What makes a great RPG?

The type of enchantment wasn't super-important because you had those like accessory items you could add to the rifle to make it do certain types of damage. Like, I had a bunch of skills that procced off shock damage, and I was using a rifle that did poison damage but I added the item (some kind of anti-demon ammunition iirc) that makes it do shock damage so it was activating all my crazy lightning stuff anyway.
 
Interesting because I play completely differently. I seldom make more than one character and hardly feel motivated to replay any of the TES games besides MW. And even in MW it is only for the role playing and nostalgia factor, not because I think a new class would offer me something interesting or different (because sadly, most of the time they don't)

I've played like 100 hours or something now and am still on my first character. I obviously regret making her a mage, because magic is utterly castrated and way less fun in Skyrim, but I feel like I have to stick with it at this point :lol: Skyrim has so few meaningful differences between races and classes that I don't feel tempted to replay the game at all, I''ll just finish the interesting parts with my one character and then scratch it.

However I play every TES game exactly like @Lexicus . I always wander off first, start two or more guilds and sometimes finish them, explore the most interesting dungeons and cities and then get to work on the main quest. That way you already have a network of locations to travel to, people to sell to, enchanters, smiths, spellmakers.. And so on.



That game sounds super intriguing. I'll do that after I finish my Skyrim / Diablo II run.
I've played over a 1000 hours in all of the recent TES games, most in MW, but I find to enjoy them as a RPG you have to provide the limitations yourself. Works better for me than the arbitrary limitations of D&D style classes.
Despite all I've heard and all the screenshots and reviews of the Elder Scrolls series of games, most of it couched in glorious, glowing praise, all completely turn me off of the idea of playing these RPG's, because they strike me as intrinsically having elements at their core that I find repugnant in such games, and make them unplayable.

And best RPG ever? Planescape: Torment of course.

Planscape: Torment was horrid from my perspective, except for the visuals. The characters were really wonky and unsympathetic, and I don't like computer RPG's where all the characters are pre-made for me at all.

An episode of Grey's Anatomy is better-written and better-acted than Mass Effect or Fallout.

Yes, these games were highly cheesy indeed, and the Fallout series was too dependent on pop culture references and humour I found very off-putting and not at all funny. Also, Mass Effect had the "cumulative moral story determination metre through almost every action and dialogue choice" which the majority of BioWare games have that I find quite annoying, and the fact that the PoV character in the first two Mass Effect games, regardless of gender or class, has the same last name, under which their always addressed along with their rank as, with a different spelling, my RL last name, is too close to home for suspension of disbelief.
 
Planescape: Torment was horrid from my perspective, except for the visuals. The characters were really wonky and unsympathetic, and I don't like computer RPG's where all the characters are pre-made for me at all.

Annah is initially unlikeable, Dak'kon is a stoic warrior and you have to probe Ignis for a while to find out his backstory, but definitely not Morte or Fall-from-Grace.
 
Planscape: Torment was horrid from my perspective, except for the visuals. The characters were really wonky and unsympathetic, and I don't like computer RPG's where all the characters are pre-made for me at all.

Sorry, I will not be paying any attention to your opinions from here on.
 
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Combat gameplay wise, I prefer systems which generally involve combining my character's stats/abilities with my brain. I don't want to have to do things like dodging or blocking incoming attacks, or aiming my spells/arrows. My character should have attributes and skills which define how good they are at those things instead of basing them on my (bloody awful) reactions. Give me tactical combat, not action combat.

I'll just add a side note on "action RPGs". I don't really consider them RPGs - and I don't mean that as a criticism of them, it's just a reflection of them providing very little opportunity to roleplay - but I do enjoy that type of game. Jumping in, killing loads of monsters and finding some cool loot is fun and relaxing. When it comes to designing them, frankly, just look at PoE. The current "clearspeed meta" is exactly what I want. Fast and, for the most part, quite simple killing of shed loads of monsters using cool looking abilities. It's not the deep and immersive game I look for in a RPG, but it's a great way to work off some stress after a hectic day's work. And if the skill tree looks terrifying, well, that's what online guides are for.
Well said!
 
Well, in morrowind NPCs were mostly stationary, they rarely moved around and were basically tied to a certain location. Skyrim (and Oblivion I think) tried to surpass this limitation by the way of more nuanced personalized stats and pathing for each character. You could meet the travelling khajit caravan outside Whiterun, or during the blizzard at the foot of the mountain in Dawnstar, or elsewhere - trade some goods with them, listen to another twisted skooma-inspired story.. NPCs were trying to live in this world - going to bed at night, sometimes crossing vast distances to perform chores, or, in case of Maiq, become a completely random encounter.

I think it’s a terrific opportunity and a field to further explore by modders and devs alike, not only in specific quests, but in world-building in general. A vastly expanded set of stats, goals, agendas & allegiances for each in game character could provide the foundation for an immersive, living world.
 
What makes a good JRPG for me is turn based combat, a world map with towns and dungeons and challenging super bosses after the main plot is over.

For Western RPG's you can't go wrong following The Witcher 3's example.
 
Something I'd like to see in an RPG is the ability to fail. Even strategy games these days are loathe to challenge the player, because the game needs to know what to do if the player fails.
I've been playing XCOM 2 lately, which isn't really an RPG, but it does have some RPG elements and has, imho, a good degree of difficulty and yet the campaign doesn't stall if you suffer an ignominious defeat. The game's mission generator can occasionally give you a mission that's all-but unwinnable and, once in a while, you can maneuver your soldiers perfectly and still get unlucky, an enemy rolls high and kills one of your soldiers. Sometimes, your best outcome is to get your soldiers out alive, dust yourself off, and move on to the next mission.

Someone above mentioned how annoying the level-scaling in Skyrim is. I haven't played that game enough to experience it, but just the idea turns me off. I'd like to see an RPG go the other way, and hand you very little on a plate. For instance, I don't like campaign maps that section the world into "level zones", so you know in advance where you shouldn't go until you're ready.

Three other games I'm thinking of are also not quite RPGs, but have some elements that an RPG could emulate: The Long Dark, Far Cry Primal, and Subnautica are primarily exploration and survival games, and they all have animals that you aren't even really meant to fight, that will usually just kill you, and you just have to run. The Long Dark's "survival mode" even has mandatory perma-death, so if a grizzly bear charges you, your game is probably over.
 
I find it odd (perhaps, even disturbing), that on this thread, not only are the Elder Scrolls games receiving by far the lion's share of bandwidth, it seems almost everyone posting here just ASSUMES and takes for granted some bizarre, unwritten rule that someone has decided that these games are already and automatically the standard against which all others must be judged - the assumed mainline that every other RPG is either found utterly wanting or has some qualities that are done better or different. But, to be honest, this automatic assumption of Elder Scrolls as being the golden standard and default counter-weights of the scales for any other RPG, and the general close to unquestioning, unspoken, default consensus thereof - that I've also seen elsewhere on the Internet - I find a bit off-putting and it's severely limiting and skewing the conversation immensely. This bias didn't always exist in my experience.
 
I think that bias is only in your mind.
 
If that bias exists, it's for a good reason. No other RPG has as much market share and customization as Elder Scrolls. It is the easiest way to have a conversation.

"This is better than Elder Scrolls" or "This is worse than Elder Scrolls" is a more relatable discussion than "This is worse than an obscure game only three people played back in 2003".
 
Having lots of free time. I can get sucked into most RPGs, but my desire to play them has decreased considering how long they take.
 
Level scaling isn't inherently bad, and in open world games it's even necessary. I'll even go further and say that while the level scaling in Oblivion was gamebreakingly bad, the level scaling in Skyrim was pretty good.
I'm fine with some areas being gated off by very strong enemies. Exploring, running away and coming back later is fun, but alternating between trivial and overwhelming challenges because you didn't explore the locations in the right order is not. A game that allows you to go wherever you want needs some way to dynamically adjust the difficulty and a combat system with a good balance between character stats and player skill. Many games screw up the latter and make enemies that are two or three levels above you unbeatable.
That's the problem with Skyrim. The entire combat system is too dependent on stats and leaves very little room for timing or tactics which makes the scaling far too obvious.
 
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If that bias exists, it's for a good reason. No other RPG has as much market share and customization as Elder Scrolls. It is the easiest way to have a conversation.

"This is better than Elder Scrolls" or "This is worse than Elder Scrolls" is a more relatable discussion than "This is worse than an obscure game only three people played back in 2003".
World of Warcraft has more than twice as many players on it's record as Skyrim. And WoW is the source of more Internet memes, including the notable, "kek," (stand-in for "lol"), or, "<blank> was just a setback," or "YOU ARE NOT PREPARED!," which some online use, but don't even know the origin of. I think Skyrim only has the "arrow in the knee" one that is equally well-known.
 
When ever someone says 'combat system' in connection with TES it seems to me like an exaggeration.
 
World of Warcraft has more than twice as many players on it's record as Skyrim. And WoW is the source of more Internet memes, including the notable, "kek," (stand-in for "lol"), or, "<blank> was just a setback," or "YOU ARE NOT PREPARED!," which some online use, but don't even know the origin of. I think Skyrim only has the "arrow in the knee" one that is equally well-known.

MMORPGs are an entirely different kettle of fish. Using one of them as a standard in a discussion about RPGs would be like saying "Ford makes the number one selling truck, so they should be the standard in this conversation about blenders."
 
Level scaling isn't inherently bad, and in open world games it's even necessary. I'll even go further and say that while the level scaling in Oblivion was gamebreakingly bad, the level scaling in Skyrim was pretty good.
I'm fine with some areas being gated off by very strong enemies. Exploring, running away and coming back later is fun, but alternating between trivial and overwhelming challenges because you didn't explore the locations in the right order is not. A game that allows you to go wherever you want needs some way to dynamically adjust the difficulty and a combat system with a good balance between character stats and player skill. Many games screw up the latter and make enemies that are two or three levels above you unbeatable.
That's the problem with Skyrim. The entire combat system is too dependent on stats and leaves very little room for timing or tactics which makes the scaling fat too obvious.
I don't think it's inherently bad, but it's maybe a little lazy, and it's definitely not necessary. What you're getting at here is one or both of two issues that any game needs to address: Guiding the player to challenges suited to her and her character's abilities, and communicating the challenge level to the player (and perhaps also the reward for success or penalty for failure) before she commits to facing it. If the player encounters too many challenges that are either trivial or overwhelming - nevermind yo-yoing between the two - the game has been poorly designed.

One method of "gatekeeping" is some kind of in-game "key" that a player needs to find, earn or build before moving on to more challenging regions. In Subnautica, there's no character-progression, the player's capacity to handle the challenges is all based on the equipment she crafts. Vehicles are rated for dive depth, and greater dangers lurk in deeper waters. The game is open-world, and you're allowed to swim into waters you're unequipped for, and you can drive your minisub into depths that will crush it.

Another method of guiding the player to appropriate challenges is the "conning" you get in MMOs. The game visually displays the challenge presented by a potential adversary. It's a bit heavy-handed, and the visuals can be intrusive, but it gives the player the information she needs and lets her choose whether to bite off more than she can chew.

Finally, some games - The Long Dark and Far Cry Primal are the examples I've chosen - leave it up to the player to learn the environment (that's the core of any exploration game, obviously). Both of those games rely on the player starting out with some real-world knowledge, that a grizzly bear and a sabertooth tiger are dangerous and deer are a good source of food, and then figuring out the animal's behavior and their character's capabilities within the game. Subnautica needs to help the player more, because the whole point of the game is that it's another world. Even so, the predators kind of look toothy and threatening, and when you wander into a dangerous zone early in the game, your character's in-game computer says something like "Leviathan-class fauna detected." Games with lots of different adversaries may need to help the player catalogue and remember things as they go - The Long Dark has only 5, real-world animals, so it's not a chore to distinguish a rabbit from a wolf and remember their behaviors. A game set in a more complex and alien 'biosphere' needs to help the player more than that. Deciding whether the character would know more about the world than the player does is important, too. In Subnautica, your character has crash-landed on an unexplored alien planet, and is just as lost as the player is, and the game proceeds accordingly, but provides with a handheld scanner and portable computer to learn about the animals and record the information for later reference.
 
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