What, or Who, is the Middle Class?

[warpus]

I'm an aristocrat then

I dine around 10. I guess that's mostly a big city vs small city thing. Big city people tend to dine later.

From my experience everyone in Peru eats dinner at 8-10pm, and lunch at 2pm or so. In North America dinner is eaten a lot earlier.

I like both approaches, but it sucks when restaurants are closed 5-6pm (in Peru), when you're not used to it yet.

 

[luiz]

From my experience everyone in Peru eats dinner at 8-10pm, and lunch at 2pm or so. In North America dinner is eaten a lot earlier.

I like both approaches, but it sucks when restaurants are closed 5-6pm (in Peru), when you're not used to it yet.

If they have dinner at 8-10 pm why do their restaurants close at 5-6?

Brazilians also dine between 8-10, but our restaurants stay open until midnight or even later, at least in the big cities.

 

[Farm Boy]

my real problem is that my hobbies involve team sports, mountains, and women, all of which are real deficient in rural areas with cheap houses. (And fine dining, but I could pass up on that if I had the others.)

Not looking hard enough then! Either that or you're doing something wrong and making them harder to find than they are.

 

[Archbob]

The homeless guy making $0 a year is dead. (Unless he's living off the land entirely. Which is really, really, unusual these days.)

But seriously, it depends how you live. If you live beyond your means the future is bleak and unsustainable no matter how large your income.

But if you can live within your means, and crucially can afford an adequate diet, then the future is rosy no matter how small your income.

Oh, but wait, non-universal health care. Yeah. Right.

By $0, I mean beggers and people living entirely off welfare. There a lower limit and below that you can only eat what is available and not an adequate diet.

 

[Zelig]

Not looking hard enough then! Either that or you're doing something wrong and making them harder to find than they are.

For ultimate leagues, it's not really a matter of looking hard... you essentially need about a 100k minimum metro population to run a competitive ultimate league and to have appropriate facilities (i.e. proper-sized indoor turf) for winter play. There are a dozen such metro areas in Canada within day-trip range of worthwhile ski resorts.

Women/friends aren't hard to find, but it's a numbers game to get good ones.

 

[Farm Boy]

I suppose if one wants a steady stream of novelty in women/friends playing the numbers game of a metropolitan area would probably help, yes. I often forget to build that in. I was more thinking that if you aren't commuting to work there are probably very workable rural areas in striking distance of met areas for game days and ski days. I'm probably also thinking country country houses, which do come with their own time sinks and inconveniences, particularly in winter. They also may not save you as much as you might think(especially if they're cheap, or aged), if they're exposed outside of city limits and you need to truck in LP instead of being hooked to the natural gas lines.

 

[Borachio]

By $0, I mean beggers and people living entirely off welfare. There a lower limit and below that you can only eat what is available and not an adequate diet.

But, you see, begging and welfare payments are income streams just like any others.

There is a lower limit on what you can eat and not suffer healthwise, of course.

 

[warpus]

If they have dinner at 8-10 pm why do their restaurants close at 5-6?

Nobody eats during those hours, so (from what I saw) a lot of places just close down for a while. Then they wake up from their naps, etc. and re-open.

 

[Archbob]

But, you see, begging and welfare payments are income streams just like any others.

There is a lower limit on what you can eat and not suffer healthwise, of course.

But I would say if you are at or above twice the poverty line, you are in a different class than the ones below the line.

 

[Borachio]

The poverty line is surprisingly tricky to define.

I suppose we could define it by reference to how much it costs to maintain a human body in optimal health.

But that's a movable feast (pardon the pun).

 

[EgonSpengler]

Related to housing prices, I read this morning that a New York City charity tallies the population of homeless people sleeping in the city's emergency shelters past 60,000, setting a new record. 25,000 of them are children, also a record. Anecdotally, I feel like I've seen many more people sleeping in doorways and in subway stations the last couple of years than I remember seeing in the previous 30.

 

[luiz]

Related to housing prices, I read this morning that a New York City charity tallies the population of homeless people sleeping in the city's emergency shelters past 60,000, setting a new record. 25,000 of them are children, also a record. Anecdotally, I feel like I've seen many more people sleeping in doorways and in subway stations the last couple of years than I remember seeing in the previous 30.

If I were homeless I'd go to Miami or LA or somewhere else with mild weather. Being homeless in NYC seems particularly miserable.

In Brazil the Southern Metropolises of Curitiba and Porto Alegre have distinctly less homeless people than metropolises elsewhere in the country, in large part because they're the only ones (together with São Paulo) where it actually gets cold in the winter. But it's nowhere near the cold seen in NYC.

 

[Zelig]

If I were homeless I'd go to Miami or LA or somewhere else with mild weather. Being homeless in NYC seems particularly miserable.

In Brazil the Southern Metropolises of Curitiba and Porto Alegre have distinctly less homeless people than metropolises elsewhere in the country, in large part because they're the only ones (together with São Paulo) where it actually gets cold in the winter. But it's nowhere near the cold seen in NYC.

Eh, NYC is balmy. Winnipeg has homeless people.

 

[luiz]

Eh, NYC is balmy. Winnipeg has homeless people.

Yikes. It's a mystery to me how someone with the willpower and endurance to be homeless in that frozen wasteland ended up homeless to begin with.

 

[warpus]

If I were homeless I'd go to Miami or LA or somewhere else with mild weather. Being homeless in NYC seems particularly miserable.

How do you get there if you're homeless? Walk?

 

[luiz]

How do you get there if you're homeless? Walk?

Hitchhike on freight trains, trucks, whatever. You don't think all those homeless people in NYC or San Francisco were actually born there, do you?

 

[warpus]

I don't think many of them are there by choice. Relocating thousands kilometres away is not going to be easy for someone who is homeless.

 

[luiz]

I don't think many of them are there by choice. Relocating thousands kilometres away is not going to be easy for someone who is homeless.

Of course they're there by choice. Homeless people go to places where they can make more money and find easier shelter. There's a reason why homeless people are concentrated on large urban centers and pretty much do not exist in small country towns.

I'm not saying relocating is easy for them, but they do it all the time nevertheless. Ask a homeless guy where he's from and how he got to to his present city next time you talk to one and you'll be surprised to find that more likely than not, he traveled a lot.

 

[warpus]

Perhaps a lot of have relocated before, but what I'm saying is that relocating for a homeless person can be an adventure - and not just an easy "oh I'm going to buy a train ticket, hire a moving company, and move to Florida" type of operation. In many cases they have no idea what to expect in a new city - and would prefer to stick around where they are, since they're in some ways "settled". That's why I think your suggestion to "just move to a warmer place" is not very realistic for many of them.

 

[luiz]

Perhaps a lot of have relocated before, but what I'm saying is that relocating for a homeless person can be an adventure - and not just an easy "oh I'm going to buy a train ticket, hire a moving company, and move to Florida" type of operation. In many cases they have no idea what to expect in a new city - and would prefer to stick around where they are, since they're in some ways "settled". That's why I think your suggestion to "just move to a warmer place" is not very realistic for many of them.

Well it's an adventure for sure, but it's not like such adventure will disrupt their business meetings or family life.

Most of them relocated to their current residence anyway, my point is that if I were one instead of relocating from wherever to NYC I would relocate from wherever to Miami.

For some reason the homeless of California appear to be specially mobile.