What Video Games Have You Been Playing, Part 10: Or; A Shameful Display!

[AdamCrock]

AK47.

ummm I mean HK 47

 

[Timsup2nothin]

This conversation is making me feel even worse. Last night I installed Oblivion in a fit of "I have this cool gigantic monitor." I had this idea that I could do all the graphics upgrade modding that I've always skipped in the past, and the usual complete gutting of all Bethsoft's game mechanics that is required to make a playable game out of it. I had momentarily forgotten what a labor intensive process this is. I see no possibility that I will complete the modding process and have any inclination to play the resulting game. My goal at this point is to plow through as far as I can, leave good notes so I can finish the next time I have the urge without having to start from scratch, and not get so disgusted that I uninstall the whole dungpile and forget about it.

 

[Broken_Erika]

All the talk about Mass Effect made me want to play it again. I...think I screwed up.

I used to do that in UT2004 Vehicle invasion all the time......plus occasionally running over certain monsters an having my APC flung 500 meters into the air, bouncing off the top of the map box, falling to the ground and exploding......

 

[AdamCrock]

This conversation is making me feel even worse. Last night I installed Oblivion in a fit of "I have this cool gigantic monitor." I had this idea that I could do all the graphics upgrade modding that I've always skipped in the past, and the usual complete gutting of all Bethsoft's game mechanics that is required to make a playable game out of it. I had momentarily forgotten what a labor intensive process this is. I see no possibility that I will complete the modding process and have any inclination to play the resulting game. My goal at this point is to plow through as far as I can, leave good notes so I can finish the next time I have the urge without having to start from scratch, and not get so disgusted that I uninstall the whole dungpile and forget about it.

Yes I know how are You feeling because great many times I felt exactly the same . It's a shame Bethesda never did finish their products properly. They should really consider hiring best modders for the next TES iterations !!

 

[Akka]

I rarely bother with graphical mod (they usually are more pain to set up and resolve conflicts than they are worth), and I look for mods which comprehensively change the parts I dislike.
For Oblivion, I just install OOO, my script which allows me to not bother with min-maxing leveling up and my script which massively reduces the number of Oblivion Gates and I'm more or less done with it.

I just can't play excessively auto-scaled RPG. Level scaling is probably my single most hated mechanism in the entire video game universe. I might tolerate and look the other way if the game is more or less about action (like in Grim Dawn), but an immersion-based game with level scaling is just something that makes me want to punch the designers.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I rarely bother with graphical mod (they usually are more pain to set up and resolve conflicts than they are worth), and I look for mods which comprehensively change the parts I dislike.
For Oblivion, I just install OOO, my script which allows me to not bother with min-maxing leveling up and my script which massively reduces the number of Oblivion Gates and I'm more or less done with it.

I just can't play excessively auto-scaled RPG. Level scaling is probably my single most hated mechanism in the entire video game universe. I might tolerate and look the other way if the game is more or less about action (like in Grim Dawn), but an immersion-based game with level scaling is just something that makes me want to punch the designers.

That has been more or less my approach to Oblivion as well, though I use Fran's instead of Oscuro's to fix the scaling issues and I also gut and replace the stealth system, and the magic system. I just thought that since the reason I was thinking I was willing to make the effort again was the new monitor the graphics are sort of dated, and in for a penny in for a pound. However, I was pretty quickly reminded that just fixing the gameplay I'm already in for a pound...or more like a tenner. For all the people who say "but Bethsoft games are sooooooo moddable it makes up for them selling utter crap that's nowhere near complete" I have a question...if they are so easy to mod how come the first step in trying to fix them is downloading a whole set of modding toolkit stuff just to manage the installation of mods?

Morrowind was easy to mod. I wanted one sword to have some different stats, so I changed them. When you have to rebuild the entire game pretty much from the ground up modding isn't easy, even if someone else did the heavy lifting.

 

[Lexicus]

Skyrim is mostly a huge map with tons of dots, with the vast majority of dots being in essence a completely linear situation (linear caves, linear quest or even string of quests, etc.). There is a large amount of choice in what you will play style and obviously the freedom of open world, but very little of what you actually do has any amount of influence on the game and the "single corridor" design of most caves/forts means that even the gameplay is pretty forced (it can be summed up in 90 % of cases by : "enter the dungeon, go straight ahead killing everything, end up at the entrance of the dungeon, done").

The actual "choices" tend to be rare, binary and sometimes feels that they exists just for the sake of claiming there is a choice (the "blades vs dragonbro" is really forced, the "who will bang the girl" in the first village is ridiculously shallow and rather pointless, not to add that the "reward" is just contradictory with the them).
The most egregious cases are the guilds, which are very short, with usually no choice at all, and which just constraint you into completely idiotic situations. For example (obviously spoilers ahead) :

- The Companions. You're forced to become a werewolf, even when it's obviously a completely effed up idea, and THEN you end up trying to fix this situation because, 'lo and behold, it WAS a terrible idea, who would have guessed. No possibility to refuse, no choice.

- Worse (worst ?), the Thieve Guild. You're a effing THIEF, burglaring and stealing and doing all sort of nasty deeds for your own benefit. Skyrim logical conclusion from greed and selifishness ? You need to sacrifice your soul and enslave yourself to an eternity of servitude after death for the sake of the guild, of course ! (wait, wat ?)
It's especially infuriating because you are given no choice to refuse, BUT the NPC rubs the lack of choice by ASKING YOU IF YOU'RE SURE ABOUT IT. And you have a single answer : "yes I'll do it". FFS.

- The Dark Brotherhood at least allows you to chose if you're going for or against them. But it's so half-arsed if you chose the later (somehow, the Empire knows where to find them if you do that, and they send you alone instead of throwing their elite forces, because... because !) that it kills quite a bit the actual meaning of choice.

So basically, every instance is a linear corridor FPS without choice (the worst of the "linear design"), and the scaling means the overworld lacks substance : whatever you do, wherever you go, it's always leveled so it makes little difference (the worst of the "sandbox" design).
Skyrim is fun to play because it's better handling and reactivity than previous entries in the serie, because despite the linearity it has a HUGE amount of content, because it's moddable so you can fix some horrible design decisions with it and because the graphics are very, very immersive. But it's probably the single most overrated and overhyped game in history. It's not "bad" (I DID play it for dozens of hours after all), but the chasm between the amount of sales it had and it's actual quality, ESPECIALLY considering the massive dumbing down each TES has gone through since Morrowind, makes me quite a bit salty.

I'm basically in agreement. Do you have any examples of well-done games where there is significant player choice in how the story unfolds? I think of Halo (the original trilogy and Reach, anyway, I didn't play any of the games beyond that) as having a lot of great examples of tactically non-linear play (ie, you actually do have meaningful choice in how to approach most combat situations) for a counterpoint to the linearity of dungeon design in Skyrim.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I'm basically in agreement. Do you have any examples of well-done games where there is significant player choice in how the story unfolds? I think of Halo (the original trilogy and Reach, anyway, I didn't play any of the games beyond that) as having a lot of great examples of tactically non-linear play (ie, you actually do have meaningful choice in how to approach most combat situations) for a counterpoint to the linearity of dungeon design in Skyrim.

The funny part being that by technical "standard" Halo is considered to be totally linear. You may have a variety of possible approaches to the scenario at hand, but when you complete it you are on to the 'next in line.' Personally, I find that far more interesting than a "sandbox full of linear holes," which is a description i am marking down for future use, but it does fly in the face of the various arguments about "freedom of play" that are commonly spewed.

 

[EgonSpengler]

I'm basically in agreement. Do you have any examples of well-done games where there is significant player choice in how the story unfolds? I think of Halo (the original trilogy and Reach, anyway, I didn't play any of the games beyond that) as having a lot of great examples of tactically non-linear play (ie, you actually do have meaningful choice in how to approach most combat situations) for a counterpoint to the linearity of dungeon design in Skyrim.

For tactical choices, I thought X-COM and X-COM2 were excellent. I don't remember the player having much say in how the story unfolded, though. The player could choose from among various side-missions, and whether and when to undertake missions on the campaign map, but I can't remember how those choices interacted with the ongoing story.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'm basically in agreement. Do you have any examples of well-done games where there is significant player choice in how the story unfolds? I think of Halo (the original trilogy and Reach, anyway, I didn't play any of the games beyond that) as having a lot of great examples of tactically non-linear play (ie, you actually do have meaningful choice in how to approach most combat situations) for a counterpoint to the linearity of dungeon design in Skyrim.

If you want tactical variance dungeon crawl stone soup has minimal graphics but many ways to solve particular encounters, and many more choices that will kill you and force you to start over.

In terms of written story variance based on player choice it is incredibly rare to see this done well in gaming.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I have to throw in my usual plug for X3 here. There are multiple approaches to dealing with any situation in the gigantic sandbox*, and there is absolutely nothing telling you that you have to deal with any situation in the sandbox at all, much less in a particular order.



*I say this despite being well known in the X community for saying "There is no problem in the universe that cannot be solved with a sufficient spread of tomahawk missiles" in response to basically any and every question about tactics.

 

[Akka]

I'm basically in agreement. Do you have any examples of well-done games where there is significant player choice in how the story unfolds? I think of Halo (the original trilogy and Reach, anyway, I didn't play any of the games beyond that) as having a lot of great examples of tactically non-linear play (ie, you actually do have meaningful choice in how to approach most combat situations) for a counterpoint to the linearity of dungeon design in Skyrim.

Deus Ex is the one that jumps first to my mind. It offers complete freedom in the tactical way to advance in a level, and then pile on this by offering actual consequences about your actions. Then when you're thinking "wow, pretty good", it does a final strike by actually allowing you to change (within reason) the way the story unfold.
So then you think "oooh, clever, then I'm going to trick it" and you realize that whatever you do, the game actually responds logically. Of course you can't go completely off-rail, but it took me years to realize that some set pieces that I took for "playable cinematics" were actually offering an actual, real possibility of changing something.
Just fascinating (though, obviously, it's rather old and doesn't provide the same level of sophistication than many contemporary games, BUT at least it has a TRUE PC-centric interface which just blows out of the water anything ever done that is not named Supreme Commander).

Also, you'll love the plot. It's tailored just for guys like you


For RPG which gives you some significant influence in the story, most Bioware and Bioware-like game are obvious answers. Of course, you can't really change it, but you're given enough wriggle room to at least have your own take at how you answer and resolve whatever problems and plots you are confronted with. If you want that I dig deeper in this, I can provide with A LOT of suggestions (RPG are my favourite kind of game after all).

 

[cardgame]

The last time I downloaded Project Wingman, it must have been corrupted or something, because the main menu didn't even work

This time everything seems functional and just from five minutes I can already tell you this game is better than Ace Combat 7. Holy crap. Did I mention it's free? And apparently supports VR too (haven't tried yet)

 

[Takhisis]

I have not played ME 2 yet but it's exactly like the system in KoTOR 2 (Knights of the old Republic).- where You could sway Your companions to light/dark side and gain influence on them based on the dialogue choices. Some hidden (and most interesting) dialogues were available only with high influence (AK47 had a hilarious response when asked about love by a female character ). The downside of this system (and I concur with civver) is that You could not act like You please but You had to constantly act to please Your companions (You could not finish training with Kreia if You angered her for example) in order to get best rewarding traits and quests and otherwise great rewards.

AK47.

ummm I mean HK 47

<quip: human memories, unlike robotic ones, are unregrettedly fallible.>

 

[yung.carl.jung]

There is a large amount of choice in what you will play style

agreed with everything in your post cept this little bit. I think there is very little choice in playstyle, and if we look at actually viable playstyles there are even less. imho all builds that aren't melee with heavy armor, stealth archer and a mix of destru/conju mage just suck.

most of the perk trees in the game are completely unviable and only really there for flavor.. no one would actually use speechcraft, lockpicking, pickpocketing, smithing or light armor as their first perk tree (frankly it's impossible on legendary, and hard on master), because when you're not running around, all you do in this game is fight. crafting, lockpicking, pickpocketing, talking to NPCS are so insignificant in terms of actual playtime because pretty much every quest/dungeon revolves entirely around killing or fetching. as does the main quest and all the guilds and DLC and radiants.. when most of the games core mechanism revolve around killing enemies (both peaceful play and riddles, for example, are a complete joke in the game) then naturally only the perk trees that help with killing stuff (or survival) are viable.

skyrim is so horribly balanced that you're crippling yourself by not being a stealth archer. literally any class, regardless of skill, can do it, because sneaking is ez as hell. due to the damage modifiers I'm sure even an arrow from an unskilled mage would do more than a fireball, since destruction magic doesn't scale at all outside of a few minor perks.

you're on point about the guilds. they sucked so incredibly hard. felt like a joke. daggerfall, mw and oblivion imho all had really good guild quests (df and mw having even more factions!) that felt meaningful and incredibly rewarding.

 

[Ajidica]

you're on point about the guilds. they sucked so incredibly hard. felt like a joke. daggerfall, mw and oblivion imho all had really good guild quests (df and mw having even more factions!) that felt meaningful and incredibly rewarding.

Which Morrowind guild quests are you referring to because just about all of them were "Go there and retrieve the Amulet of Quest Progression" from quest kiosks. Skyrim did a much better job (though still not particularly good job) at integrating plot and character development into the quest lines.
Plus, it is worth keeping in mind Bethesda games are never going to have as strong of character interactions as, say, the Witcher. The Witcher just needs to have the character interactions make sense for Geralt, Bethesda needs to make sure the interactions can work as many different types of characters as possible.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

This conversation is making me feel even worse. Last night I installed Oblivion in a fit of "I have this cool gigantic monitor." I had this idea that I could do all the graphics upgrade modding that I've always skipped in the past, and the usual complete gutting of all Bethsoft's game mechanics that is required to make a playable game out of it. I had momentarily forgotten what a labor intensive process this is. I see no possibility that I will complete the modding process and have any inclination to play the resulting game. My goal at this point is to plow through as far as I can, leave good notes so I can finish the next time I have the urge without having to start from scratch, and not get so disgusted that I uninstall the whole dungpile and forget about it.

don't do it, it's not worth it at all. even if you get a good mod setup, the game CTDs a lot and it's just an unpleasant experience.

What I think is really worth though is Morroblivion. it's ingenious. You start out in Morrowind, the entire gameworld is there, and when you feel ready you can set off to Oblivion (cyrodil) and the shivering isles and basically play both games with the same character. it's honestly just morrowind with the better oblivion mechanics, nothing was gutted. it's easy to install, too, and you don't need many or any additional mods. OOO and MMM are great. they work with Morroblivion, too.

Which Morrowind guild quests are you referring to because just about all of them were "Go there and retrieve the Amulet of Quest Progression" from quest kiosks. Skyrim did a much better job (though still not particularly good job) at integrating plot and character development into the quest lines.
Plus, it is worth keeping in mind Bethesda games are never going to have as strong of character interactions as, say, the Witcher. The Witcher just needs to have the character interactions make sense for Geralt, Bethesda needs to make sure the interactions can work as many different types of characters as possible.

all the factions are really interesting and involve a decent amount of actual diplomacy and some really cool questlines, especially all of the telvanni quests. those are some of the best and craziest ever. building your own tower positively takes forever, but it's incredibly satisfying.

I thought both the standard guilds were good, too. even the first quests in the mages guild, just studying and picking the local fauna with no fighting involved, was really simplistic and immersive to me. the mages guild has the whole conspiracy and espionage storyline and it has some actual decision making in the end. warrior guild is admittedly mostly "kill stuff", but at least it was well done and nicely weaved into the game world. I also love the rat quest and the whole weird pillow obsession thing. the rats are also actually a pretty decent challenge for a new character and would often kill you.

I don't really care about character integration at all, decisionmaking is seperate for me.

I rarely bother with graphical mod (they usually are more pain to set up and resolve conflicts than they are worth), and I look for mods which comprehensively change the parts I dislike.
For Oblivion, I just install OOO, my script which allows me to not bother with min-maxing leveling up and my script which massively reduces the number of Oblivion Gates and I'm more or less done with it.

I just can't play excessively auto-scaled RPG. Level scaling is probably my single most hated mechanism in the entire video game universe. I might tolerate and look the other way if the game is more or less about action (like in Grim Dawn), but an immersion-based game with level scaling is just something that makes me want to punch the designers.

exact same as in I rarely bother with gfx mods and try to dive as deep as possibly and alter the actual core mechanics instead of having symptomatic fixes. also agree on unnecessary scaling.

would you like a skyrim with an almost entirely deleveled (as in static) world and an experience system based on discovery, crafting, ability use, quests and enemy kills? how would you delevel the game and change the core mechanics?

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

I used to do that in UT2004 Vehicle invasion all the time......plus occasionally running over certain monsters an having my APC flung 500 meters into the air, bouncing off the top of the map box, falling to the ground and exploding......

I find driving the Mako in ME1 oddly fun because it just bounces and goes flying all over the damn place. A lot of the maps have mountains all over the place which only makes it even more silly.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

don't do it, it's not worth it at all. even if you get a good mod setup, the game CTDs a lot and it's just an unpleasant experience.

Should have listened here and just turned back. Works great indoors, instant crash outdoors. Troubleshoot mods, or play game that was actually done properly by people who got paid for it? That is the question.

 

[H4run]

Divinity Original Sin 2, trying to get hook at it, but I still don't get used with the camera control, and its inability to be adjust vertically is really disturb the game flow. Thinking to revisit Origin, or trying Pillar of Eternity 2, but its heavy reference to gods and afterlife really put me off.