What would your D&D stats be?

[Harv]

I could do that in 12 minutes when I was 11 and short.

Then you run 5k in 19 or 20 minutes or even less now if you are a runner?

 

[Evie]

Given how godawful the design for skill checks in DnD is (D20+skill modifier that's a fraction of your skill), it doesn't surprise me in the least that they pretend those things don't require any skill check. When your entire skill check system is built around high-randomess, low-skill-relevance, you have to. (The fact that DnD 5e barely even acknowledges skills and then only in relatively minor roles make it clear how much of a joke the system is)

And of course, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't average dex carry no bonuses to skill checks anyway?

But in any event using the relative inadequacies of your system to pretend people today aren't dextrous is a joke.

(As for horseback riding vs car driving (assuming a well-trained, well-behaved horse and no strenous riding, jumping, etc*, just standard trot and the ilk), while it require some dexterity, comparing it to the reflexes one needs to not kill people while rolling at 100 km/h is...questionable? (I've been on a horseback at a trot, and I've been behind the driving wheel, and one of these is considerably easier than the other by any fair test).

*Which no reasonable system would allow without a check

 

[Antilogic]

Err, for some reason I read that as a 3 mile run in 16 minutes instead of a 2. I have scraped by that line on a 2 miler.

 

[Zelig]

Then you run 5k in 19 or 20 minutes or even less now if you are a runner?

Maybe, I don't typically race, so I'm not sure what my 5k time would be - comfortable jogging pace is under 25. It's not particularly relevant though, my point was a counter-example to "being short makes two miles in 16 minutes difficult".

Given how godawful the design for skill checks in DnD is (D20+skill modifier that's a fraction of your skill), it doesn't surprise me in the least that they pretend those things don't require any skill check. When your entire skill check system is built around high-randomess, low-skill-relevance, you have to. (The fact that DnD 5e barely even acknowledges skills and then only in relatively minor roles make it clear how much of a joke the system is)

And of course, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't average dex carry no bonuses to skill checks anyway?

But in any event using the relative inadequacies of your system to pretend people today aren't dextrous is a joke.

(As for horseback riding vs car driving (assuming a well-trained, well-behaved horse and no strenous riding, jumping, etc*, just standard trot and the ilk), while it require some dexterity, comparing it to the reflexes one needs to not kill people while rolling at 100 km/h is...questionable? (I've been on a horseback at a trot, and I've been behind the driving wheel, and one of these is considerably easier than the other by any fair test).

*Which no reasonable system would allow without a check

Tabletop RPGs aren't meant to be a mathematically rigorous reality simulation, anything a DM can't remember in real-time is too complicated. It's easy for a DM to make a real-time call as to whether an arbitrary skill requires a check or not, and if so, he can pick the appropriate probability... which is pretty much what any tabletop system boils down to.

Completely irrespective of D&D, I don't see car driving improving people's dexterity or requiring significant skill. I was on a horse once, and it was felt very similar to my first experience driving a car. I'm certain that the average person who regularly rides a horse is much better at horses relative to an elite competitor than the average city car commuter is compared to Michael Schumacher.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Hmm, so I took the long quiz and got Lawful Neutral Elf Bard/Cleric (2nd/1st Level)

Details:

Spoiler :

Ability Scores:
Strength- 9
Dexterity- 11
Constitution- 9
Intelligence- 14
Wisdom- 12
Charisma- 11

Alignment:
Lawful Neutral- A lawful neutral character acts as law, tradition, or a personal code directs him. Order and organization are paramount to him. He may believe in personal order and live by a code or standard, or he may believe in order for all and favor a strong, organized government. Lawful neutral is the best alignment you can be because it means you are reliable and honorable without being a zealot. However, lawful neutral can be a dangerous alignment when it seeks to eliminate all freedom, choice, and diversity in society.

Race:
Elves are known for their poetry, song, and magical arts, but when danger threatens they show great skill with weapons and strategy. Elves can live to be over 700 years old and, by human standards, are slow to make friends and enemies, and even slower to forget them. Elves are slim and stand 4.5 to 5.5 feet tall. They have no facial or body hair, prefer comfortable clothes, and possess unearthly grace. Many others races find them hauntingly beautiful.

Primary Class:
Bards- Bards often serve as negotiators, messengers, scouts, and spies. They love to accompany heroes (and villains) to witness heroic (or villainous) deeds firsthand, since a bard who can tell a story from personal experience earns renown among his fellows. A bard casts arcane spells without any advance preparation, much like a sorcerer. Bards also share some specialized skills with rogues, and their knowledge of item lore is nearly unmatched. A high Charisma score allows a bard to cast high-level spells.

Secondary Class:
Clerics- Clerics act as intermediaries between the earthly and the divine (or infernal) worlds. A good cleric helps those in need, while an evil cleric seeks to spread his patron's vision of evil across the world. All clerics can heal wounds and bring people back from the brink of death, and powerful clerics can even raise the dead. Likewise, all clerics have authority over undead creatures, and they can turn away or even destroy these creatures. Clerics are trained in the use of simple weapons, and can use all forms of armor and shields without penalty, since armor does not interfere with the casting of divine spells. In addition to his normal complement of spells, every cleric chooses to focus on two of his deity's domains. These domains grants the cleric special powers, and give him access to spells that he might otherwise never learn. A cleric's Wisdom score should be high, since this determines the maximum spell level that he can cast.

Guess Lawful Neutral makes sense. In terms of stats, CHA is higher than I expected, but I suppose amongst my circle of friends that makes sense. INT and WIS seem a bit higher than expected, again, but whatever.

I found the religion questions on this test a bit odd, though.

 

[Evie]

Still disagreed on pretty much every aspect of what you say. At this point, it seems to me you're going to find reasons to look down on modern dex simply because it's a physical stat and you're utterly convinced the modern world is bad at everything physical.

Does the fact that we're worse than peasants at everything physical imply we are in turn better at everything non-physical, or does it imply that peasants, being better than us at physical, equal at cha and wis and (I presume) inferior at INT, are just plain superior beings to modern people?

The former (we being better at wis and cha) seems to be waaaay questionable, and the later make my case for me about rose-colored glasses

 

[Harv]

Maybe, I don't typically race, so I'm not sure what my 5k time would be - comfortable jogging pace is under 25. It's not particularly relevant though, my point was a counter-example to "being short makes two miles in 16 minutes difficult".

By run, I meant run well, then your run time will indicate your VO2 and from that, your endurance. If you stink at running, then you have another cardiovascular test to get VO2. Dwarves, if I am not mistaken, had great Constitution, but stink at running.

So, how are you enjoying your GM / Player argument?

I found the religion questions on this test a bit odd, though.

They are trying to find out which appeals to you without directly asking what your belief set is. Your answers probably tipped the class pick.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I found the religion questions on this test a bit odd, though.

I'm guessing that people who score exceptionally high on religious questions end up being clerics or paladins.

I went looking through some old gaming-related lolpics, and here's one that sums up why you should always listen to your cat's advice:

 

[cybrxkhan]

I'm guessing that people who score exceptionally high on religious questions end up being clerics or paladins.

The questions that really puzzled me were the ones that basically asked what you thought about Western/New Age/Eastern religion. Actually, now that I think about it, perhaps I shouldn't be too puzzled; I'm guessing based on stereotypes the New Age and Eastern religions probably lean towards a more "mystical" sort of character. Of course, being of an eastern/Asian background, I naturally lean towards Eastern religion the most out of general familiarity so I felt my input there made the end results a little less accurate since I'm assuming eastern religion to me has a different connotation than to whoever made the test.

 

[Zelig]

Still disagreed on pretty much every aspect of what you say. At this point, it seems to me you're going to find reasons to look down on modern dex simply because it's a physical stat and you're utterly convinced the modern world is bad at everything physical.

Does the fact that we're worse than peasants at everything physical imply we are in turn better at everything non-physical, or does it imply that peasants, being better than us at physical, equal at cha and wis and (I presume) inferior at INT, are just plain superior beings to modern people?

The former (we being better at wis and cha) seems to be waaaay questionable, and the later make my case for me about rose-colored glasses

You're making this overly complicated... who would you take in a fist fight, modern human or medieval peasant? Who would you take in game of chess, modern human or medieval peasant?

Top athletes today are the fittest humans who have ever existed, but that doesn't affect the majority of the population that is sedentary. Half of Canadians get less than 30 minutes of exercise per week, and adults spend 70% of their waking hours sedentary.

 

[Evie]

None of which has much impact on dexterity. Or did you miss the part where I conceded on STR?

My point of view is that (average) modern human vs medieval peasant goes something like:

STR: Peasant wins (hence they win the fist fight)
DEX: Statu quo. Hasn't changed, at least not downward. Peasant win at slingshooting, we win at pool/darts/etc.
CON: FItness-wise peasant wind, health-wise we do. On the whole likely equal. Peasant win at running a mile, we win at not having dysentry.
INT: Modern wins thanks to massively upgraded education standards. We win
WIS: Statu quo. We've gotten better at some things,w wrorse at others.
CHA: Same, reflecting cultural mores of our respective times. Peasants win at medieval humor, we win at modern humor.

So if we take the 9-9-9-9-9-9 peasant as the average, I'd say something like 7-9-9-11-9-9 as the modern average. Maybe 7-9-8-12-9-9 if we really must (again, keep in mind the implication that peasants were healthier than we are). But I'm not budging on dexterity not having changed in any noticeable downard manner.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

The questions that really puzzled me were the ones that basically asked what you thought about Western/New Age/Eastern religion. Actually, now that I think about it, perhaps I shouldn't be too puzzled; I'm guessing based on stereotypes the New Age and Eastern religions probably lean towards a more "mystical" sort of character. Of course, being of an eastern/Asian background, I naturally lean towards Eastern religion the most out of general familiarity so I felt my input there made the end results a little less accurate since I'm assuming eastern religion to me has a different connotation than to whoever made the test.

It could also have to do with the perception of the Monk character class. AD&D Monks are usually thought of as the Eastern martial arts-warrior kind of character, whereas the RL western kind of monk who lives and works in a monastery would fall under the category of the Cleric character class.

Keep in mind that I'm only familiar with AD&D as far as 2nd edition. I have no idea what changes were made in later editions.

 

[cybrxkhan]

It could also have to do with the perception of the Monk character class. AD&D Monks are usually thought of as the Eastern martial arts-warrior kind of character, whereas the RL western kind of monk who lives and works in a monastery would fall under the category of the Cleric character class.

Keep in mind that I'm only familiar with AD&D as far as 2nd edition. I have no idea what changes were made in later editions.

Hmm, thanks for the explanation, that is interesting.

 

[Harv]

How much would a typical medieval male peasant have weighed? How much did a typical 17 year old American male high school student weigh 50 years ago? How much does a typical 17 year old American male high school student weigh today?

I get the impression kids are getting bigger and bigger. When I finished high school, I was 60kg dripping wet, insisting I was really 70kg. (And yes, insisting that my D&D Strength score would be 11. )

However, the D&D setting is not quite the same as medieval. It is a fantasy setting. I think the nutritional standards in the fantasy D&D setting are superior to a historical medieval setting.

 

[Evie]

If the argument is that we have lower con now than we did say 25 or 50 years ago, then yes, absolutely. There's no question there. We made some gains, but they're more than balnaced out by what we lostt since.

And if the allegation is that the "average'" constituiton represent a category of fantasy ubermensch who rarely get sick, then yes, we have less CON Than that. But then the average become a very, very laughable notion that's human in name only.

 

[Zelig]

However, the D&D setting is not quite the same as medieval. It is a fantasy setting. I think the nutritional standards in the fantasy D&D setting are superior to a historical medieval setting.

It helps that a level 5 cleric can magic up enough food out of nothing to sustain a couple dozen people indefinitely.

But I'm not budging on dexterity not having changed in any noticeable downard manner.

*Shrug* I'd still allow +4 to each of str/dex/con if someone goes from a sedentary lifestyle to fulltime athletic training.

 

[Evie]

+4 CON for fulltime athletic training, yes, no question. (But they're above-average, not average).
+4 STR depend on the specific form of athletic training ; I'd probably range it from +2 to +5 depending on what exactly they,re doing. But there,s no question they get a significant STR increase of some sort.
Dexterity, it depends. If their fulltime athletic training come at the cost of limiting their ability to perform activities requiring fine motor control (because they stop training to do those/don't train to do those), then no. You're gaining with one hand what you're losing with the other. It also depend on the type of activity.

Ultimately, I'd agree with a large increase no question asked if the stat was Agility (which is what many people often interpret it to be), but it's dexterity, which covers fine motor control and minute works that involves steady hands, finger-to-hands coordination and the like. NONE of which are athletic abilities.

I mean, they're your games and you're the GM, and you're free to play them the way you deem fitting, but I probably wouldn't join those games, because I'm pretty sure my disagreement with your GMing style are pretty irreconcilable. And I'm not going to evaluate myself on the basis of how you would GM me

As for myself, the question of my GMing style in DnD is moot, because I'm running my own system like I mentioned, where the question would be very different since a lot of what we're discussing about ability to perform certain tasks would fall under skills, not attributes. Somethign the DnD take on the skill system really cannot represent effectively.

(Also, my homebrew system DOES use Agi instead of Dex - fine hands/eyes coordination get shifted over to Perception along with the observation skills part of wisdom, so THAT debate is moot).

 

[Zelig]

As for myself, the question of my GMing style in DnD is moot, because I'm running my own system like I mentioned, where the question would be very different since a lot of what we're discussing about ability to perform certain tasks would fall under skills, not attributes. Somethign the DnD take on the skill system really cannot represent effectively.

I don't agree - for anything you do, in any system, you have some probability of success - it's generally better to reach whatever probabilities you want with as simple a system as practical.

There's no need to burden a system with the minutiae of a "driving" skill unless you're catering to munchkins. Does the player know how to drive based on their background? If so, then let them drive.

 

[Evie]

Trait+Skill+D10 is a pretty dang simple system as far as these go.

Arguably just as simple as D20+Trait-modifier-which-is-not-your-actual-trait-itself. And while it take a little more time at creaiton, it gives a far more diverse and flexible character creation environment.

(Though as it happens driving is not currently a skill in my system - it wasn't relevant enough to the setting, I felt. This may need to change thanks to my players messing around and ignoring half a dozen warnings from other characters (and then getting ridiculously lucky on a series of ad-hoc raw checks until I managed to make them ditch the car at the US border).

(It may be worth pointing out that characters in my setting are very hard to notice for most people. So for characters in that setting...yeah, simply driving is in and of itself an extreme sport)

 

[Zelig]

Trait+Skill+D10 is a pretty dang simple system as far as these go.

Arguably just as simple as D20+Trait-modifier-which-is-not-your-actual-trait-itself. And while it take a little more time at creaiton, it gives a far more diverse and flexible character creation environment.

It's the number of skills that's the problem. Otherwise the mechanics of "roll a die higher than x" don't really differ.