Whatever You Do, Don't Spank The Brat

[aelf]

Abused? I think there's more abuse done on the part of the kids than on the part of school authorities. Abuse is a poor excuse because abuse can be regulated, prevented and dealt with. Do you want to disallow prisons and replace it with house arrests instead because the former are liable to be abused? Regulation is a trivial matter compared with ensuring the proper education of the country's young.

I'm all for supportive education and such (as you can see in one of my recent threads about work and education), but there's a line to be drawn at discipline. Cross the line and you must get it. If not, chances are you will grow up to be a useless fool.

 

[Labtec600]

I don't see the relationship between the thread title and the article itself. This boy isn't a brat, but has a mental illnesss or something like this (I can't tell it from the article alone).
He got treated for it, his mother took him home, so it's now all fine, right?

Or maybe he just gets away with whatever the hell he wants, so he throws these tantrums.

I was in the store the other day and there was this little chubby kid who wanted a doughnut. His mom said no and the little kid start with these ear piercing screams. She just kept saying in a low calm voice "No, you can't have it".

Eventually he stopped. When I walked back by it was because he had the doughnut.

I would never dream of doing this stuff as a child. My mom would quickly put an end to it. All she had to do was shoot me a look and I would stop whatever I was doing.

There is nothing wrong with hitting your children in the traditional sense. Beating them unconcious, of course, but your everyday spanking is fine.

 

[eastsidebagel]

I, for my case, wouldn't like to see my son coming home from school, all whining and sad, just because an over-zealous idiot of a teacher thought it would be justified to gave him some "well-deserved" spanking after he did something what would be considered by me as just a little prank or joke. I'm saying that teaching stuff to children is the business of the school staff, but when it comes to actually educating my kid and teaching him/her about good manners and such, it should stay all by the parents themselves. After all, the teachers have always the chance to talk to the parents and to clear the parents about the situation up and just after such a meeting with the both sides the parents should decide about a proper, educational punishment.

 

[eastsidebagel]

@Labtech: I literally despise such kinds of kids. Imagine this kid in ten years or twenty years from now. He won't have no ambitions or personal aims since it always was going good this way, instead of achieving his goals through working and improving yourself.
(I think I'm exaggerating, but just in order to make my point.)

 

[aelf]

I, for my case, wouldn't like to see my son coming home from school, all whining and sad, just because an over-zealous idiot of a teacher thought it would be justified to gave him some "well-deserved" spanking after he did something what would be considered by me as just a little prank or joke. I'm saying that teaching stuff to children is the business of the school staff, but when it comes to actually educating my kid and teaching him/her about good manners and such, it should stay all by the parents themselves. After all, the teachers have always the chance to talk to the parents and to clear the parents about the situation up and just after such a meeting with the both sides the parents should decide about a proper, educational punishment.

I'm sorry, but I don't think you'd make a very good parent. Certainly not an educator. I can actually hardly believe that anyone thinks like you do. It's just so... naive. But I suppose I shall have to believe the evidence of my eyes, especially in the results of such thinking.

 

[eastsidebagel]

I'm sorry, but I don't think you'd make a very good parent. Certainly not an educator. I can actually hardly believe that anyone thinks like you do. It's just so... naive. But I suppose I shall have to believe the evidence of my eyes, especially in the results of such thinking.

I respect your opinions, but I've still got some questions to you:
How could you apply the term "naive" to the elaborations I just gave?

Don't you agree with me that some sadistic, incompetent would certainly do abuse their supposed rights to spank their pupils by themselves?

We in Germany had long time ago a similiar issue where teachers could do almost whatever they wanted with their students when they deemed it approbiate. Not just spanking but also hitting your fingers with a stick made of oak wood when, for example, the respective student didn't write orderly in his textbook. It didn't work out very well...

 

[Grisu]

Why? Then he can be home-schooled. They should make parents sign contracts whereby they can send their child to school only if they agree that their child is liable for reasonable disciplinary action, even physical ones. Obviously, such a tantrum more than qualifies for some good-old physical punishment.

well, I most certainly wouldn't send my child to a school where spanking is employed. the teachers have no right spanking my kid. they can detain him, send him out/home, etc. but certainly not spank.

The problem here isn't that this kid hasn't been spanked, it's that his parents obviously haven't done their job. People see stuff like this and go 'oh, back in my day when we spanked the kids that wouldn't have happened'.
The absence of spanking isn't the problem, parents not taking the time necessary to raise their children is.

I personally don't like spanking done by anybody, but that should be up to the individual parents to decide.

 

[emzie]

Depends on the kid. I was barely ever spanked (I really only remember one instance) and I turned out fine.
But then again, I was naturally a good boy.

I got a good slap once. Oh and a cup of cold tea thrown on me.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I was in the store the other day and there was this little chubby kid who wanted a doughnut. His mom said no and the little kid start with these ear piercing screams. She just kept saying in a low calm voice "No, you can't have it".

Eventually he stopped. When I walked back by it was because he had the doughnut.

I call them Cartmans. They appear to be getting more numerous with time.

I would never dream of doing this stuff as a child. My mom would quickly put an end to it. All she had to do was shoot me a look and I would stop whatever I was doing.

Exactly. And if I didn't I would get punished for it. Sometimes it was just being sent to my room. Sometimes it involved her wacking my rear with her hand once or twice. If it was really severe, I got sent to my room until dad got home. That rarely involved being hit on the rear with my own belt. And I certainly got the message.

I was even paddled once in the 8th grade. They had a very strict rule about not throwing the gravel used in the bus driveway. It was a huge attraction because the bus didn't come until 30 minutes after school had let out, and it was a big area so you were merely displacing the rock from one location to another. One time, a PE teacher noticed 3 of us doing it. We were marched into his office, and he hit each of us once with his paddle. It was a largely symbolic gesture that didn't hurt even as badly as my mom using her hand. And that was the end of it. No police were called. No district supervisors were notified. I wasn't suspended from school. No comment was added to my permanent record. My parents never found out about it. Personally, I would take the former punishment over the latter any day, and I bet most kids would too.

There is nothing wrong with hitting your children in the traditional sense. Beating them unconcious, of course, but your everyday spanking is fine.

Indeed. Children need discipline. They aren't adults whom you can reason with, or call the authorities if they don't. You are just going to get them into "the system" where some judge may eventually use that as part of an excuse to take them away from you, or be temporarily sent to a "juvenile detention center" where they are usually magically transformed into full-fledged juvenile delinquents.

well, I most certainly wouldn't send my child to a school where spanking is employed. the teachers have no right spanking my kid. they can detain him, send him out/home, etc. but certainly not spank.

That's how my parents felt, which is why I never told them about my paddling.

 

[aelf]

I respect your opinions, but I've still got some questions to you:
How could you apply the term "naive" to the elaborations I just gave?

Don't you agree with me that some sadistic, incompetent would certainly do abuse their supposed rights to spank their pupils by themselves?

We in Germany had long time ago a similiar issue where teachers could do almost whatever they wanted with their students when they deemed it approbiate. Not just spanking but also hitting your fingers with a stick made of oak wood when, for example, the respective student didn't write orderly in his textbook. It didn't work out very well...

well, I most certainly wouldn't send my child to a school where spanking is employed. the teachers have no right spanking my kid. they can detain him, send him out/home, etc. but certainly not spank.

The problem here isn't that this kid hasn't been spanked, it's that his parents obviously haven't done their job. People see stuff like this and go 'oh, back in my day when we spanked the kids that wouldn't have happened'.
The absence of spanking isn't the problem, parents not taking the time necessary to raise their children is.

I personally don't like spanking done by anybody, but that should be up to the individual parents to decide.

Think about it carefully. Kids spend half or more of their days in school, and many parents today have to work. Many parents don't have the time and energy to mind their kids even when they're at home. If you live in a more pastoral setting, where you live and work at or near home and educating your children in the lessons of life is a regular and well-established thing, sure you have almost complete responsibility in disciplining your child. Otherwise, I don't think many parents are realistically up to the task. Add the erosion of parental authority to that, and you get brats a plenty.

Many Asians are still pretty traditional in how they bring up kids, and their kids are not abused or more problematic because of that. And I'd say that there's generally more respect to go around in an Asian society than what I see around here, where many youths are ill-mannered and ill-behaved louts even when not drunk.

 

[Grisu]

Think about it carefully. Kids spend half or more of their days in school, and many parents today have to work. Many parents don't have the time and energy to mind their kids even when they're at home. If you live in a more pastoral setting, where you live and work at or near home and educating your children in the lessons of life is a regular and well-established thing, sure you have almost complete responsibility in disciplining your child. Otherwise, I don't think many parents are realistically up to the task. Add the erosion of parental authority to that, and you get brats a plenty.

people who don't have the time or energy to mind their children shouldn't have children to begin with. It's not the school's job to teach the children proper behaviour, that's one of the parent's tasks.
The brats we see today aren't brats due to the erosion of parental authority (whatever that may be), they're brats because their parents don't care properly for them.

 

[aelf]

people who don't have the time or energy to mind their children shouldn't have children to begin with. It's not the school's job to teach the children proper behaviour, that's one of the parent's tasks.
The brats we see today aren't brats due to the erosion of parental authority (whatever that may be), they're brats because their parents don't care properly for them.

So, in other words, you won't look at it from a realistic point of view? You'd rather have parents who can't, for whatever reason, discipline their children not have children - how's that going to work?

And I don't see why schools can't teach proper behaviour. Do you have a good argument for that?

 

[Grisu]

So, in other words, you won't look at it from a realistic point of view? You'd rather have parents who can't, for whatever reason, discipline their children not have children - how's that going to work?

Of course I can't make people who don't raise their children properly not have any children, that's why I said 'should'. That was just me expressing how things should be. But nevertheless, I certainly won't have a teacher physically discipline my kid, just because he thinks he needs it. If I ever find a teacher doing that I'll do my best to have him expelled from that school. As a parent it's my responsibility, and I'll take care of it. If the teacher feels my kid needs a good spanking, he's free to tell me so, but I'll be the ultimate arbiter. (ok, my wife )

But I don't see how my approach is 'unrealistic' at all (I have, btw, still not seen what you understand as 'erosion of parental authority'), it is and should be up to parents how they discipline their kids, not school. You might as well start forcing people to eat healthy because they're not doing it on their own.

The whole 'brat' stuff is overhyped anyway, IMHO. Many kids still are well-behaved, it's just the whole 'back in my day...'-stuff that makes us say that today's kids are so much worse than we were.

And I don't see why schools can't teach proper behaviour. Do you have a good argument for that?

maybe I didn't state that as well as I should have. Sure, schools can teach manners, etc. if it fits the curriculum. But it shouldn't be the school's job.

 

[aelf]

Of course I can't make people who don't raise their children properly not have any children, that's why I said 'should'. That was just me expressing how things should be. But nevertheless, I certainly won't have a teacher physically discipline my kid, just because he thinks he needs it. If I ever find a teacher doing that I'll do my best to have him expelled from that school. As a parent it's my responsibility, and I'll take care of it. If the teacher feels my kid needs a good spanking, he's free to tell me so, but I'll be the ultimate arbiter. (ok, my wife )

But I don't see how my approach is 'unrealistic' at all (I have, btw, still not seen what you understand as 'erosion of parental authority'), it is and should be up to parents how they discipline their kids, not school. You might as well start forcing people to eat healthy because they're not doing it on their own.

But you just said it. You said 'should'. Yes, I think it's very good to work towards what should be. However, I don't think there's any inherent moral concern in this, and the best bet is to be more pragmatic. In fact, I think it's more moral to make sure the kid is disciplined if the parents don't do it.

The fact that you admit that what you want is the ideal situation, given the context of freedoms that are more important than the freedom not to be spanked in school, is saying that it is unrealistic to be entertaining the idea seriously. And I think your analogy fits better if parents are made to discipline their kids whether they want to or not. As for discipline in school, it's more like only giving the option of health food at fitness centres. Nobody should have forced you to come anyway.

The whole 'brat' stuff is overhyped anyway, IMHO. Many kids still are well-behaved, it's just the whole 'back in my day...'-stuff that makes us say that today's kids are so much worse than we were.

Well, I don't think kids here have been behaving like this since the old days. I've lived in different countries, and I think the contrast is palpable. The kids who behave like this in the Asian countries where I lived are kids who either don't go to school or go to bad schools (where you can be sure discipline is very poorly enforced).

maybe I didn't state that as well as I should have. Sure, schools can teach manners, etc. if it fits the curriculum. But it shouldn't be the school's job.

Alright, I understand. I agree parents are still the most important factor here. However, I don't think schools can't do anything, being custodians and guardians for kids for half or even the large part of their time growing up.

 

[Grisu]

But you just said it. You said 'should'. Yes, I think it's very good to work towards what should be. However, I don't think there's any inherent moral concern in this, and the best bet is to be more pragmatic. In fact, I think it's more moral to make sure the kid is disciplined if the parents don't do it.

see, I don't even disagree with that. My disagreement with you stems from your presumption that spanking is a viable/useful means of disciplinary action. You seem to assume that the way to set these kids 'right' is by spanking. I don't see it this way. There's plenty of ways to make your kids respect you and others without resorting to violence. When I was in school there were teachers who had total control of their class and others were holding on by a thin thread. The former didn't need spanking or the thread thereof either to keep the class in line.

The fact that you admit that what you want is the ideal situation, given the context of freedoms that are more important than the freedom not to be spanked in school, is saying that it is unrealistic to be entertaining the idea seriously. And I think your analogy fits better if parents are made to discipline their kids whether they want to or not. As for discipline in school, it's more like only giving the option of health food at fitness centres. Nobody should have forced you to come anyway.

as I said above, I don't disagree with discipline in school, what I disagree with is that discipline should include spanking or other physical punishment. I hardly see it as unrealistic to expect the schools to do their job without that, especially since there's quite some doubt whether it's working at all...

Well, I don't think kids here have been behaving like this since the old days. I've lived in different countries, and I think the contrast is palpable. The kids who behave like this in the Asian countries where I lived are kids who either don't go to school or go to bad schools (where you can be sure discipline is very poorly enforced).

never having lived in asia I can't speak for that, but I do know that adults were saying the same thing about us when I was a kid as you and others in this thread are saying right now

Alright, I understand. I agree parents are still the most important factor here. However, I don't think schools can't do anything, being custodians and guardians for kids for half or even the large part of their time growing up.

oh, they have plenty of tools, just not that one. If you, as a parent, voluntarily want to give that right to the teachers, then, while disagreeing, I have no problem with it. But giving that power by implication of force (having each parent sign a contract or the kid can't go to this school) is wrong, IMHO.

 

[mangxema]

No, beat the brat.

No, eat the brat.

 

[aelf]

see, I don't even disagree with that. My disagreement with you stems from your presumption that spanking is a viable/useful means of disciplinary action. You seem to assume that the way to set these kids 'right' is by spanking. I don't see it this way. There's plenty of ways to make your kids respect you and others without resorting to violence. When I was in school there were teachers who had total control of their class and others were holding on by a thin thread. The former didn't need spanking or the thread thereof either to keep the class in line.

as I said above, I don't disagree with discipline in school, what I disagree with is that discipline should include spanking or other physical punishment. I hardly see it as unrealistic to expect the schools to do their job without that, especially since there's quite some doubt whether it's working at all...

never having lived in asia I can't speak for that, but I do know that adults were saying the same thing about us when I was a kid as you and others in this thread are saying right now

oh, they have plenty of tools, just not that one. If you, as a parent, voluntarily want to give that right to the teachers, then, while disagreeing, I have no problem with it. But giving that power by implication of force (having each parent sign a contract or the kid can't go to this school) is wrong, IMHO.

Sorry, it's a little confusing who said what.

The thing about physical punishment is it gives you more options. Otherwise, what can the school do? Send the child out? Suspend him? What if all those don't work? What if the kid figures out that such formalities of school don't really matter to him, that being suspended is actually a good thing from the point of view of a kid who hates school?

Physical punishment imprints itself on the minds of kids in a very different way. Even the threat of it is enough to put a lot of them in line. Which kid isn't afraid of physical punishment? Is it really that painful and abusive, though? Looking back at it as an adult, one knows that it's generally benign and maybe even laughs at the fact that a teacher with a ruler was so scary. To a kid, it's different.

 

[Gustave5436]

Traumatic events certainly do have a powerful emotional effect on people.

However, abusing a child just to get him/her to shut up and behave is not particularly ethical, in my opinion.

 

[aelf]

Traumatic events certainly do have a powerful emotional effect on people.

However, abusing a child just to get him/her to shut up and behave is not particularly ethical, in my opinion.

Which part of it is abusive? Merely hitting a child is abusive? Don't you think there are more subtle distinctions to be made?

 

[Gustave5436]

Which part of it is abusive? Merely hitting a child is abusive? Don't you think there are more subtle distinctions to be made?

Yes, stealing is wrong, but if you just do it a little bit then it's ok.

Harming a child, physically or emotionally (both in the case of corporal punishment), is wrong, full stop. There is no "subtle distinction" to be made.