When did feminism go completely crazy?

[Traitorfish]

I haven't spoken for the pro-feminist posters here, correct me if I'm wrong.

No, I mean, the anti-feminist- or more politely, feminist-critical voice in this thread has consisted mostly of highlighting individual weirdos and declaring them, quite arbitrarily, representative of all contemporary feminism. Jolly Roger's posts highlight the absurdity of that by reversing it, by casting these whackjobs as representative of all feminist-critical perspectives when they're clearly not.

 

[Senethro]

Agreed. The problem I'm having though, is this isn't the first time Senethro has done this to myself and other posters here with whom she disagrees with (Senethro is a woman right? I'm pretty sure but not 100% on that).

You called Useless lazy for not already knowing your viewpoints on a thing from careful post history research. So, the first stone having been cast, I lobbed one of my own with a little post history on the side!

I think your views on what constitutes a just relationship with your wife are relevant to your views on feminism.

 

[Commodore]

You called Useless lazy for not already knowing your viewpoints on a thing from careful post history research. So, the first stone having been cast, I lobbed one of my own with a little post history on the side!

I think your views on what constitutes a just relationship with your wife are relevant to your views on feminism.

So you felt the need to butt into a dialog between useless and I only to sling insults? Basically, that post was not yours to make. The discussion was between me and useless, and you basically just jumped in for the sole purpose of launching a personal attack against me that had no relevance to the topic being discussed.

And my relationship with my wife has absolutely no bearing at all on my views of feminism. To say that it does, you would have to demonstrate that I do what I do for the sole reason of my wife being a woman. That is not the case, and the fact that she has a vagina has nothing to do with why I control the finances in the manner that I do and everything to do with the fact that she does not bring any money into the household and I refuse to just be someone else's ATM. So no, your post was not relevant and served no other purpose than to attack me personally.

My comment on useless's intellectual laziness though was relevant because his lack of understanding of my viewpoints led to his mischaracterization of my viewpoint on the issue being discussed.

 

[Senethro]

So you felt the need to butt into a dialog between useless and I only to sling insults? Basically, that post was not yours to make. The discussion was between me and useless, and you basically just jumped in for the sole purpose of launching a personal attack against me that had no relevance to the topic being discussed.

And my relationship with my wife has absolutely no bearing at all on my views of feminism. To say that it does, you would have to demonstrate that I do what I do for the sole reason of my wife being a woman. That is not the case, and the fact that she has a vagina has nothing to do with why I control the finances in the manner that I do and everything to do with the fact that she does not bring any money into the household and I refuse to just be someone else's ATM. So no, your post was not relevant and served no other purpose than to attack me personally.

My comment on useless's intellectual laziness though was relevant because his lack of understanding of my viewpoints led to his mischaracterization of my viewpoint on the issue being discussed.

Having seen how unfruitful the efforts of better people than me were in that thread, I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise.

 

[jackelgull]

No, I mean, the anti-feminist- or more politely, feminist-critical voice in this thread has consisted mostly of highlighting individual weirdos and declaring them, quite arbitrarily, representative of all contemporary feminism. Jolly Roger's posts highlight the absurdity of that by reversing it, by casting these whackjobs as representative of all feminist-critical perspectives when they're clearly not.

Then let me offer a critique of a main stream feminist view which I believe is a noble effort but has some fallacies

Namely to stop rape by teaching men not to rape.

What precisely would this curriculum include? I imagine after the initial "No means no" and "consent must be explicitly given" there wouldn't be much to talk about right? I suppose the school could try to teach empathy but I think that teaching that might be beyond the scope of a curriculum.

 

[Farm Boy]

Then let me offer a critique of a main stream feminist view which I believe is a noble effort but has some fallacies

Namely to stop rape by teaching men not to rape.

What precisely would this curriculum include? I imagine after the initial "No means no" and "consent must be explicitly given" there wouldn't be much to talk about right? I suppose the school could try to teach empathy but I think that teaching that might be beyond the scope of a curriculum.

The culture of getting impaired and laid probably needs to fundamentally change. If we actually care. The culture of associating popularity and social worth with something so dippy as getting laid probably needs to change. But, man, that's a tough sell. Advocating the worth of sobriety, the value of situational abstinence, and the benefits of respectful monogamy(serial or whatever)? Ho boy. Good luck. The fact that some oppressively patriarchal societies now value these things, historically patriarchal societies have valued these things, and willfull misconstrual of a respectful approach to empathic intercourse with other pre-drawn progressive/conservative battle lines? It's going to get lost.

 

[Flying Pig]

Then let me offer a critique of a main stream feminist view which I believe is a noble effort but has some fallacies

Namely to stop rape by teaching men not to rape.

What precisely would this curriculum include? I imagine after the initial "No means no" and "consent must be explicitly given" there wouldn't be much to talk about right? I suppose the school could try to teach empathy but I think that teaching that might be beyond the scope of a curriculum.

The idea is more to get out of the assumption that anyone who gets raped somehow deserved it, and there's a fine line between 'you can reduce the risk of it happening to you by taking care of yourself' and 'if you fail to take care of yourself well enough, you deserve what you get'. Personally, I'd like to see us treat it like any other crime - we don't blame the victim in a house robbery, but we make sure that we lock our doors.

 

[caketastydelish]

The problem is I think all the guys "know" rape is wrong, just as much as any other felony. They do it because they think they can get away with it, not because they think it's acceptable, the same case with any other felony such as robbery or murder or whatever.

The real solution (and people will hate me for advocating this) is install more security cameras all over the place, so more and more rapists will be caught on camera, and this in time will discourage them from raping in the first place when there are far less possible places where the rape could occur (and them not get away with it).

 

[Sonereal]

not because they think it's acceptable

I can get away with keying any and every car in the student garage. I don't because it is unacceptable.

People tend not to do things they think is unacceptable.

 

[caketastydelish]

The idea is more to get out of the assumption that anyone who gets raped somehow deserved it, and there's a fine line between 'you can reduce the risk of it happening to you by taking care of yourself' and 'if you fail to take care of yourself well enough, you deserve what you get'. Personally, I'd like to see us treat it like any other crime - we don't blame the victim in a house robbery, but we make sure that we lock our doors.

Do people actually still blame the victims of rape though? Like, commonly? Not just a one in hundred way out of left field random person, but like, all the time?

I've heard various "stop blaming the victim" campaigns but I haven't heard it applicable to the real world. Which is say, never in my life have I heard anyone say "she got raped but it was at least partially her fault because (insert reason here).

Anyway, I was actually robbed myself (by a woman no less) and a lot of people told me it was my fault. So there's that.

 

[sophie]

Do people actually still blame the victims of rape though? Like, commonly? Not just a one in hundred way out of left field random person, but like, all the time?

yes..

 

[caketastydelish]

I can get away with keying any and every car in the student garage. I don't because it is unacceptable.

People tend not to do things they think is unacceptable.

You can't teach people not to have rotten hearts.

 

[Sonereal]

You can't teach people not to have rotten hearts.

Yes, you can actually. You can teach them straight up it isn't acceptable to rape people. If I can grow up and be taught that keying a car isn't acceptable even if I can get away with it, a person should be able to make the jump and say it is unacceptable to rape people, even though I can get away with it, and therefore I won't do it.

 

[Farm Boy]

Do people actually still blame the victims of rape though? Like, commonly? Not just a one in hundred way out of left field random person, but like, all the time?

Yes. Particularly when the issue is so damned sketchy because the parties involved were drunk and getting drunk and having sex is something socially acceptable to do. Like drinking and driving used to be.

 

[caketastydelish]

Yes, you can actually. You can teach them straight up it isn't acceptable to rape people. If I can grow up and be taught that keying a car isn't acceptable even if I can get away with it, a person should be able to make the jump and say it is unacceptable to rape people, even though I can get away with it, and therefore I won't do it.

I question the ratio of successful effectiveness of this though, and think those money/resources would be better spent on more security cameras and things like that to minimize the areas where rapes can actually occur where the rapist will get away with it.

I'll personally go as far to say I'd chip in tax dollars for every woman who lives alone in the United States to have her own security alarm system in her house.

 

[Arwon]

The majority of rape victims know their attackers. The stranger rape trope is misleading. Not sure how security alarms are supposed to help with that.

 

[Sonereal]

The success effectiveness ratio of people not thinking keying cars is acceptable can be shown by the fact there isn't an epidemic of keying cars despite the fact "people can get away with it".

Why would somebody rape somebody if they didn't on some level think it is acceptable? Rape isn't murder. You don't rape in self-defense, so there isn't really that many levels on which rape is acceptable, if there are any levels in the first place.

 

[caketastydelish]

The majority of rape victims know their attackers. The stranger rape trope is misleading. Not sure how security alarms are supposed to help with that.

Maybe, but I still don't see any difference. They're raping because they think they can get away with it. Raping someone you don't know is just as wrong as raping someone you do know. For all the hype about "rape culture" I literally can't name one book or movie or videogame or whatever where an actual rapist is portrayed as a good guy or hero.

These dumbasses know what they're doing it wrong, they just do it because they want to either get revenge against the victim, out of sexual lust, or just being an all-around sociopath. I don't see how spending money to teach them not to do what they've already made up their minds they're going to do will make a difference.

 

[caketastydelish]

The success effectiveness ratio of people not thinking keying cars is acceptable can be shown by the fact there isn't an epidemic of keying cars despite the fact "people can get away with it".

Why would somebody rape somebody if they didn't on some level think it is acceptable? Rape isn't murder. You don't rape in self-defense, so there isn't really that many levels on which rape is acceptable, if there are any levels in the first place.

Perhaps less people are tempted to key cars to begin with, and a lot of people just don't know how (I certainly don't).

Another explanation is that rapes have been going around for as long as humanity has, but cars haven't. Which isn't of course to justify the action of rape. But men will naturally less fascinated with "cars" which have existed less than 1% of humanitys existance than women which have always been around. There are therefore, going to be more men tempted to rape than tempted to steal cars, even though they know both are wrong.

Again, I agree that the large amount of rapes is an issue that needs fixing. But like I said, the money would be better spent on ways that prevent the rapist from being able to do what he does to begin with, than teaching him not do rape (which he won't listen to).

And for the record: I'm not saying "prevent the rapist from being successful" means teach women to do anything differently. I gave examples like more security cameras, providing women with their own alarm system for their home, etc. Donating to nonprofits which help with rape victims could be beneficial as well.

 

[Sonereal]

I don't disagree that if you add more security cameras, alarm systems, and support more nonprofits to help rape victims that there won't be benefits, because I think there would. I just disagree that a lot of rapists think that rape is unacceptable because if they did, they wouldn't have done it.