When to run specialists?

[ZeekLTK]

I seem to always fall in the trap of "well, I want to run a specialist or two in this city... BUT, I could just let it grow a little more first."

And then all of a sudden my size 4 city with +6 food (could have run 3 specialists) has turned into a size 11 city with +2 food (I decided to have work some of those 0-1 food mines for all the hammers... )

Basically, I always think "well, I could get the city bigger and THEN run the specialists" but then it either takes a long time or I end up working mines instead of specialists.

So, what is the general guide for when to run specialists? I think I spend too much time letting the cities grow and not enough time using the specialists that I could. Once I get biology then I am pretty good about running lots of specialists (because I can run them and still have the city grow), but that is very late in the game.

Also, aside from specific circumstances, is engineer what everyone generally uses? I find that unless my treasury is low (merchant) or I'm trying to push my culture onto a border (artist) that I generally prefer the extra hammers.

The only time I use priests is when I have the wonder that gives them more hammers than normal, and I almost never use scientists unless I am at 100% research (because that's the only way to get more bulbs), which is unlikely. Instead, I generally run merchants to give me the money to afford a higher research rate. Is that right? Or would I be better off with a lower rate but using scientists?

 

[cseanny]

Biology comes Very late, by which time the game is effectively over. So speaking much earlier...... I like to be running 2 scientist somewhere in the 1500 - 1100 range so I can get an Academy. Beyond that I don't generally emphasize more specialist until my 1st GA at which point I do the standard civic changes, max specialist (GS for bulbing or GMs for tm and unit upgrades) and then switch civics again before the GA finishes.

They're will always be scenarios when your trying to bulb early techs like Math (chops), or towards machinery/eng (treb/cross) but in general the above paragraph fits into most games. The only exception would be when I'm running a economy and stay in caste (90% of time slavery ftw). But all this happens way way way before Biology.

So, for me running specialist is geared at gaining Xamount of beakers from powerful bulbs or Xamount of gold for powerful trade missions which will be used for unit upgrades and prolonged max research. The only exception to this rule would be with the MIDs/Rep.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

There are two main reasons to run specialists:

1. The city doesn't have enough improved plots to work or the specialist slot provides more total output (usually via Representation), including all food, than the best unworked, improved plot.
2. Our strategy requires a certain Great Person by a specified time frame -- usually a Great Scientist used to construct an Academy in the capital city.

Adhering to the following guideline should lead one to an optimal specialist assignment.

Buildings that multiple the specialist's output should also be considering when assigning specialists to specific cities.

Do not be tempted to grow a city to happiness cap before assigning specialists. It is usually best to assign specialists when needed or when the city's food surplus is at it maximum with extra citizens assigned as effective specialists.

The Spy specialist is often overlooked. When running Representation (via The Pyramids), it produces 4E 4B. Engineer is 2H 3B, but the Great Engineer is rare early on and thus more valuable. However, one's strategy should dictate which specialists are worked.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[LincolnOfRome]

I often have a goal in mind when I run specialists. Sometimes I build an early library and run scientists so I can bulb mathematics so I have more productive chopping for a rush. I might run a priests so I can get a great priest to found a religion. I might run an engineer so I can get more production on an island without trees or hills, but plenty of food. Even a size three city with a wet corn can run two specialists.

I like to run scientists to gain technology. Bulbing philosophy can get you a religion. Bulbing most of Education can get you quickly to the liberalism prize. Those techs are great to trade around. The scientists also help your overall tech rate.

Running priests can be great early game. They can help you found Islam or Christianisty. They can also help you build a religious shrine.

Running engineers are also very useful. They can really help a cities production. Great Engineers can build you wonders.

 

[Macksideshow]

I like to settle a GP farm with my 3rd or 4th settler, providing there is a decent spot for it near my capital. A decent spot will have 2 food specials with hopefully some flood plains and calendar food resource to be used later. I build a library and run 2 scientists in that city as soon as it can work the food, I will also build a temple and run a priest if I can.

If I this city running 2-3 specialists then other cities are unlikely to generate GP so specialists are not as useful and will only be run if there is no improved plots to work and whipping isn't an option (unlikely). Exception is if the capital also has decent food then that might also run some scientists.

The concept is to concentrate specialists in one city to max GP output. Without the prospect of generating a GP, food excess is typically better used to whip or work mines. Notable exception is obviously if I can get the Mids.

If there is second good food site available, I will settle that by city 8 and have 2 GP farms but I typically don't REX to 8 cities and its more likely and usually preferred that I'll let the AI develop that city and capture it.

I like to run scientists because great scientists are the best imo. Great engineers are better but not all that easy to get, particularly early. First scientist builds an academy in my capital, unless I can get it very early and my capital doesn't have good commerce specials (like gems or gold) then I will settle it but this is rare. The idea is if the capital isn't generating much commerce yet it won't lose much by waiting until the 2nd great scientist to get an academy and it will gain more from the +3 beakers and +1 hammer from the settled scientist. All subsequent scientists are used to bulb towards Lib.

If I get a great priest (quite rare), I will usually start a golden age if I have civic changes to do, I might settle it if its my first or second great person or if an AI near me has founded a religion I will keep it until I can capture the holy city.

Where things go after this really depends on the game and the map. Like others have said, its good to go Caste System and run max specialists in any city with a food surplus during a GA, even to starvation although I don't like to actually lose pop just run the food bin down. After the GA, make sure to concentrate specialists in each of these cities one at a time until they pop a great person. This is a good time to build some infra in your GP farm cities (forge, courthouse, observatory, etc)

 

[Seraiel]

When size 2 to size 11 for you is "suddenly" , you now know the reason why you working specialists fails.

To work Specialists, it requires Math and Micro.

Workings Mines then for example isn't suited, so your size 11 city could then i. e. work the 5-6 specialists it had Food for.

 

[Macksideshow]

Hey, I am wondering what math you use to calculate whether to run a specialist or not Seraiel. Occasionally I try to calculate the for and against but I run up against things I can't quantify, like the value of growing a cottage or even the city.

 

[Seraiel]

It's normal to run against things that cannot be quantified when running specialists, therefor models have their greatest use there.

Like you i. e. want to bulb Philosophy, Philosophy is 1500 but costs 300 -> 1 = 5 at that time.
For getting the GS, it's necessary to run 2 Scientists in the Library, so 4 = 6 = 30 + 6 in that situation.

Growing a Cottage or growing a city are things that (imo) are only suiteable for the capital, because normal cities that have the chance to produce a Specialist, imo should always go for that chance.

There I would simply work below the rule that growing the Capital when running Buro is always more attractive apart from the first two GSs maybe. This is because the 1st two GSs are valuable for (double- ) bulbing Education, and Oxford simply is a great national wonder that gives great benefit.

I would also always try to see things situational, like i. e. "I need maximum research now, where can I optimize" , or "I can research a little slower, let's grow the cities" or "this city has no chance to ever produce a Great Person, need to improve more tiles an whip that city harder" .

Basically, working a Specialist is "always" the right choice when that city has the chance to generate a GP, but without having Pyramids and without valuing the , the benefit of a Specialist is so small that Growth is the greater goal in almost all situations.

 

[Pangaea]

Basically, working a Specialist is "always" the right choice when that city has the chance to generate a GP, but without having Pyramids and without valuing the , the benefit of a Specialist is so small that Growth is the greater goal in almost all situations.

That's a nice summary, and something I've tried to keep in mind in recent games. The problem, of course, is that the AI will add specialists left, right and center, and especially those damn annoying spy specialists. In the late game, when you have 30+ cities, it's rather annoying to go through the cities each turn and remove those buggars. In addition to getting screwed by the RNG in the early game, this is the biggest issue with the game (oh, and that horribly laggy UI).

 

[LincolnOfRome]

Like others have said--Great People is why you run specialists. It's important to be aware of how the mechanics of how great people work.

Each specialist produces 3 great people points per turn. Your first great person requires 100 points, the second 200, the third 300 and so on. If I want to get three early great scientists early, I might build three libraries, and put 2 science specialists in each of those three cities. I know by basic math that City One will produce a specialist after 17 turns, City Two after 34, and City Three after 50.

Note: Wonders also produce points, so you have to be careful. The Pyramids produce GE points for instance. World Wonders produce 2 points per turn and National Wonder produce 1 point.

One of the best ways to use great people to leap ahead of the AI's by having techs before them. If I want an early engineering using great scientists, I need to avoid fishing and Meditation, partially tech Alpha, tech Aestetics, trade for Math with one civ, and trade for the rest of Alpha with another civ, and if I am lucky, iron working with another. After that I need to tech construction, and bulb away. Of course, even if I am playing a civilization that starts with fishing, I can Oracle metal casting and run engineers at forges, to get Great Engineers. I can use the GE's to bulb Machinery and Engineering.

I like to save a Great Scientist to bulb most of Education. I often save an Great Engineer and Great Merchant to found Mining and Sushi Corporations.

Thread for Tech preferences.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=140952

 

[Macksideshow]

Basically, working a Specialist is "always" the right choice when that city has the chance to generate a GP, but without having Pyramids and without valuing the , the benefit of a Specialist is so small that Growth is the greater goal in almost all situations.

I tried this approach last night and its working really well. I'm Elizabeth and my capital is hybrid commerce/hammers. I have just 3 other cities which each has a food special available to it, these cities were kept at size 3 after whipping a library and run 2 scientists while working the food special eventually growing to size 5 to work an engineer and farm. One of those cities transferred its food special (corn) to the capital to work 2 gold mines and 2 farms and is new my hammer city. The capital, after building MoM and rushing Great Library and University of Sangkore with great engineers (got lucky yay), now has the National Epic and is also building great people.

Its only a small fractal so even though I only have 4 cities I think I am doing quite well. My tech rate is really good and I am brokering techs well and getting good returns. I thought I'd be able to get a 5th city working a crab and 2 scientists but misread the squares (doh). Julius and Charlemagne have boxed me in but we're good buddist friends and they have hindu enemies so I am not worried, I plan a red coat break out into Charlemagne.

I am really surprised at how well this approach is working, the biggest issue was producing settlers and librarys but chopping and whipping covered that, I think I can win this game for a good result. Either conquest or space, I wanna do space because I haven't done one for ages but with small map I might end up just going conquest.

 

[Aje]

My typical extra GP farm is that city that has one or two seafood tiles, but the rest of the tiles are crap.
Basically I build(whip) only a library and then run two scientists until it pops a GS.
Typically the city is stuck at size 3 (1 fish & 2 scientist) or size 5 (2 clam/crab, 1 PH & 2 scientists)

Then I let the city grow while whiping lighthouse/granary and maybe barracks/stable (depending on time/choice).
The city is now converted to help you whip out units.

 

[robbyextreme]

Well I usually run scientists right away if it's peaceful enough. I play kmod immortal and its harder than diety for 3.19 that most people play.

Academys suck. Divide the research bonus you get by the cost of technology you can bulb and you see it needs 50+ turns to pay off. Bulbing is an immediate and important advantage to keep up. Math Alpha are hard to get without financial leaders or gold..etc because good players get 5-6 cities with a decent army and teching almost halts at this point. Teching them is fine.

Getting machinery with scientists is fast enough if you skip fishing. Saving them for education liberalism works until the higher levels when Ai gets liberalism as early as 600AD

Artists are better on slower speeds when culture pressure lasts longer. But getting a city better borders isnt usually a big deal and bulbing is just better 95% of the time. Obviously cultural victories you want to add tons of culture until you win.

Engis are awesome and always the most effective. But waiting for 1 forge to produce one sucks and comes to late. Better have stone and forests to chop a mids if wanting early engis. Late game you just build tons of them but Im focusing on early game more.

Great wall with great spy is an easy way to do a espionage economy teching through stealing techs is just as good as scientists but harder to play effectively.

Great prophets are needed for cultural victories to pick up religions and build cathredels but the religious techs are so meh otherwise. Early theology is nice for the exp bonus to military if you plan to build dozens of units in cities right after getting.

I dont use merchants early anyway the market is expensve and a little late compared to library. But neccessary for your wall street wealth city mid game. If you chopped a great lighthouse its a little better but I usually build scientists and if he wonder gives me a great merchant il tech currency etal casting civil service and be happy enough.

Never settle great people its to weak.

haha at typing this im craving civ4 but not home to play so posting is fun to.

 

[cseanny]

GMs can be quite useful in bulbing MC/CS.....which I'll do when I randomly get one, usually from buildings Wonders (TGLH comes to mind). With a decent cottage capital I always prefer to get an Academy early........it helps you reach other priority techs faster during a point in the game where a few turns here and there add up to a big advantage later.

But other than that......bulb, bulb, bulb (Mids makes this optional imo).

 

[robbyextreme]

But why Academy so early. Kind of like a "save my crappy research" button? If you think like 7 beakers a turn is better then an immediate 700 tech cost evaluate your game. If you have crap research thrn you arent keeping unit cost and city maintainance in check with your GDP. With 6 cities and a stack of units around turn 95+ my gold is 10-20 per turn with 0% in science and im willing to negative gain if im close to sacking a city for bunch of gold.

Play a financial leader or gold gem starts instead and keep bulbing if you need academys so bad. Get used to it lol I have ai in my games getting IW and alpha 1500bc. And one game freaking stack of longbowman 1200bc when monty oracled feudalism.

 

[Choggy]

The problem, of course, is that the AI will add specialists left, right and center, and especially those damn annoying spy specialists. In the late game, when you have 30+ cities, it's rather annoying to go through the cities each turn and remove those buggars.

The reason why this happens is because you're building Intelligence Agencies and Sec Bureaus in your cities and the AI thinks 'Oh I've got 5 spy specialists slots available to me, I'd better fill them'.

The solution is quite simple - only build these city improvements in cities where you want spy specialists to be run and have these cities dedicated to generating your espionage points. The other cities will only then be able to run a maximum of one spy specialist from a courthouse and so the AI is forced to assign additional specialist slots elsewhere.

 

[MyOtherName]

That's a nice summary, and something I've tried to keep in mind in recent games. The problem, of course, is that the AI will add specialists left, right and center, and especially those damn annoying spy specialists. In the late game, when you have 30+ cities, it's rather annoying to go through the cities each turn and remove those buggars. In addition to getting screwed by the RNG in the early game, this is the biggest issue with the game (oh, and that horribly laggy UI).

This is the secret reason to running mercantalism or building the Statue of Liberty: it gives all of your cities a free specialist that you can force... and if you've forced any specialists, the governor will never assign specialists of a type you haven't forced.

 

[cseanny]

But why Academy so early. Kind of like a "save my crappy research" button? If you think like 7 beakers a turn is better then an immediate 700 tech cost evaluate your game. If you have crap research thrn you arent keeping unit cost and city maintainance in check with your GDP. With 6 cities and a stack of units around turn 95+ my gold is 10-20 per turn with 0% in science and im willing to negative gain if im close to sacking a city for bunch of gold.

Here's a random Large map/Marathon (which I hate...but it was a forum game) where my early 17 city empire is almost bringing in 200 per turn at 1000 BC largely in thanks to an early Academy. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13026432&postcount=10

On standard/normal settings with a non-fin leader and some rivers a nice cottage capital (good early tile sharing) can bring in around 30 before Lib/Acad. As the Capital grows and works more commerce tiles the situation gets better. Throw in FIN and things get significantly stronger......many times bringing in over 100 per turn at 1000 BC (with 7-8 cities).

And I question the 700 from an early bulb. More in the mid to low 500s for the techs your talking about. Don't get me wrong. With a bad commerce start I bulb early things too, like in this game....which I bulbed MC/CS and didn't opt for an academy till quite quite late. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13032595&postcount=21 very often and definitely when going for Engineer rush. But with a good Capital its my opinion the Academy is the better choice.

 

[Pangaea]

The reason why this happens is because you're building Intelligence Agencies and Sec Bureaus in your cities and the AI thinks 'Oh I've got 5 spy specialists slots available to me, I'd better fill them'.

The solution is quite simple - only build these city improvements in cities where you want spy specialists to be run and have these cities dedicated to generating your espionage points. The other cities will only then be able to run a maximum of one spy specialist from a courthouse and so the AI is forced to assign additional specialist slots elsewhere.

Nope, that is wrong. I never build those damn things. Waste of hammers IMO. Courthouses however are rather needed, so then the AI will spew out spy specialists - particularly if you have Pyramids and are running Representation. Wish there was a "Ban all Spies" button though, empirewide. That would be good.

This is the secret reason to running mercantalism or building the Statue of Liberty: it gives all of your cities a free specialist that you can force... and if you've forced any specialists, the governor will never assign specialists of a type you haven't forced.

That's interesting. I don't like Mercantilism as it kills foreign trade, but forcing a specialists sounds like a good deal. IIRC, the issue is that he gets un-forced if you manually change tiles in the city, though, which is quite common due to other AI disabilities.

This thing is so annoying though, that it's almost tempting to never build courthouses. Sadly they are kind of needed, to get tech espionage on your chosen AI, and of course to cut maintenance costs.

An Academy is usually worth it. It may be 50 turns or whatever when you build it, but that is soon cut significantly as cottages and commerce elsewise is developed in the capital. And it runs the whole game, which is usually a great deal more than 50 turns post-first-GS.

One of few reasons to not build it is if you have a poor capital and want to re-locate it.

 

[Choggy]

Nope, that is wrong. I never build those damn things. Waste of hammers IMO. Courthouses however are rather needed, so then the AI will spew out spy specialists - particularly if you have Pyramids and are running Representation. Wish there was a "Ban all Spies" button though, empirewide. That would be good.

Hmmm...do you build Jails? Scotland Yard? They're the only other building I can think of that opens up spy slots. Pyramids and Rep/Caste only open up Artists/Scientists and Merchant slots so I've no idea where you're getting your spy specialists from.

Rep/Caste/Mids spy specialists are actually pretty handy imo - they still generate 4 per turn but they also give an additional 4 per turn too.