innonimatu
the resident Cassandra
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- Dec 4, 2006
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- 15,378
Interesting. I'd never heard of those.
When was the apex of [American] power?
- Thread starter RedRalph
- Start date
Interesting. I'd never heard of those.
The USA = 1991-2008
UK = If you refer UK to the britain since the Act of Union. I can say it is 1914, well before the first world war.
France = hard to determine when was her peak. but it could be either
- 1660s
- The First Napoleon empire.
- Third Republic. maybe 1890s... this was when France have Africa and Southeast Asia turf. (and this was when Siamese hate french. for taking what WE (ok I'm one) considered 'our land')
Spain = 1600. just before the 30 years war... and yes it was Habsburg Spain/Spain as a part of Holy Roman Empire.
Prussia/Germany= Bismarc days. William II ruined everything Bismarc spent decades to build. If he heed Bismarc warnings that Balkans conflict doesn't worth Germany's expenses. The first world war may not even occurs AT ALL. and Austria will even becomes a turf to either France. Brits. Russia. and maybe. Germany!
Rome = 0AD. and Olympian Romans only! not the baptisted Romans.
The Ottoman Empire = 1500s. before losing Vienna and Malta campaigns.
Russia/Soviets = 1960s. right after Vietnam reunited.
China = counting its dark age is much easier than its peaks. China was a sole superpower in the far east since Han Dynasty. its only true dark age was since the rise of Cixi Taihao throughout the Republic days. the Mao regime was a 'rebirth' era.
Winner
Diverse in Unity
People who put the apex of American power to the period after Cold War are mistaken. USA in 1991 was *not* more powerful relatively speaking than it was in 1945. It was just an illusion created by the collapse of its arch-enemy.
They attempted to parachute in natives who were either refugees or American citizens who spoke the language fluently, after giving them training in espionage/ sabotage, in an attempt to foster the nascent guerrilla movements post-WWII. All the attempts were absolutely miserable failures, largely because the Soviets had infiltrated the American military and intelligence communities to such an extent that they weren't just aware of the plans, but often actively behind them so as to get their hands on emigres. I don't know of any instances after the Korean War broke out.
Surely having no serious rivals is a fairly good definition of 'being on top' and therefore the height of relative power?
Winner
Diverse in Unity
Not really. The presence of a common enemy gave the US a great deal of influence over its allies in Europe and elsewhere. When this threat disappeared, the US dominance has been eroded since the allies realized that they didn't need the US so much as before.
But more influence everywhere in the world outside of Western Europe... actually I don't even buy "less influence over our (Western) European allies."
Considering that it's nearly impossible to tell what is 'American influence' and what is 'European states doing what the Americans want because it fits in with the strategic goals of said European states', it's debatable whether the US has all that much 'influence' over its allies, for hte simple reason that they've never had cause to seriously disagree.
arya126
Squad Leader
That has been made public you mean. I am sure they have far more disagreements than they let on. One case, although I am not familiar with the intricate details of it, if when Obama started to advocate for a 2 state solution with Palestine and Israel (That is what he was advocating when trying to re start peace talks right? It was a while ago, and I had not followed it that closely). Israel was clearly in disagreement with the US, and i think that it is a perfect example of how american influence has eroded in recent years.
I dont know about the 90's and Clinton Era, but I have lived through the latter part of the Bush Era following politics, and all of Obama's term. I have to say, we still had formidable influence under Bush, even though we were pretty hated outside of the west because of many of his and his administrations actions. Under Obama, I have seen a steady decline in our influence with other nations, and the Israel example is but one of said examples, one that popped into my head. The illusion that America still holds considerable influence over the west is because of how similar our aims are on most things, and that neither Europe nor America really wishes to make bad publicity with public disagreements. Except the French of course. I dont think many americans care about the French.
In any case:
The USA - Immediately after WWII
UK - Years leading to WWI
France - First half of the 18th century/1890's.
Spain - Late 1500's, early 1600's I suppose.
Prussia/Germany - Bismarck Era. No question.
Rome - 100 AD give or take a few years.
The Ottoman Empire - 16 century I suppose?
Russia - Near Future.
USSR - Probably around the early 60's/early 80's.
China - Near future.
1. I disagreed that the USA golden age begins right after second world war ended. Didn't Soviets get numerous turfs throughout the course of the war?
2. Russia has also seen golden ages before. i think during the reign of Czarina Katyusa or Czar Pyotor. Sweden and Poland was clipped off and the First true Russian Empire was born then. by taking the Polish and Swedes turfs.
3. the USSR. it's DEFINITELY 60s. when they've finally developed numerous Nuke ICBMs and able to shake the US of A during Cuban crisis.
4. China was never meet its dark ages until the Opium Wars. the decline began with the rise of Ming dynasty (and their Isolationism)
That is recent years. I would say immediately following the Cold War would be the height of US power. The only challenger is gone, the EU is still still emerging and Europe has no real cause to challenge the US. Everyone is elated at the great victory and the US is quite popular. It is only in the 2000s that the US lost most of its political capital and goodwill from a decline that began in the late 90s.
Britain in relative terms would be the either 1815-1850 before Germany and the US rose as major callengers or just prior to WWI. Following the Civil War, Britain was stronger than the US, but their growth meant that they could become a major power at any time and threaten even Britain on the high seas. It just wasn't until WWII that they were forced to fully go through with it.
The Soviets would depend on your definition. In 1945 we now know that they were right near the breaking point, but they held considerable power since people did not realise this. The same can be said of the 1980s, they were near the breaking point but few realised it. In real terms their height was probably the 60s.
RedRalph
Deity
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2007
- Messages
- 20,708
Yeah and when there is no one left who can challenege you, you are doing pretty well. When you have an enemy who has just taken control of half of Europe things don't look as certain at all... anyway, mine
The USA 1992-1997
UK - I can't pin down one specific time but mid 1880s
France - Napoleonic Europe
Spain - no idea
Prussia/Germany - 1940 - 1945
Rome - no idea, around the time Jaysus was around I suppose
The Ottoman Empire - some time in the 1600s
Russia/The USSR - 1975 - 1980
China - yet to come
...half of a hastily-depopulated continent with devastated industries and infrastructure. Yep, Europe was really worth having in '45.
The German period shouldn't extend until their defeat in 1945; at that point, they were devoid of allies, invaded on two fronts, blockaded, and their infrastructure devastated. Hardly an influential power, if you ask me. I think a better period would include their territorial expansion in the late '30s, and the early part of the war. Maybe 1938-1943.
I'd figure France's peak was centuries ago--Napoleonic France was the last time France was the dominant continental power. Louis XIV's reign might be a good time period to look at, or any time when the Bourbons were also in control of Spain, securing a major colonial power at the time as well as their SW flank.
arya126
Squad Leader
1. Yeah eastern europe was soooooo important and valuable after WW2. No, no, no world war was just raged on the land that the soviets just captured, as well as having the most valuable part of their homeland in ruins and basically a smoking wreck after the war.
2. Did I ever say they did not? In any case, we are not speaking of 'golden ages' as you say. A country can be at the height of their power outside its golden ages you know. In any case, I highly doubt Russia was all that influential just because they chipped some land off of Poland and Sweden. Maybe with their neighrbors, maybe. But that sort of influence would be nothing compared to the near future. In any case, I think that they will far surpass any of their peaks of power of the past in the near future. They control the oil flow for alot of europe, are modernizing their military, and we depend on them for transport to the ISS, among other things.
3. Perhaps in hard power. But being at the peak of a country's power requires more than mere hard power. In the 80's, although I am not an expert, I believe they were perceived to be very powerful, perhaps more powerful than in the 60s especially when you take into account the meaning of 'relative power'. In hindsight, you might think the USA was much more powerful compared to the USSR, but at the time, many people thought they were still on the rise. Vietnam was Communist, and they had just entered Afghanistan which set off alarm bells all over the western world. It wasnt until the late 80's that they even displayed the slightest weakness, and nobody preicted that their collapse was imminent, at least nobody that I know of.
4. This is not talking about whether it was in a dark age or not. It is talking about the peak of its relative power, and I can assure you that since Europe pulled out of its dark ages, China became less powerful, both in hard terms, and in relative terms. The Ming and isolationism might have been the lowest point for them, but their high point is still to come. I havent yet seen anyone dispute that in this thread.
The decline of the US started with the collapse of the Soviet union. The west no longer needed America to keep the Soviets in check, and therefore started to realize they could not follow our every whim. Lucky for us, our aims and strategic goals wind up being similar.
This is where your definition of power comes in. While they had significant percieved power (as in 1945) if push came to shove they lacked any real power. In the 1960s they had somewhat less percieved power but had considerably more power if something had occurred.
Except that did not become evident and nobody acted on it before the late 1990s. Before that even when they weren't seen as needed the US had considerable soft power through goodwill and was generally respected throughout both Western and Eastern Europe
RRRaskolnikov
Goldfish
Isn't the end of the direct Capetians a "good" period also (before the last three and the 100 years war)? I am thinking at Philip IV times. I would have first replied this or Louis XIV period, but everybody seems to think at Napoleon?
@Ralph:
USA: from WW1 till now
UK: 19th century
France: 17th century is the safe answer
Rome: no clues. sometimes in the first two centuries?
Ottomans: Suleiman era?
Russia: Before comrade Stalin
Spain: 16th century
Prussia/Germany: Bismarck era. (Austria deserves to be in the list somewhere)
China: no clues, soon?
Several large wars, two revolutions, collapse of empire, civil war - all in less than 30 years.
RRRaskolnikov
Goldfish
Several large wars, two revolutions, collapse of empire, civil war - all in less than 30 years.
before that
When would you put it yourself (seeing your location, u have prolly more knowledge on the matter, and prolly a different point of view as well)?Seeing your nick, I thought you might have a similar location (or origin)before that
As for my opinion, I've already put it in this thread.
Spoiler :
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