*Where* is US health care so darn expensive?

[Arwon]

Such a pretty fantasy. Unfortunately, it is wrong. The purpose of the state is to enable the politically powerful to steal from the politically powerless. BTW, we live in a world of limited resources. "Universal availability" is just another fantasy put forward by ******s who have no notion about how the world actually turns.

Who are the "politically powerful" and the "politically powerless" and what part of my access to public healthcare is a fantasy, exactly?

Or the healthcare of the Germans or Canadians here? Where is the fantasy? Why do you claim to understand some truth unavailable to those of us who actually live the systems you decry?

 

[Antilogic]

Source?
How the heck can you know that, if it hasn't been implimented. You really trust the math? I don't.


Seriously, this type of claim needs to be supported by fact... not just statements on the internets.

Take a brief gander at the OP.

 

[Arwon]

In the UHC system, and the accompanying higher taxes, you effectively take more people out of that "can afford" bracket... because private insurance will be a luxury few can afford...

This is actually false if you look at Australia.

 

[Leonel]

This is actually false if you look at Australia.

I believe that's also the case in Hong Kong too

 

[Abegweit]

Who are the "politically powerful" and the "politically powerless" and what part of my access to public healthcare is a fantasy, exactly?

One rule: the poor do not have political power. Doctors have power. Pharmacists have power. Drug companies have power. Bureaucrats have power. Ordinary people do not.

Or the healthcare of the Germans or Canadians here? Where is the fantasy? Why do you claim to understand some truth unavailable to those of us who actually live the systems you decry?

What? Where did you get this idea that I haven't been subjected to government-inflicted "health-care"? I am Canadian and have been forced to live under the worst regime possible. I watched the bureaucrats kill my girl friend's father. They murdered him. Literally. As I said, bureaucrats have power. So there were no punishments for what they did.

 

[Arwon]

So the poor are... better off without universal healthcare? That's gonna need a pretty hefty [citation needed]. I'm really sorry, but the fact that you know someone who died while in healthcare, or while not getting a treatment that was needed, actually proves literally nothing about a system which is by any reasonable metric one of the better functioning ones out there. Other people are going to have their own anecdotes that say precisely the opposite to yours.

 

[Abegweit]

So the poor are... better off without universal healthcare? That's gonna need a pretty hefty [citation needed]. I'm really sorry, but the fact that you know someone who died while in healthcare, or while not getting a treatment that was needed, actually proves literally nothing about a system which is by any reasonable metric one of the better functioning ones out there.

Do you really want the details? He had suffered a stroke so he couldn't talk, although his daughters always managed to communicate with him after that. He lived on his own in a very nice seniors building. He had a bracelet with a little button he could push in case of emergency. One day he fell in the bathtub so he pushed the button. With that, he signed his death sentence. I went to see him in the "hospital" about 48 hours later. Lying on a stretcher in a corridor. Unshaven. With bedsores. I shaved him. I cleaned his balls. Unfortunately none of us really knew what we were doing. After about a week the bureaucrats shifted him from the stretcher into some waiting-to-die unit. When he finally did, he looked like a holocaust victim.

Other people are going to have their own anecdotes that say precisely the opposite to yours.

I really doubt that. The Canadian health "care" system tried to kill my own father too. He was stronger so they didn't succeed. They did, however, destroy his health. Eventually he died too. I can give you the details on that one as well but you probably don't want to mess up your fantasy.

 

[Arwon]

If there was an issue of negligence or malpractice that is tragic, but nothing you've said even indicates that. I'm honestly not sure what this has to do with universal health insurance or public healthcare. All you've said are that you know people who have died or nearly died in hospitals?

I think most of us do, personally my grandparents who have died have recieved good care in public systems and private. My grandfather died anyway. If there was a lack of beds or staff I might blame inadequate funding for hospitals, but are you suggesting people don't die in private hospitals or in countries without universal health insurance? To blame a hospital for "trying to kill" someone is a really big claim to make and I hope you've taken it up with a legal firm or a health ombudsman.

 

[Abegweit]

If there was an issue of negligence or malpractice that is tragic, but nothing you've said even indicates that. I'm honestly not sure what this has to do with universal health insurance or public healthcare. All you've said are that you know people who have died or nearly died in hospitals?

I think most of us do, personally my grandparents who have died have recieved good care in public systems and private. My grandfather died anyway. If there was a lack of beds or staff I might blame inadequate funding for hospitals, but are you suggesting people don't die in private hospitals or in countries without universal health insurance? To blame a hospital for "trying to kill" someone is a really big claim to make and I hope you've taken it up with a legal firm or a health ombudsman.

It really amazes me to see how state-worshippers explain away state atrocities. Hint: being kept in a corridor for days on end without so much as shaving is not health care.

 

[Arwon]

Does this not happen in countries without universal health insurance? If the issue is under-resourcing then why is the answer not simply more resources?

Did you seek legal redress?

 

[Cutlass]

Single-Payer Health Care: $570 Billion Cheaper

Posted on Apr 14, 2012
david drexler (CC-BY)

Economist Gerald Friedman has what looks to be the silver bullet against the claim that single-payer health care is infeasible on economic grounds, showing how “Medicare for all” could save billions of dollars while improving millions of lives.

Study his easy-to-grasp charts and figures explaining how to fund the plan and how much it would save in the two-page document linked below. —ARK


Gerald Friedman at Dollars & Sense:

The Expanded & Improved Medicare for all act” (HR 676) would establish a single authority responsible for paying for health care for all Americans. Providing universal coverage with a “single-payer” system would change many aspects of American health care. While it would raise some costs by providing access to care for those currently uninsured or under-insured, it would save much larger sums by eliminating insurance middlemen and radically simplifying payment to doctors and hospitals. While providing superior health care, a single-payer system would save as much as $570 billion now wasted on administrative overhead and monopoly profits. A single-payer system would also make health-care financing dramatically more progressive by replacing fixed, income-invariant health-care expenditures with progressive taxes. This series of charts and graphs shows why we need a single-payer system and how it could be funded.

More HERE

 

[Tabarnak]

It really amazes me to see how state-worshippers explain away state atrocities. Hint: being kept in a corridor for days on end without so much as shaving is not health care.

I understand your thoughts. I work in a hospital since years and i can see some failures from our free and universal system. It's far from perfect, and humans are humans. They can make mistakes. The problem is that more large a group of workers is, larger the mistake % can be high.

I would like to see a universal system but implemented into more local attributions. With the % raise of old people for the next 20 years, we will face a serious problem. More tiny and dynamic systems can be partial solutions to this problem. Families will need to take more care of their old men/women too. Good thing you were there to take care of your girlfriend's father.

It have been proved many times. A universal system is globally more effective than a private system. Some scandinavian countries have already proven it.

I'm sorry about you and such but my father who died 1 year ago from a cancer have received very decent treatments and i thanked a lot the public etablishment who took care of him. It's just too bad that some cares can really differ from a place to another. At best, you can pay extra bills and receive faster treatments from a private company. Better? Not sure. Faster? Yes. Unfortunately.

Instead of squanding his fortune into health care and make other people more rich my family and i can benefit his delegations. And mention all the stress than we saved from $ problems during all these years.

Trust me. A universal system should exist for everyone in the world.

 

[Cutlass]

Research released this week in the American Journal of Public Health estimates that 45,000 deaths per year in the United States are associated with the lack of health insurance. If a person is uninsured, "it means you're at mortal risk," said one of the authors, Dr. David Himmelstein, an associate professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School.

The researchers examined government health surveys from more than 9,000 people aged 17 to 64, taken from 1986-1994, and then followed up through 2000. They determined that the uninsured have a 40 percent higher risk of death than those with private health insurance as a result of being unable to obtain necessary medical care. The researchers then extrapolated the results to census data from 2005 and calculated there were 44,789 deaths associated with lack of health insurance.

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-09-18/...melstein-debate-over-health-care?_s=PM:HEALTH

 

[galdre]

The health care system here in the US is one of the main reasons my partner and I plan on moving back to the UK (where we lived for 2 years) despite other things that we prefer in the US

 

[Abegweit]

Does this not happen in countries without universal health insurance?

I have been in hospitals in three countries: the US, Japan and Canada. I don't know which one of the three has the best health system but I sure as hell know which one is the worst. I never saw people on stretchers in corridors in either Japan or the US but it's everywhere in Canada. This is an inevitable consequence of socialism. It is exactly the same as people lining up at butcher shops in the old Soviet Empire. Exactly the same.

If the issue is under-resourcing then why is the answer not simply more resources?

Oh yeah, sure. Throw more money at it. The Fraser Institute did a study on this and concluded that more money actually made the lines longer (they are talking about the waiting time before getting what is called "elective" surgery). It's not difficult to see why. More money goes to the bureaucracy, not to actually providing services. The bureaucrats use this to interfere with the people on the front lines. Much the same as the bureaucrats who prevent folks from opening up businesses.

Did you seek legal redress?

As I said it was my girl friend's father. His family did not sue. In any case, this is not unusual. It is normal. He wasn't the only one in those endless corridors. There were dozens, maybe hundreds. There was a woman who endlessly yelled over and over and over again: "It hurts. It hurts". She was ignored just the old man without a voice was.

This is socialism in action. Canada is in a select group of three countries which actually ban private medical care. The other two are Cuba and North Korea.

 

[Arwon]

Japan has universal healthcare and heavy regulation of expenses too, and thus by implication "rationing", so I really don't see your point. In fact, OECD stats say in Japan 81% of health expenditure is by the government compared to 71% in Canada. If you want to say the Canadian system sucks, then whatevs, but that's not an indictment on universal healthcare, public health systems, government regulation or government expenditure.

And mate, if you never saw overcrowded or under-resourced hospitals in the USA I'd strongly suggest you haven't seen all parts of the United States healthcare system. And of course note that they have a system which excludes millions from recieving healthcare at all.

I am also curious how you think Canada has such good health outcomes and life expectancies if the hospitals are all red butcheries thoug. Canada's life expectancy and infant mortality are essentially identical to Australia's, after all, and we are hardly struggling.

Finally, when you say "private healthcare is banned", do you mean there are no private insurers, no private hospitals, no privately practicing doctors...? Define your terms, man! Cos I looked it up and in Canada 70% of health expenditure is government money, and in Australia it's 67%. Which would suggest our systems are fairly similar. And of course Japan, France and Germany all have higher government shares of expenditure.

 

[Abegweit]

I have another personal anecdote for all those who think that socialism is the solution to over-regulation (which is the reason for high medical prices in the US).

I know two people who have had brain aneurysms (blood vessels which explode in the brain, letting blood seep out into the bottom of the skull). Both lived out in the boonies about two hours from a major hospital. It is important to understand that minutes count in treating this.

One was my father, in Canada. He was talking on the phone with a friend, said he felt funny and then the line went dead. This was about 10:00PM. The woman he was talking to rushed over to my parents' house, found dad on the floor, woke up my mother and they took him to the local hospital. About 20 minutes away. He spent the entire night in the "emergency" room passing in and out of consciousness while he was literally drowning in his own blood.

Finally at 8:00AM the following morning he actually got to see a real doctor, who correctly diagnosed what was happening. The first step to treating this is minor surgery - installing a drain to let the blood out of the skull and stop it from soaking up the brain. Of course, they couldn't do this. Not allowed, according to statist rules, so he was sent on a two hour ambulance ride to the nearest authorized doctor with his life slipping away every minute.

I got to the "hospital" later that day as he lost consciousness for the last time. I think he recognized me but I really don't know. Three weeks later, the doctors said there was no hope and my mother signed papers agreeing that, in the case of further deterioration, they could let him go. He actually came out of the coma and six months later, I had my dad back. He was a shell of his former self but he was back. He never really recovered but at least we had him for a few more years. During the six weeks he was in that hospital, four more men from our island showed up there too. Dad was the only one to come back.

I met the second person I know who had an aneurysm several years later in upstate New York. Her husband took her to a local hospital. She was diagnosed immediately and helicoptered to a hospital in Rochester. I met her about a month after her surgery. I could not see any evidence that she had ever had any issues.

So this is personal. Socialism kills. Socialism destroys. I have seen what it has done to my own family.

To all you no-clues who think it just magically can... magically... something, all I can say is that you have no clue. None.

 

[Abegweit]

And mate, if you never saw overcrowded or under-resourced hospitals in the USA I'd strongly suggest you haven't seen all parts of the United States healthcare system.

Yeah. I haven't seen the VA. I sure that it is pretty much the same as Canada.

And of course note that they have a system which excludes millions from recieving healthcare at all.

Bull.

when you say "private healthcare" is banned, do you mean there are no private insurers, no private hospitals, no privately practicing doctors...?

Umm. Basically. Yes.

Define your terms, man! Cos I looked it up and in Canada 70% of health expenditure is government money, and in Australia it's 67%. Which would suggest our systems are fairly similar.

No it wouldn't. In Canada, competition with the state system is forbidden. However, the drug programmes and a lot of other things which the state doesn't take care of are privately funded.

 

[Arwon]

So um. Why can I find private Canadian hospitals and individal general practioner doctors and insurance companies on Google then?

And what do you mean by "competition with the state is forbidden"?

Your anecdotes really don't explain much or convince. I'm not sure why you've sheeted home blame to "statism" and universal health care here. It seems to be a personal obsession to which all bad things are blamed and attached.

 

[Abegweit]

So um. Why can I find private Canadian hospitals and individal general practioner doctors on Google then?

Hint: you can find plenty of "private" companies who supply ammo for the War on Terrah.