Which FfH leader would run the most/least pleasent empire to live in?

Yeh the elohim are pretty awesome. They'd be my favourite civ if they had more unique art.
 
Many seem to have Bannor pegged for dragging you off to concentration camps or something. I don't see that. (and if you do, I think you are reading more into them than is there) The Bannor aren't about ruling the world, or or fanatacally wiping out all others. They are about disicpline.
A Bannor soldier is not going to sack your land on the way back from a crusade (like the real crusaders). They won't shake down local merchants. They won't usurp the ruling lords. They do
exactly
what they are told, until an order violates their laws, in which case they are immobile.
Unless they are infiltrated or slowly corrupted over time (a possibility; Kael has said it was happening in his old game--but not the default assumption) it would probably be a decent place to live. Perhaps like Israel; used to constantly fighting for their lives, every citizen is expected to be able to fight if need be (though in reality in pre-industrial times most of the population even here must be farmers or fishermen or herders).
Of course, while it's silly to assume independant thought is ruthlessly punished, it isn't encouraged. If art and culture is your deal, you want kuriotates, or Balseraphs if you enjoy a walk on the wild side (and enslavement--don't assume only foreigners will be in those cages.) But there would be a strong kinship, esprit de corps, between most people. It would be like being in the marines, probably with less cursing. Not exactly pleasant... but when the brutal Doviello, wild Clan, or Infernals come around, the discipline pays off, not just for them, but for all their non-evil neighbors. Other Civs may resent their wars because they think the alternative to war is peace--but given their foes, it is more likely that the alternative is enslavement or death.
Likewise, a devotion to law doesn't mean harsh treatment for minor offenses. Laws can be just or unjust; but the key is that they are consistent, unless there is corruption, allowing people to live their lives free of the fear that the local rulers can come and take whatever they please without even a pretext of justice. And if a civ represents a more cosmic or abstract law, serves a god of law, that implies that law is not just rules, but justice. So it is silly to think that they go around throwing people into the dungeon for picking their nose or what have you.
Now of course, in such a society, if an evil leader gained power and managed to change the law and such, he'd have a powerful weapon for oppression. And in the real world, or a darker version thereof, that's a possibility. But wicked leaders are a possibility under the Elohim or Kuriotates just as much.
 
Nikis-knight: point taken about the Bannor. Not a nice place to live, but a safe one. At the same time, however, that is also precisely the reason why I would NOT want to live with the Elohim or the Kuriotates. Safety comes first in this nasty world.

However, I still prefer the Grigori, because their diplomacy of neutrality would protect them from harm, without actually going to war bashing everyone like the Bannor.
 
Yeah, Malakim society wouldn't be bad, but I don't think I'd enjoy living in their desert climate. I still think that the Elohim would be best, followed by the Luchuirp, followed by the Grigori.
 
I also think that while life in the Bannor would be tough and spartan that it wouldn't be horrible. If my ancestors had survived a journey through hell, and I was living in a world of petty, warmongering, vindictive gods and some of our enemies had armies of DEMONS, while other wanted to destory creation and bring about the end of the world I certainly would rethink my stance on religious devotion and fanaticism in general. I would take some comfort in living in a highly structured military oriented society in a world full of demons, dragons, zombies, demon worshippers, orcs, ogres, barbarians, magic, angry gods, and otherwise just your run of the mill hostile humans. Especially when my people had been delivered from damnation once.
 
korn469 said:
I also think that while life in the Bannor would be tough and spartan that it wouldn't be horrible. If my ancestors had survived a journey through hell, and I was living in a world of petty, warmongering, vindictive gods and some of our enemies had armies of DEMONS, while other wanted to destory creation and bring about the end of the world I certainly would rethink my stance on religious devotion and fanaticism in general. I would take some comfort in living in a highly structured military oriented society in a world full of demons, dragons, zombies, demon worshippers, orcs, ogres, barbarians, magic, angry gods, and otherwise just your run of the mill hostile humans. Especially when my people had been delivered from damnation once.
Click to expand...

This is a good take on the Bannor. For all their devotion to a strict hierarchy the one thing thats different between them and earthly "facist" societies is that the Bannor have a really good reason to be like that. In hell any members mistake would doom the group. They moved through hell as perfectly organized military units. Every aspect of their life was detailed and perfected to minimize risk and protect the community. Any weakness was exploited by the demons and used against them. It didnt matter if that weakness was military, greed, ego, etc etc. Those that were unable to sumlimate their individual desires were abandoned or killed rather than allow the risk to continue.

The result of that on the gene pool and the culture is immense. They are suspicious of the unusual, comfortable with the predictable, and intolerent of those that value themselves above the community. Their strength is their weakness (FfH tends to be about unbalanced ideologies, the gods themselves are fractured concepts personified with little respect for their balancing attribute).

Just like in all socieities there are good and evil members (well.. any good people who live in the Infernal lands certainly don't want to be there). I always think about Maraphene as the perfect example as evil among the Bannor, methodical, aggresive, talented and ambicious:

Valin led Saverous to an old section of the town, set off the docks and buried in a maze of warehouses was a small neighborhood of cramped houses and cobblestone streets. A plaza had been torn up to make way for a statue of a charging knight with a sword blackened from the tip to halfway along the blade. The knight held the sword in both hands, determination set in his face against the undisplayed enemy, or perhaps he was intended to be forever attacking the small fish market he faced.

“Who is the knight?” Saverous asked. He had been about to ask about eating but the octopi hanging in front of the fish market had ruined his appetite.

“You don’t know him? That’s the man that freed you, legionnaire Gil-ganthor of the First Light, he killed the Burnt Priest. His sword is supposed to be turned black where it touched the priest’s blood. He is an advisor to the emperor now, and he holds about as many titles and rewards as the Order can give.”

On the other side of the market was a squat building with sign in front of it that read, “Fennigrins Tooth”. Valin tied his horse to the post in front of the inn.

“You know all the nice places.” Saverous said, pointing to carriage waiting beside the building. The carriage was well appointed with deep scarlet silk hanging over the windows and obscuring most of the brass frame. Each side of the carriage had the gold symbol of a wavy blade in front of the sun inscribed on it. A guard stood in front of the carriage with pole axe taller than Saverous. He wore a loose shirt tucked in scarlet gloves and tied close with bronze colored cords around his forearms. He had a similar design on his leggings, boots and cords around his calves.

“It’s a confessor, a relatively new rank in Alexandria. They were priests trained to fight the forces of the Burnt Priest; exorcists, diviners, bloodletters. With the war over most turned to enforcing justice in the empires cities, quite a few came to Alexandria.”

They entered the inn. A guard dressed like the one in front of the carriage stood in front of beige brick staircase leading up. A girl washed already clean tables and a portly man with devastatingly bad mustache stood behind the bar absent-mindedly wiping glasses.

Valin walked to the bar and told asked the portly man for a room.

“I would be happy to sir but I am afraid our rooms are closed at the moment. Could I offer you and your friend a hot meal while you wait and a tidy room as soon as one becomes available?”

“That’s fine, there is no hurry. It is easier for a man to eat while tired than sleep while hungry.”

Valin smirked at his wit but the innkeeper ignored it, glancing nervously at the guard at the bottom of the stairs as if bad humor was a crime. When the innkeeper didn’t respond Valin dropped a few coins on the bar and continued.

“Could you have someone tend to my horse as well?”

“Of course sir,” the innkeeper replied, knocked out of his thoughts by the sound of coins “I’ll have my Annie get to that right away. Have a seat and I will fetch your dinner and even light a fire if you would like.”

The innkeeper did as promised and soon Saverous and Valin were seated before a fire, eating stew and fist sized rolls with thick, almost leathery skin and soft centers.

As they ate a call came from upstairs, “Pelicus!”. The guard immediately charged up the stairs, lowering his pole axe so it could fit up the stairwell. A few minutes later he came down escorting a haggard man wearing a white linen shirt, with long braided hair. His skin was pale and hung in loose waves off of his bones. The back of his neck and his hands were wrapped in bandages and they were soaked with blood. He looked like a man past death but not allowed to die.

He staggered behind the guard, falling into him. The guard grabbed the back of his neck, causing the man to let out a course cry and sob uncontrollably, and forced him out of the inn.

More scarlet came down the stairs, a woman in long embroidered robes with her hair tied back by gold circlets. The bartender and the girl doubled their cleaning efforts as she entered. The woman stopped at Saverous and Valin’s table considering both of them, Valin didn’t look up from his food.

Saverous did, and noticed the woman had brown eyes so light they were almost yellow. She stood staring at Valin and when he didn’t say anything she started the conversation:

“Returned to ask forgiveness brother Valin?”

Brother was a term used for a common layperson, a farmer who attended church on Sunday. In other places it would be a term of familiarity and friendship, but in the highly regimented stations of the Order it was an insult.

“I seek the forgiveness of Junil wherever I am, there is no reason to return to Alexandria for it.”

She smirked, “You still profess a devotion to Junil even though you mock his church. You claim to follow the god of law while you disobey them.”

Valin didn’t respond.

She turned to Saverous, “And you, did you know that the man you eat with is nothing but a humble peasant, a former knight stripped of all standing? Or has he tried to claim some authority with you that he doesn’t possess, has he led you to believe that he is a knight in the service of Junil?”

Saverous didn’t answer, he just stared back at her. Again came her twisted smirk and she placed her hands on the table, leaning in by Saverous’s ear where she whispered, “Confess”.

Saverous felt a welling inside his chest at the word, as if the answer was being pulled up his throat and out of him and he found himself saying, “Yes, he told me he was in the service of Junil.”

She leaned back, pleased with herself. “This is a dangerous game you play rogue knight, you had some friends among the elders but I don’t think your lawlessness will go unpunished for long. Do not be surprised if one day you find an oathtaker has come for you. In fact, I might be negligent in my duties if I failed to bring you in for this heresy.”

In another world, a world of dust and shadows, Galenna stood over Valin. She was an angel of Junil and heard him silently praying for help, to make this go away, to be able to stay on his task. The inn room was nothing but grey with a few reflections from objects or people of powerful faith or emotion. A knife on one table had been used to kill a man and in this world it lay still with the blood on it. The spirit of a prostitute who had been strangled in one of the rooms sat rocking in the stairwell corner, staring at Galenna and refusing to believe she was dead.

The people in the inn room were represented here, grey and distant. In this world a feathered serpent coiled around the woman’s neck, whispering into her ear. As she considered turning Valin in the serpent eyed the angel and whispered again, cautioning her against it.

She didn’t hear the serpent, not as a person would hear another, but it guided her more than any verbal advice. She leaned away from the table and considered the two, unwilling to leave without making one more attack, uncertain of how to proceed. The serpent provided the answer.

“Why do you stay in an inn when you have a home in this very city? Have you visited your wife or son yet?”

Valin met the woman’s yellow gaze. Galenna put her hands on his shoulders, comforting his spirit.

“No, I have not seen them.”

“Ahh..” she continued, “aren’t you worried about how they fare without you?”

“I trust that Junil will provide for them while I obey his commands.”

She smiled. “Oh, he has provided for them, provided her a new husband and a bed for them to share. For your son a new father, one who is not a traitor to the church.”

Galenna cried the tears that Valin wouldn’t show. Valin’s faith dimmed at the words, his reflection in this spiritual world faded.

Happy with the effect of her words the woman turned and left the inn room, leaving the two companions alone, the bartender and girl had long since fled.

Saverous broke the silence.

“And all this time I thought you guys grew flowers, danced and sung songs about sunshine and friendship. That woman would have been at home in the burnt priests army.”

“That was Maraphene, a confessor of the Order, and a very successful legion-dosen that would have garnered herself a few more ranks if the war had continued. I almost think she was sad to see it end. Her skills aren’t particularly suited for the domestic life.”

Saverous took another mouthful of bread, “All the good people I met on the battlefield and somehow I missed her, it’s a shame.”

Valin offered a weak smile at the joke. He was on this quest to find Saverous’s salvation and Saverous was trying to comfort him. He wondered how a man who had been the forefront of a demonic army could become good, or how he had gone from being a paladin in high standing to whatever he is now. And for whatever evils Maraphene was capable of, Valin knew she hadn’t lied.
Click to expand...
 
So Kael, after the mod is finished, how about thinking about a novel? =P
Whenever you share the pieces of Saverous' story I always wanna go out and buy the whole book...
 
Yeah, at that point Sabathiel had already abandoned the Bannor and the church was starting to drift away from its mandate of justice and towards and earthly beurocracy. Valin broke with the church to do what he felt Junil was guiding him to do, but he still has a lot of self-doubt about it.

I would love to write a book one day. I have lots of ideas for stories and characters, but I really need to polish up my writing ability. I think the ideas are the hard part though so its doable, and I wouldnt expect to create anything of value without needing a significant ramp up time to become proficient in the project. So someday, hopefully.
 
*seconds that*

And I got the whiff that Maraphene waws being less deliberately evil and more beurocratic, stiff, and unwilling to place any sort of higher good than the instructions of "He is a traitor to the church, therefore prosecute him (Valin)"


Edit- Whoops, came out after Kael's post. Sowwy.
 
Ur_Vile_Wedge said:
*seconds that*

And I got the whiff that Maraphene waws being less deliberately evil and more beurocratic, stiff, and unwilling to place any sort of higher good than the instructions of "He is a traitor to the church, therefore prosecute him (Valin)"


Edit- Whoops, came out after Kael's post. Sowwy.
Click to expand...

Your right though, Maraphene would never imagine that she is evil.
 
I assumed that the feathered serpent means that she was under demon influence, unbeknowst to her. I'd probably guess one of the lesser fallen angels of Mammon, although it could also be one of Esus or a fallen angel whose god is not fallen (possibly once an angel of Sirona, since it seems to be the opposite of spirit/wisdom, and since her archangel has feathers).
 
Excellent analysis of the Bannor Nikis, reminds me of an old quote:

"The dove believes the choice is between fighting and not fighting, the hawk believes the choice is between fighting now and fighting later, when your enemy is strong enough to defeat you".
 
Compared to some of the other characters, who are randomly getting possessed by demons, chased by angry mobs, tortured in exotic ways....... he doesn't have it *so* bad for someone on Erebus, especially a good guy.
 
Fenboy said:
"The dove believes the choice is between fighting and not fighting, the hawk believes the choice is between fighting now and fighting later, when your enemy is strong enough to defeat you".
Click to expand...

As someone who owns a pet dove, I can tell you they are not nearly as peaceful as peaceful as people tend to assume. She used to constantly bully our other bird (a cockatiel which died a few years ago), quickly pecking in her direction but rarely actually hitting her. (I also knew someone who has a dove, a cockateil, and a cat who said that the cockateil was afraid of the dove, and that the cat was terrified by both birds.)

Of course, this quote wasn't really about birds, but types of people with different views on war.
 
:lol: A very hawkish dove, you might say.
 
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