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Which Polynesian civ?

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by Greywulf, Feb 3, 2018.

?

Which Polynesian civ?

  1. Tonga

    10 vote(s)
    19.6%
  2. Samoa

    2 vote(s)
    3.9%
  3. Hawaii

    9 vote(s)
    17.6%
  4. Maori (New Zealand)

    26 vote(s)
    51.0%
  5. Other (please share)

    1 vote(s)
    2.0%
  6. Keep it "Polynesia"

    3 vote(s)
    5.9%
  7. Hiva (Marquesas Islands)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Patine

    Patine Chieftain

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    @Greywulf and @PhoenicianGold I couldn't help but notice an anomaly between your two civ wishlists on your avatars, if I may point this out. You both have Stefan Razvan as a leader you'd like to see, but @Greywulf lists him as a leader of the Romani Nation, and @PhoenicianGold lists him as a leader of Romania. Last I checked, despite generally being found is same rough parts of Europe, Romani and Romanians are not at all the same people, ethnically, linguistically, culturally, religiously, or in origin, and, in fact, historically Romanians have supressed and, for centuries until the mid-19th Century, outright enslaved Romani people. This conflation quite confuses me.
     
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  2. PhoenicianGold

    PhoenicianGold Chieftain

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    We've discussed this in depth in the "Romani" civ thread. Basically, you are correct that the two are not the same thing at all. However, Romania serves as the point of origin into Europe from which all Romani migrated, and also holds the largest Romani population in Europe. Thus, our proposed Romani civ is largely represented by the Roma, which are Rumanian Romani (confusing, no?).

    My motivation for listing Stefan under Romania has less to do with what the civ is called and more to do with the region. If we get any sort of civ from Romania (or the Balkans generally), I want the Romani to represent that. I also suspect that the Romani wouldn't complain at all if their civ were called "Romania," as a sort of inside joke that depicts them as taking back that region of the country.

    However, to avoid confusion, we have agreed in the Romani thread that they probably should be called "Roma," or alternatively "Romani."

    But I'll be keeping my inside joke for now.
     
  3. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

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    Indeed, I am well aware. To clarify, Ștefan Răzvan seems to me to be one of the more ideal choices for a leader of a Romani civ (and especially if the focus is on the Roma tribe ~ the largest tribe in Europe). He was half Roma and half Romanian, which would make this leader choice a nice gesture of peace and goodwill between these two peoples. My hope is that including a Roma tribe or Romani Nation as a civ would help fight against the racism that still exists against Romani people, and to help gain more awareness of this ethnicity (For instance, many people are not aware that using the "G" word is similar to using the "N" word. Both are offencive to the respective peoples involved).
    Feel free to discuss this in the Romani civ thread here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/romani-civilization-feasible-controversial.628139/page-3
     
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  4. Patine

    Patine Chieftain

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    I'm quite opposed to this casual conflation. Personally, Vlad Tepes (a national hero in Romania to this day) I think would be a far superior, iconic, and much better-known choice for ROMANIA than inserting, completely unrealistically, a Romani leader. However, I have no objection to Razvan being a ROMANI leader, I just don't think conflating the two is at all attractive.
     
  5. PhoenicianGold

    PhoenicianGold Chieftain

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    Well I don't find your casual pop culture obsession with a tyrant at all attractive.

    They each ruled only a third of Romania, and Vlad enslaved over 10,000 Roma, in addition to other war atrocities. He may be a national hero, but he doesn't represent much of anything admirable about Romania.

    I certainly would have considered acquiescing a request to change my sig that came from a place of respect. But your tone is so whiny that I'm going to leave it. You should really work on your persuasive skills.

    Not to mention you don't seem to have thoroughly read either of our responses.

    Also, you're derailing this thread.
     
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  6. Patine

    Patine Chieftain

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    That's actually par for the course for most significant Medieval rulers. His only difference was being particularly flamboyant about his atrocities, which were otherwise commonplace for most rulers in his era, even ones who've made it into Civ and become iconic leaders there (Isabella and Genghis Khan come to mind, but there are quite a few others), and the fact that LATTER-DAY historians, not ones contemporary to him, chose to overly focus on that aspect and, of course, he became fictionalized and dramatized in Bram Stoker's gothic horror novel.
     
  7. Gedemo

    Gedemo Cacique

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    Coming back to the topic, I find it hard to deal with polynesian civs without talking about the Moai and Eastern island.
    Like stonehenge or the pyramids, Moai are kind of symbols of past civilization. Rapanui, which build this monumental statues and mysteriously disappeared, really match the theme of "rise and fall" ages.
     
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  8. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

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    Thank you for bringing us back on topic.

    We've actually discussed the Moai statues in this thread before. The conclusion was that they would make an interesting wonder, but it doesn't make sense to have them as a UI or UB, as they really weren't beneficial to the Rapa Nui, and they represent that culture's self destruction. It was interesting seeing them used the way they were in Civ V, but that was very fantasy, and didn't fit with the real history of Polynesia. Also, it looks like Firaxis is moving away from the idea of having blob civs, so we can expect to see a single Polynesian kingdom/empire in the game, rather than all of Polynesia represented by one civ that is called "Polynesia". What this means is we are less likely to see the Moai statues as a UX for the Polynesian civ, unless they pick the Rapa Nui as the chosen civ (and they are not the most likely choice, but there are quite a few Polynesian civs that make more realistic choices for Civ VI). There's a good chance we will see one of these three Polynesian civs: Tonga, Hawaii, or the Maori. Neither of these built anything like the Moai statues, but they did all build tikis, so how do you feel about tikis instead?
     
  9. Gedemo

    Gedemo Cacique

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    if Moai statues are at least a wonder, I'm ok with it. Hangaroa could also be a city state with a unique improvement (like the olmec colossal head of La Venta).
    I'm ok with Tikis (I've made a mod for King Roymata of Vanuatu who has the Tam Tam, that is similar).
    Another idea could be Opuhara, the last Ari'i of Tahiti. Tahiti is also a good representative choice of the polynesian culture/area.
    In civ 5, I was a fan of the Tu'i Tonga civ in the polynesian split mod.
     
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  10. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

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    Moai statues as a UI for a Hanga Roa CS would be pretty cool. I like that idea a lot actually.

    What do you think of the design we have for a Tongan civ?
     
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  11. humble serf

    humble serf Chieftain

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    The big problem with most Polynesian civ options at this point in the Civ 6 cycle is gameplay diversity. The two most interesting features of a Hawaiian/Tongan/Samoan/Rapanui civilisation should logically be the ability to cross ocean tiles early, and the ability to settle tiny islands more successfully than the average civilisation -- both of which are already taken. Indonesia has spectacularly cornered the market on tiny islands, with one of the coolest unique features in the entire game. Kampungs are so much fun that a lot of players (myself included) will start a game as Indonesia purely for the builder satisfaction of developing some huge-ass kampung cities. It would be very difficult to give a Polynesian civ a UA or UI based around settling small islands that didn't A) fall way short of the kampung, or B) suck some of the fun and distinctiveness out of Indonesia. Meanwhile, Norway already gets to embark and cross the ocean earlier than any other civilisation and is widely regarded as a low-tier civ, so recreating the Civ 5 Polynesian ability of *immediately* embarking and crossing the ocean --- which a Hawaii/Tonga/Samoa/Rapanui civ would *need* to be able to do to avoid being condemned to a 1-tile island until at least the Classical era on TSL maps -- would make the Polynesians objectively better than Norway at one of the very few things Norway is actually good at in this game.

    However, we're still definitely getting a Polynesian civ at some point in this cycle (and I'll be mad as hell if we don't), so my money is on the Maori, who could be adequately represented in-game without needing a focus on transoceanic voyages and flourishing cities on tiny islands. Lautaro already took a few unique features which would have been cool for a Maori civ (combat strength vs. golden age civs, culture from tile appeal), but there's still plenty to work with. Personally I'm not a fan of the tiki as a UI (not when we already have the chemamull), but how about the marae as a monument replacement? The unit could go one of two ways: an early game Eagle Warrior-type UU which encourages early conquest, or a Malon Rider-type UU replacing the musketman. I've always felt that Mana could make for an interesting ability, perhaps granting faith and/or culture on kills by units within a Great General's aura. Personally I'm not a huge fan of warmongering civs, but it feels like a role the Maori are destined to play if they're included in Civ 6 (and I suspect they will be, thanks to the Indonesian and Norwegian problems above).

    But if you're not satisfied with the Maori, I do have two potential work-arounds for your Hawaiian/Tongan/Samoan civ design. How do you recreate Polynesian geography in-game without stealing Indonesia's thunder? You let the Polynesians build districts (but probably not city centres) on water tiles. Have the district appear as an atoll (probably composed of three islands, allowing space for the standard 3-buildings-per-district). The in-game explanation for the ability would be that the atolls had always been there, but only the Polynesians saw the potential to settle there and make use of the land available. This would be tough to balance, but perhaps we could do something similar to the Seowon rules (not that Seowons are balanced, but you know what I mean). Let's say Polynesian districts have to be placed in open water (not adjacent to any land tiles) to avoid any adjacency bonus shenanigans. Districts receive, say, a +2 adjacency bonus if they are completely surrounded by empty water tiles, which is reduced by 1 for every adjacent district. This would have the effect of making Polynesian cities look like vast, sprawling archipelagos, with "islands" (districts) usually spaced two tiles apart from each other. You could potentially also give adjacency bonuses for fishing boats (I find it difficult to estimate what kind of numbers would be balanced without actually seeing it in-game).

    And how do you introduce Polynesians who can cross the ocean on turn 1 without stealing Norway's thunder? Buff Norway. They're in desperate need of a little nudge towards founding a pantheon or earning a prophet. Toss that in alongside the Polynesian DLC/mod/expansion and you're all set.
     
  12. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

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    The wayfinding ability is a major attraction for Polynesia as a civ, and is the main reason why they are considered a niche civ...would they even be a niche civ without it? I'm supportive of niche civs, but take away what makes them so niche and I'm less interested. It's true that Norway does have a similar ability, but their version complements a more militaristic approach to it ~ which does make sense for the Viking concept. I just hope that this doesn't steal Polynesia's thunder, so to speak, as Polynesia needs this wayfinding ability. That being said, it's probably quite fine to have two civs in the game that have a similar ability, especially if the ability is particularly niche. Honestly, I am comfortable with having Polynesia with wayfinding along side Norway with their Longships ability ~ it might even be fun to see two early ocean baring civs competing on the same map.

    The thing is that if they choose the Maori specifically, they will be military-focused. With respect for the Maori, a primarily militaristic strategy is not what I want at all for Polynesia. Granted, if they were to a) add two separate Polynesian civs, or b) give Polynesia two leaders that represent different parts of Polynesia, then I'd be all for seeing the Maori as one of those two, but as they secondary choice. Nothing against the Maori, but I have a clear idea of what I want from a Polynesian civ, and the direction that the Maori would go strategically is not what I want. Then again, the majority of people do prefer a militaristic Polynesia, and therefore obviously the Maori will lead the poll ~ took me by surprise to be honest, but that's that.
    Ideally they make everyone happy by adding two leaders/civs, but I don't think that is very likely. Holding my breath now that I get the Polynesia that I want...

    That is an interesting compromise, however I must say that I want Polynesia to actually have the ability to be vast and sprawling, and not to just superficially appear to be vast and sprawling. Not that this idea can't also be included...Might complement that wayfinding ability quite nicely actually. I think it could work as an additional ability, rather than something that replaces their most niche ability.

    Exactly. Buff Norway, and problem solved.
     
  13. humble serf

    humble serf Chieftain

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    Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a Polynesian civ based around wayfaring and building cities on tiny islands (I voted for Tonga, for what it's worth), and in many ways I wish Indonesia had been designed a different way. My dream would be a Tongan or Hawaiian civ with early oceanic travel and the ability to build districts as atolls on ocean tiles -- I'm just not sure it's still possible for the devs to create that kind of Polynesia in Civ 6. Under another name, the kampung has all the right yields and all the right mechanics to be some kind of Polynesian UI enabling them to colonise the ocean without being totally bereft of housing and hammers. Australia already has bonus housing for coastal cities as a CUA. How do you make Polynesia's tiny island cities viable without just giving them re-skinned kampungs or Land Down Under?

    Without the inclusion of the districts-on-water-tiles idea, I think this is more of a map script problem than anything else. I'd love to see a Polynesian civ which truly sprawls out across an entire ocean in the same way that other civs can sprawl across a continent, but mid-oceanic cities can rarely find the space for more than a single (non-harbour) district -- and that's without even factoring in population problems or production yields.
     
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  14. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

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    Australia's (*cough*) ability is pretty minor in the sense that it will be a problem of civs being too similar. Indonesia's UI is more to the point here, I would say. It would be helpful to give Polynesia a way to use water tiles more, especially considering the way cities have changed in Civ VI.

    So how about we go with a combination of the wayfinding ability and the atoll idea that you suggested? And how would we make that really stand out as different to the kampung UI, yet beneficial for Polynesia when it comes to building cities on tiny islands? (I might actually like this idea more than the tiki, to be honest...just gotta do it right)
     
  15. humble serf

    humble serf Chieftain

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    So it seems like there's two features we definitely want in a Polynesian civ, and each of them comes from a different "half" of the unique features. Wayfinding is going to come from either the LUA or the UU, and island cities are going to come from either the CUA or the UI. As I see it, these are the current ideas we have to choose from:

    Wayfinding
    • As an LUA: Polynesian units can embark from the beginning of the game. Naval and embarked units can enter ocean tiles after researching Celestial Navigation. This LUA might also grant a unique ancient/classical naval unit, but then we really would be rubbing salt in Harald's wounds.
    • OR as a UU: Polynesia gets a unique scout replacement, perhaps the Waka Tīwai, which can embark and cross ocean tiles without any technology requirement. This unit would receive increased speed and line-of-sight while embarked, and would share its embarkation abilities with all the units in its formation (settlers, builders, GPs, missionaries, etc.)
    I really like both of these ideas. I think the scout would be more fun to use (sending off tiny embarked outriggers to explore the ocean on turn 4), but I feel like you'd end up with a very disjointed/isolated pre-Cartography empire if the only thing which could travel from one city to another was your scout. Although maybe that would encourage players to build a large number of Waka Tīwai to transport their builders, settlers, great people and missionaries across the ocean to all their far-flung island cities, which is everything I ever wanted in a Polynesian civ design.

    The LUA is objectively more powerful, but I think I prefer the UU as a way of introducing wayfinding. It's admittedly a little weird for the Polynesian scout to be called "Waka Tīwai" when he's on land (and turning the scout into a pure naval unit would make Polynesia almost unplayable imo).

    Island Cities
    • As a CUA: Polynesia may build districts as atolls on water tiles not adjacent to land. Districts receive a +2 adjacency bonus in open water and an additional +2 from reefs, but receive a -1 for every adjacent district.
    • OR as a UI: We pick a specific victory type (culture seems the most logical) and give Polynesia a unique district of the appropriate type (theatre square, campus, holy site or encampment) which can be built on water tiles.
    Personally I much prefer the CUA option, for the sake of flexibility, avoiding a one-trick-pony victory condition, and most importantly because a tiny island city doesn't become more viable just because it has a single theatre square on an ocean tile. Unless the Polynesian theatre square gets some insane bonuses, I say we ditch that idea altogether and stick with atoll districts as a CUA.

    So that leaves us with two uniques still to come. Assuming we stick with atoll districts as the CUA, we still need to settle on:
    • The leader ability (unless Wayfinding is the LUA), depending on the leader we pick.
    • The unique unit (unless the outrigger scout is the UU).
    • The unique infrastructure.
    As for what features a Polynesian civ should have (now that we've covered the essentials), I feel like they're still missing a source of culture and tourism which would push them towards their most logical victory type. They also still need a way to compensate for the lack of housing and production on tiny islands.

    Given that Civ 6 is tending towards a de-blobbing of its civilisations, I say we decide whether this design is going to become Hawaii, Samoa or Tonga and then pick out a leader before we try to come up with its final two unique features.
     
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  16. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

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    I really like these actually, especially the CUA for Island Cities. I agree that the CUA is better than the UI, or at least makes better sense to me, and is less likely to be similar to the kampung.

    How do you feel about the different UX we brainstormed for the Tongan Empire civ?

    With your adjustments, it could potentially look like this (tho I've adjusted to UU to replace the galley instead)...


    Tonga Empire.


    King Tuʻi-tā-tui of the Tongan Empire.

    Leader ability: Shell of Sāngone. Gains additional era score for discovering new islands/continents. +2 housing in each of his cities after he establishes a trading post there.

    Agenda: Tu'i Tonga. Likes civs who have open borders, but dislikes civs who don't. Likes civs who settle on the mainland.


    Civ Bonus: Polynesia may build districts as atolls on water tiles not adjacent to land. Districts receive a +2 adjacency bonus in open water and an additional +2 from reefs, but receive a -1 for every adjacent district.

    Unique Unit: Pôpao/Va'a (Outrigger canoe). Replaces the Galley. Travels swiftly across ocean tiles with additional line of sight. Can grant an embarkation and ocean crossing ability to all the units in its formation (settlers, builders, GPs, missionaries, etc.).

    Unique Improvement: Fale Tele. Replaces the Amphitheater. Grants bonus production equal to the district's adjacency bonus and receiving an additional +1 culture for every seaside resort worked by the city in the late game. Additionally provides +2 loyalty when one of its Great Work of Writing slots is filled, and another +2 when they're both filled.


    Capital: Mu'a.

    Other cities: Nuku'alofa, Neiafu, Haveluoto, Vaini, Pangai, Ohonua, Angaha, Kolonga, Hihifo, Tafahi, Petani, Holonga, Apia, Ata, Falevai, Falaleu, Malapo, Nomuka, Fonoifua, Matuku, O'ua, Tungua, Vaipoa, Ovaka, Salega, Talau, Popua, Kotu, Tofua, Kao, Lotofoa, Lofanga, Uiha, Fakahiku, Alofi, Ha'afeva.

    Spy names: Lo'au, Kae, Longopoa, Sinialu, Fasi'apule, Toiukamae, Salote, Papiloa, Lolofonua, Sangone.

    Citizen names: (Male) Afah, Isileli, Kapo, Malohi, Tokoni, (Female) Kahoa, Lotu, Paame, Siale, Talanoa. (Male Modern) Anitelu, Falakiko, Lakepi, Ptolomeo, Sione, (Female Modern) Emeni, Kiupita, Langi, Musika, Safaia.

    Colors: Tan and red.

    Symbol: Sea turtle tattoo.


    Music:



    (With the help of this Civ V mod: http://civilization-v-customisation.wikia.com/wiki/Tonga_('Aho'eitu))
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2018
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  17. humble serf

    humble serf Chieftain

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    Yeah that looks like a really solid design, I much prefer the UU as a galley replacement as well. I'm still a little hung up on production and housing for ocean cities, though, and I'd consider maybe a slightly bigger nudge towards a cultural victory-oriented playstyle, so if I was gonna make a couple of additional suggestions:
    • I love Momo's era score for exploration, but I don't think his trade route bonus is really pulling its weight yet. Civ 6 doesn't actually distinguish between land and water trade routes (as far as I know), and the Cree already have the same thing but better. Instead of claiming tiles, how about Momo gets +2 housing in each of his cities after he establishes a trading post there (ie. at the end of a successful trade route)? I think Momo makes sense as an AI who focuses on domestic trade routes, shipping goods from island to island as he attempts to keep all of his far-flung colonies well-supplied -- and domestic trade routes are a great source of hammers for cities on small islands. Plus, on the rare occasions when Tonga gets truly shafted by map generation and ends up deep in the middle of a continent without access to any of its other unique features, +2 housing per city would keep them from being totally useless.
    • I'm not an expert on this and I might well be wrong, but are tikis actually a traditional part of Tongan culture? My understanding was that they were unique to New Zealand and Hawaii, and a cursory glance at the Wikipedia article for "Tiki" seems to suggest they are also traditional in the Cook Islands, the Tuamotus, the Marquesas and on Tahiti -- but that they are not found on Easter Island or in Western Polynesia (which includes Tonga and Samoa). Instead, I'd suggest the Fale Tele as a replacement for the amphitheatre, granting bonus production equal to the district's adjacency bonus and receiving an additional +1 culture for every seaside resort worked by the city in the late game. Alternatively, if I'm completely wrong and the consensus is to stick with the Tiki, I think it might be more useful in-game if it were switched to a monument replacement, perhaps granting +2 production if the city centre is on the coast and +1 Great Artist point while the city is at full loyalty.
    • I also think Momo's agenda is a little too close to Gitarja's; perhaps it could be simplified to liking civs which grant him open borders and disliking ones that don't. Alternatively it could be switched to a reverse-Wilhelmina thing (to synergise with his LUA) where he prefers making only domestic trade routes, likes leaders who do the same, and dislikes leaders who trade too much with other empires -- but that doesn't really feel right for an empire built around exploration and exchanging goods between different island groups.
     
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  18. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

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    Edited the post just above to include your suggestions. What do you think?
     
  19. Jordan_D

    Jordan_D Chieftain

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    Looks like it's been mentioned a lot on here already, but I really enjoyed the Polynesian split mod in Civ V. It's probably my favorite mod for that game and easily the one I went back to the most (I tend to only use mods once to twice and look for something else but I used that one tons). I really liked Hangaroa in particular and I've also been fascinated with their culture so I may be a bit biased.

    Otherwise, I'd be interested in Maori, though it be pretty cool to see Nan Madol as a wonder.
     
  20. humble serf

    humble serf Chieftain

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    Looks great to me; exactly what I'd want in a Polynesian civ -- and Tonga is a great choice as a single representative of de-blobbed Polynesia.

    As a purely cosmetic change, I've flipped through a few articles on Tongan monarchs and it seems like there are better leaders than Momo available (although I'd keep the same agenda and LUA regardless of who was chosen). Momo's major claims to fame seem to be forcing his people to shuffle around on their asses in his presence (so they wouldn't be taller than him), and forcing a lesser nobleman to divorce his wife so that Momo could marry her -- the event which his LUA "Fena kā ko Nua" is currently named after. By contrast, his son Tuʻi-tā-tui seems to have no shortage of more prestigious, kingly tales about himself -- crushing a rebellion in Samoa, expanding the size and prestige of the royal compound, owning a beloved, semi-divine pet turtle (how about "Shell of Sāngone" as the name of his LUA?), and reforming the court so that the kingship became a more powerful position, elevated much higher above the lesser chiefs than it had been before. I love Queen Salote as well, but given the era she lived in (long after the great Tongan voyages of discovery and colonisation of new islands, which is what the current LUA represents), she would probably turn into a Robert the Bruce-type of leader with her own specific LUA that probably wouldn't synergise with the rest of the civ design -- and our vision for an ocean-sprawling Tonga requires a huge amount of synergy between all the different unique features in order for it to work. And then there's ʻAhoʻeitu, who seems to be the most significant and lasting national hero among the Tongan kings. Gilgamesh proves that semi-legendary figures are fair game for Civ 6, and if I were to guess who the devs would pick if they were to create a Tongan civ, my money would be on ʻAhoʻeitu.

    To be fair though, Momo might make for an interesting AI personality to meet in-game, albeit a fairly pompous and unlikable one. Either way, I think the current list of unique features is pretty much perfect, and the LUA and agenda should stay the same no matter which leader gets picked to represent the civ.
     
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