Which Polynesian civ?

[Patine]

There's a good chance we will see tattoos on a non-Maori Polynesian leader as well.

Like the Tahitian, Samoan, and Tongan ones, who were wearing them LONG before the Maoris cribbed them from them, as examples...

 

[Greywulf]

Like the Tahitian, Samoan, and Tongan ones, who were wearing them LONG before the Maoris cribbed them from them, as examples...

Exactly!

Which one are you voting for? And would you be willing to support a Tongan vote?

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Ok, so let's try to brainstorm a Tongan civ...

Tonga Empire

UA: Wayfinders - Coast and Ocean tiles act as sources of fresh water. All units can embark across ocean tiles from the start of the game.

UB: Tiki - Replaces the shrine (We need the Tongan word for "Tiki", as that is a Maori term).

UU: Pôpao - (Outrigger canoe) replaces scout. Travels swiftly across ocean tiles with increased line of sight.

Momo

Need to work out a specific Ability and Agenda for Momo of Tonga...


How's that so far?

I would still call the outrigger a va'a' to incorporate a bit of Samoan influence (in the same way Austria had hussars in V).

By similar logic, I would infer that the Tongan word for Tiki (if Maori is vaka and Hawaii is wa'a) would probably be Ti'i (if the Maori word is tiki and the Hawaiian cognate is ki'i).

Momo

Ability: Tu'i Tonga. Gains additional era score for discovering new islands/continents. Something something trade routes during a golden age.

Agenda: Friendly Islands. Likes all civs. Especially likes civs with open borders. Dislikes civs with warmongering or casus belli, unless in a Protectorate War.

I doubt it. The several New Zealanders I've seen post here have all said they don't want a NZ civ.

I think he means they want something to fill the NZ region, regardless of whether it is New Zealand or Maori. It just happens that, like Chileans, they all support the same civ for the region. And I think he's right; I think players want Maori and Hawaii primarily for how well they fill out a TSL map. Hell, it's why I still find the idea so tempting as well.

 

[Greywulf]

I would still call the outrigger a va'a' to incorporate a bit of Samoan influence (in the same way Austria had hussars in V).

By similar logic, I would infer that the Tongan word for Tiki (if Maori is vaka and Hawaii is wa'a) would probably be Ti'i (if the Maori word is tiki and the Hawaiian cognate is ki'i).


Momo

Ability: Tu'i Tonga. Gains additional era score for discovering new islands/continents. Something something trade routes during a golden age.

Agenda: Friendly Islands. Likes all civs. Especially likes civs with open borders. Dislikes civs with warmongering or casus belli, unless in a Protectorate War.

I would settle for "va'a" as the name for the outrigger unit. It sounds kinda cool anyway.

Their "tiki" UI, would they be giving them culture as well? I'd like them to generate a decent amount of culture, and later tourism.

That's a good motivational idea for gaining additional era score when discovering new islands or continents...That would do quite nicely! I think they could also get some bonus to sea trade routes, which they would be doing more of anything, rather than land trade routes.

The Tongans were not always so friendly though (Apparently the Tahitians were among the most friendly Polynesians), so I'm not sure about this Friendly Islands ability, and about liking all civs. Maybe something that makes them rather possessive over islands? Which would fit with their history of conquering and controlling a fairly large chunk of Polynesia. The liking civs with open border is good. Not sure about the dislike of warmongering and casus balli either?

Do we know if Nukuʻalofa was always their capital, or if it has changed from another city?

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Their "tiki" UI, would they be giving them culture as well? I'd like them to generate a decent amount of culture, and later tourism.

I'd just make it like the Chemamull. Generates culture and tourism. Or maybe have it generate culture early and tourism later. I really, really dislike how the Chemamull was implemented so in any version of the game where Tikis could exist, the Chemamull would need to be patched to be more military/culture based rather than tourism.

That's a good motivational idea for gaining additional era score when discovering new islands or continents...That would do quite nicely! I think they could also get some bonus to sea trade routes, which they would be doing more of anything, rather than land trade routes.

Then maybe make them similar to the Cree? Sea trade routes grant extra territory?

The Tongans were not always so friendly though (Apparently the Tahitians were among the most friendly Polynesians), so I'm not sure about this Friendly Islands ability, and about liking all civs. Maybe something that makes them rather possessive over islands? Which would fit with their history of conquering and controlling a fairly large chunk of Polynesia. The liking civs with open border is good. Not sure about the dislike of warmongering and casus balli either?

I'm mostly going off their nickname. I mean, compared to the Maori every Polynesian civ is friendly. Also, the entirety of Polynesia had a pretty robust trade network; if Tonga were at the center of it that simply couldn't have happened if they were particularly militaristic.

Do we know if Nukuʻalofa was always their capital, or if it has changed from another city?

The capital of the Tongan Empire was Mu'a (which is a small district on Tongatapu outside of Nuku'alofa).

 

[Greywulf]

I'd just make it like the Chemamull. Generates culture and tourism. Or maybe have it generate culture early and tourism later. I really, really dislike how the Chemamull was implemented so in any version of the game where Tikis could exist, the Chemamull would need to be patched to be more military/culture based rather than tourism.

Yeah, I agree. Now that we have the Chemamull, we should assume that they won't be changing that. Could we make the tikis a little different, but not too different?

Then maybe make them similar to the Cree? Sea trade routes grant extra territory?

Oh, actually I like that!

I'm mostly going off their nickname. I mean, compared to the Maori every Polynesian civ is friendly. Also, the entirety of Polynesia had a pretty robust trade network; if Tonga were at the center of it that simply couldn't have happened if they were particularly militaristic.

Fair enough, although the Tongans were fairly militaristic, the Maori kinda outdid everyone else in Polynesia in this regard (consider the Musket Wars, and what happened to the Moriori people).
I'd still think they'd have an agenda that makes them seem more possessive over islands, which would fit with the Tonga especially. Maybe they dislike civs that settle small islands? Or maybe they especially dislike it when they settle islands that are close by? That would encourage them to declare war on neighboring islands. On the other hand, they could like civs that build their cities on the main land.

The capital of the Tongan Empire was Mu'a (which is a small district on Tongatapu outside of Nuku'alofa).

Cool, good to know! Mu'a can be their capital then. You seem to know a lot about Polynesia, my friend.

 

[Greywulf]

~ Good to see Tonga is getting more votes.

 

[Patine]

Exactly!

Which one are you voting for? And would you be willing to support a Tongan vote?

I could support such a vote. I'm a bit dubious on how much these polls on private fan sites (even prominent ones, like CivFanatics) actually REALLY influence these game designers' decisions, but I suppose a vote doesn't cost anyone, and it's not the kind of poll that'll register me for a "black list."

 

[Greywulf]

I could support such a vote. I'm a bit dubious on how much these polls on private fan sites (even prominent ones, like CivFanatics) actually REALLY influence these game designers' decisions, but I suppose a vote doesn't cost anyone, and it's not the kind of poll that'll register me for a "black list."

Polynesia was polled and shown to be popular before we saw them in Civ V, but more than that they included ideas that the fans had. The fans wanted Kamehameha the Great for the leader, the fans wanted Moai statues included, the fans wanted the ability to be able to embark straight away...I do think they are paying attention to the fans.

Thank you for your support, by the way.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Samoa are a significant Polynesian kingdom, but Tonga appears to have been more historically significant, even having an empire. Would you be willing to back a Tongan vote?

I'm not picky when it comes to which Polynesian Civ, as long as we get some sort of representation in the game. I just thought Samoa would be the most interesting in my opinion. They seem to be the less militaristic out of either Tonga or Maori and that's usually how I play. Also I would maybe want something different than Hawaii even though Kamehameha would be relevant and a prime leader choice.

 

[Havendish]

Introduce Maori please. Their warriors were famous for their bravery and were already in as Polynesia's UU in Civ5.

Still, if blobbed in as Polynesia and the Maori warrior included, give them their ship/boat ocean-crossing from outset called CATAMARAN, make them able to colonize early, add the Moai as their Tile Improvement and I'm just as happy.

 

[Greywulf]

I'm not picky when it comes to which Polynesian Civ, as long as we get some sort of representation in the game. I just thought Samoa would be the most interesting in my opinion. They seem to be the less militaristic out of either Tonga or Maori and that's usually how I play. Also I would maybe want something different than Hawaii even though Kamehameha would be relevant and a prime leader choice.

Samoa would also be a decent choice. Tonga was, for a time, called the "Friendly Islands", which shows that they were not always militaristic (certainly not as much as the Maori were). I think if we had Tonga, they would not be overly focused on military.

Introduce Maori please. Their warriors were famous for their bravery and were already in as Polynesia's UU in Civ5.

Still, if blobbed in as Polynesia and the Maori warrior included, give them their ship/boat ocean-crossing from outset called CATAMARAN, make them able to colonize early, add the Moai as their Tile Improvement and I'm just as happy.

I'm not sure how much of this thread you have read yet, but we were discussing the Moai statues before. They really aren't a realistic tile improvement for a civ, and historically they represent a civ's self destruction, so they are not really something beneficial. They would make an interesting wonder, but the Polynesian civ should more realistically have something else for their UI. Tiki was suggested, which would make sense for multiple Polynesian cultures, or as a blob civ.

Outside of the Maori, which Polynesian civ would you like? Because I'm hoping for a less militaristic Polynesia, and I really want that wayfinding ability, which the Maori are unlikely to have.

 

[Greywulf]

~ Another possibility as to why the Maori are so popular: Perhaps the majority want to have a militaristic Polynesian civ. If so, then the Maori would be the way to go.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

~ Another possibility as to why the Maori are so popular: Perhaps the majority want to have a militaristic Polynesian civ. If so, then the Maori would be the way to go.

I mean Civ is historical Disney football, so there is a tendency for players to migrate toward options based on survivability. Was it big? Gotta have it. Was it ruthless? Gotta have it. Did it win a lot? Gotta have it.

I love the Maori, too. I still wouldn't be unhappy with a Maori civ. I just think that there are more interesting things about Polynesia than warriors, which are literally the unifying feature of every civ in the game so far. We have judo Cree. JUDO CREE.

I'm growing tired of military UUs and VI's persistent focus on military prowess/defense, and for that reason alone I'd rather we get some weirder civs. Make us a Sweden that makes furniture and scouts on reindeers. Make us a Morocco that steals ships and gold. Make us a Tibet that does nothing but culture bomb everyone and trade in yak milk. And make us at least one Polynesian civ that charms the pants off me with tropical beauty. These are the kinds of civs I want to see more of.

 

[Patine]

I mean Civ is historical Disney football, so there is a tendency for players to migrate toward options based on survivability. Was it big? Gotta have it. Was it ruthless? Gotta have it. Did it win a lot? Gotta have it.

I love the Maori, too. I still wouldn't be unhappy with a Maori civ. I just think that there are more interesting things about Polynesia than warriors, which are literally the unifying feature of every civ in the game so far. We have judo Cree. JUDO CREE.

I'm growing tired of military UUs and VI's persistent focus on military prowess/defense, and for that reason alone I'd rather we get some weirder civs. Make us a Sweden that makes furniture and scouts on reindeers. Make us a Morocco that steals ships and gold. Make us a Tibet that does nothing but culture bomb everyone and trade in yak milk. And make us at least one Polynesian civ that charms the pants off me with tropical beauty. These are the kinds of civs I want to see more of.

But Tibet had a VERY militaristic and expansionist period between the 7th and 13th Century where it was historiographically referred to as "the Tibetan Empire" and it's rulers title was tantamount to an "emperor." The theocratic authority of the Dalai Lamas didn't start until a remnant Mongol Khan who'd converted to Tibetan Buddhism granted such authority outright, initially backed by his own military forces. The Western stereotype that Tibet was kind of always the Lamaist theocracy with a reputation of peace and harmony, back into time immemorial prior to 1959, is not at all accurate.

 

[Phrozen]

I'd just make it like the Chemamull. Generates culture and tourism. Or maybe have it generate culture early and tourism later. I really, really dislike how the Chemamull was implemented so in any version of the game where Tikis could exist, the Chemamull would need to be patched to be more military/culture based rather than tourism.

Tikis were deified ancestors and marked the boundaries of sacred and holy sites. Faith and later tourism makes the most sense and could be a shrine replacement. The chemamull was a grave marker. They weren't specifically religious objects on the other hand the rehue alters were.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

But Tibet had a VERY militaristic and expansionist period between the 7th and 13th Century where it was historiographically referred to as "the Tibetan Empire" and it's rulers title was tantamount to an "emperor." The theocratic authority of the Dalai Lamas didn't start until a remnant Mongol Khan who'd converted to Tibetan Buddhism granted such authority outright, initially backed by his own military forces. The Western stereotype that Tibet was kind of always the Lamaist theocracy with a reputation of peace and harmony, back into time immemorial prior to 1959, is not at all accurate.

I know this. But every "empire" had a strong military. I'm trying to think of civs that can be "characterized" in interesting ways, like Scotland and the golf course or Japan and the electronics factory. I think Tibet is far more likely to be included as filling that "role" than as yet another military civ. And it did have at least patches of cultural/peaceful leaders historically.

Tikis were deified ancestors and marked the boundaries of sacred and holy sites. Faith and later tourism makes the most sense and could be a shrine replacement. The chemamull was a grave marker. They weren't specifically religious objects on the other hand the rehue alters were.

The game mostly represents "faith" as "loyalty to institutionalized, state religions." It would feel disingenuous to claim that tikis could fill that role when there is no "Polynesian" religion in the game, nor really should there be. The compromise that the game seems to make is that lasting architectural testaments to past cultures (states and religions) generate "culture" instead; perhaps not a state religion but contributing to the diversity of a civ's history. The tikis by far represent this aspect of Polynesia, given that their value ever since Christianization has been as a cultural icon rather than a religious icon.

I never said that the Chemamull should function as a religious improvement. I said that they shouldn't function as a tourist improvement, and should function as a military improvement. There is nothing about the Mapuche or Chemamull that begs tourism bonuses, certainly nowhere near as much as actual tourist destinations like Polynesia.

 

[Greywulf]

Tikis were deified ancestors and marked the boundaries of sacred and holy sites. Faith and later tourism makes the most sense and could be a shrine replacement. The chemamull was a grave marker. They weren't specifically religious objects on the other hand the rehue alters were.

If it replaces the shrine then it would need to still generate faith, I would say. It should also generate culture however. At least one of Polynesia's abilities should generate culture for them. The problem is to give them stats that are both unique, beneficial, and not OP.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

If it replaces the shrine then it would need to still generate faith, I would say. It should also generate culture however. At least one of Polynesia's abilities should generate culture for them. The problem is to give them stats that are both unique, beneficial, and not OP.

And tourism! More tourism than the Mapuche! All the tourism!

 

[Patine]

And tourism! More tourism than the Mapuche! All the tourism!

I've never seen a brochure or ad from a travel agency promoting trips to Chile to look at Mapuche gravesites, I'm afraid to say...