sophie
Break My Heart
Well played, sir, well played.
Which real race were the Orcs modelled upon?
- Thread starter Kyriakos
- Start date
Well played, sir, well played.
aelf
Ashen One
That is not inconsistent with the terribly racist Spenglerian view on Western and other civilisations.
Thank you all for the replies. The reason i asked was that currently i am creating some orc buildings and run out of concept art i could model, so guessing what real race might have been behind them would help me make more without demanding specific art by others 
Evie
Pronounced like Eevee
If you squint and turn your head just the right (wrong) way.
As ever, there are racist issues in Lord - Easterling and Southron, and the physical description of Orcs all come to mind. But trying to shoehorn the elves as an Aryan master race of some sort flies in the face of the written book. The Elves are presented as a people who never really belonged in Middle Earth (they returned to it in defiance of the will of the Gods), whose presence in Middle Earth has resulted in very little good and much ill, and who definitely don'T belong anymore. They know this, and are just cleaning up the last they can, clinging to the dying shreds of their universe but sacrificing them by giving the human the necessary knowledge to defeat evil.
As ever, there are racist issues in Lord - Easterling and Southron, and the physical description of Orcs all come to mind. But trying to shoehorn the elves as an Aryan master race of some sort flies in the face of the written book. The Elves are presented as a people who never really belonged in Middle Earth (they returned to it in defiance of the will of the Gods), whose presence in Middle Earth has resulted in very little good and much ill, and who definitely don'T belong anymore. They know this, and are just cleaning up the last they can, clinging to the dying shreds of their universe but sacrificing them by giving the human the necessary knowledge to defeat evil.
I really think this is an A&E question, not a History one, since it's about the intentions of a novelist.
Tolkien consistently represents the Orcs as speaking like Cockneys, or at any rate working-class Londoners from the East End, so I would look there for any real-life inspiration behind them. I would say that the "racial" divisions in Tolkien's world reflect not "racial" divisions in the real world so much as social ones. The Hobbits are all upper-middle class characters - or their servants - and inhabit the same world that Tolkien himself did: middle class of the Edwardian/inter-war period, minor wealth, public school, Oxbridge, male. Every word that Frodo, Merry, and Pippin say drips with the atmosphere of that world. The Elves are upper class, and the Orcs are urban working class - both of them not as they really are or were at that time, but as someone of Tolkien's background would perceive them.
Tolkien consistently represents the Orcs as speaking like Cockneys, or at any rate working-class Londoners from the East End, so I would look there for any real-life inspiration behind them. I would say that the "racial" divisions in Tolkien's world reflect not "racial" divisions in the real world so much as social ones. The Hobbits are all upper-middle class characters - or their servants - and inhabit the same world that Tolkien himself did: middle class of the Edwardian/inter-war period, minor wealth, public school, Oxbridge, male. Every word that Frodo, Merry, and Pippin say drips with the atmosphere of that world. The Elves are upper class, and the Orcs are urban working class - both of them not as they really are or were at that time, but as someone of Tolkien's background would perceive them.
classical_hero
In whom I trust
That description above does sound far more reasonable than it being due to "race". But that description also reminded me of this. 
Link to video.
Link to video.
That description above does sound far more reasonable than it being due to "race". But that description also reminded me of this.
Link to video.
Oh man. I always had this song stuck in my head back in the day. It's catchy.
GoodGame
Red, White, & Blue, baby!
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- 13,725
It probably comes from the Roman god of the underworld, Orcus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orcus
Based on the wiki, I'd bet that the pig-faced image came from Renaissance writing. The well known Renaissance fantasy Orlando Furioso probably founded it.
And then the modern era ran with that:
holy king
Deity
take your pick what the fictional characters even look like, before asking what they are based on...
So he stated, but never the less, he seemed to use it quite often.
Heretic_Cata
We're gonna live forever
Ah, a thread where we have to pick which race is full of ugly, unwashed, smelly, evil, dumb people. We need threads like this more often.
Sounds like Tolkien visited Australia.
Zack
99% hot gas
Definitely marathons.
classical_hero
In whom I trust
You can speak about yourself that way.
I can certainly speak about my neighbours that way. All of them.
I've been away on vacation, or I would have jumped into this Tolkien conversation much sooner.
From my library;
"To the unfriendly who, not knowing them well, declared that Morgoth must have bred the Orcs from such a stock ( the Dru-folk, ancestors of Ghan-buri-Ghan, i.e., the 'Pukel-men' - early ugly humans) the Eldar answered: 'Doubtless Morgoth, since he can make no living thing, bred Orcs from various kinds of Men...' - but this was only one of several diverse speculations on the origin of the Orcs."
- Unfinished Tales, J. R. R. Tolkien, 1980, p. 385.
Man bad. Our current paradigm!
And; "...all those Quendi (original name of the Elves) who came into the hands of Melkor (aka, 'Morgoth' - Sauron's old boss)..., were put into prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. ...and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion... before the Beginning: so say the wise."
- The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien, 1977, p. 50.
This is the version Peter Jackson chose for his films.
Also; "Whence they (The Orcs) came, or what they were, the Elves knew not then, thinking them perhaps to be Avari (the Dark Elves, those that stayed behind in Middle Earth) who had become evil and savage in the wild; in which they guessed all too near, it is said."
- Silmarillion, p. 94.
That is to say, the Dark Elves "devolved" naturally, having rejected the call to grace.
It's not explicit, but Legolas' tribe in Mirkwood are likely Avari.
And finally; "The Orcs were first bred by the Dark Power of the North (Melkor) in the Eldar Days. It is said that they had no language of their own (significantly, especially not Elvish), but took what they could of other tongues."
- The Return of the King, J. R. R. Tolkien, 1956, Appendix F, p. 511.
Clearly Tolkien had not firmly decided the issue, as it was of minor importance to his literary adventure. The Lord of the Rings is about Hobbits after all. I myself decline to believe that the Noble Elves would just breed in captivity for Morgoth's evil purposes. Middle Earth is an imaginary creation with "Persons, Beasts, and Monsters" (LotR III, p. 525) and some other mythical species may have been raised up to become goblins by Morgoth's arts.
Nothing can really be deduced from Peter Jackson's excellent but heavily "adapted" (altered) movies. He, after all, has orcs being regurgitated out of the mud. Crikey, how that must've stunk!
From my library;
"To the unfriendly who, not knowing them well, declared that Morgoth must have bred the Orcs from such a stock ( the Dru-folk, ancestors of Ghan-buri-Ghan, i.e., the 'Pukel-men' - early ugly humans) the Eldar answered: 'Doubtless Morgoth, since he can make no living thing, bred Orcs from various kinds of Men...' - but this was only one of several diverse speculations on the origin of the Orcs."
- Unfinished Tales, J. R. R. Tolkien, 1980, p. 385.
Man bad. Our current paradigm!
And; "...all those Quendi (original name of the Elves) who came into the hands of Melkor (aka, 'Morgoth' - Sauron's old boss)..., were put into prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. ...and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion... before the Beginning: so say the wise."
- The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien, 1977, p. 50.
This is the version Peter Jackson chose for his films.
Also; "Whence they (The Orcs) came, or what they were, the Elves knew not then, thinking them perhaps to be Avari (the Dark Elves, those that stayed behind in Middle Earth) who had become evil and savage in the wild; in which they guessed all too near, it is said."
- Silmarillion, p. 94.
That is to say, the Dark Elves "devolved" naturally, having rejected the call to grace.
It's not explicit, but Legolas' tribe in Mirkwood are likely Avari.
And finally; "The Orcs were first bred by the Dark Power of the North (Melkor) in the Eldar Days. It is said that they had no language of their own (significantly, especially not Elvish), but took what they could of other tongues."
- The Return of the King, J. R. R. Tolkien, 1956, Appendix F, p. 511.
Clearly Tolkien had not firmly decided the issue, as it was of minor importance to his literary adventure. The Lord of the Rings is about Hobbits after all. I myself decline to believe that the Noble Elves would just breed in captivity for Morgoth's evil purposes. Middle Earth is an imaginary creation with "Persons, Beasts, and Monsters" (LotR III, p. 525) and some other mythical species may have been raised up to become goblins by Morgoth's arts.
Nothing can really be deduced from Peter Jackson's excellent but heavily "adapted" (altered) movies. He, after all, has orcs being regurgitated out of the mud. Crikey, how that must've stunk!
r16
not deity
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let me say , without any slurs on Tolkien and without any particular proof , Orcs have been described to be Turks by less than likeable Turkish special groups . ı personally catched a documentary where the guys were talking about Hay oruk , might be someting related to tribe or something ; Turkish Wikipedia defines Oruk only as an Arabian dish made in the South , can't offer proof against . And of course one of my first posts in CivFanatics was about the campaign in the movies being a match for the 1176 battles in Anatolia with "the hosts reversed"
and ı searched Oruk as Uruk was not returning anymeaning full finds . Yet on the very day ı found Uruk as family/clan in crosswords puzzle .
and ı searched Oruk as Uruk was not returning anymeaning full finds . Yet on the very day ı found Uruk as family/clan in crosswords puzzle .
Ajidica
High Quality Person
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Not quite. The Avari are the Elves who refused to go with Manwe (or was it a different Vala?) when they awoki in the far east. Legolas' people were the Silvan elves who had initialy follwed the Vala to the Undying lands but were terrified by the Misty Mountains and remained behind.
(Technicaly, Legolas isn't a Silvan elf. He is Sindarin. I believe his great-grandfather with King Thingol of Doriath.)
But on the rest, nice post!
