While We Wait: Writer's Block & Other Lame Excuses

[NinjaCow64]

I do not see much difference in IOT's and NES, and I supported the merge, but after some comments here and in the other thread, I am dead against it. IOT can survive without the mercy of bigots.

Also, Lucky and LoE, have you ever been in the IOT subforum and looked at the current IOT's? Please do so before you make stupid posts.

Good, you're one of two reasons we're largely opposed.

Now now let's not get personal guys.

 

[Symphony D.]

I would not be opposed to integration if it was possible to make it very clear from the outset what kind of player standards of behavior and expectations a given game was operating under, such that players would know what was expected of them on joining, and those expectations and standards could be enforced. As was determined a few months ago through much gnashing of teeth, they can't because that's "discriminatory," and the system is entirely reliant upon the good sense and discretion of the player interested in joining—which is clearly unreliable and highly fallible.

Removing GM control over their games makes it inadvisable to expand the playerbase uncontrollably since the GM has no say over whom they have to take. The policy of CFC on inclusion makes me uninterested in merger as a result either as a player or hypothetically as a GM. When the work of the many can be "ruined" by the one with no recourse, that's a pretty good incentive to reduce access and adopt an elitist position.

So defined, I am an elitist, and I have no compunction against being called such. I have little confidence in the IOT playerbase to show due discretion given my interaction with and observation of them to date. That's unfair, since I'm generalizing a community by the actions of a few individuals. But it's human nature and it is what it is. (That said, I feel the same about many NESers too, so take that for what you will.)

 

[NinjaCow64]

Well, not to be disrespectful to some, but many of the current mods just aren't as good as the old ones. They are new to modding and many people dislike them for personal reasons, hurting their games and the quality of them. While undoubtedly a few could become great GMs given time, many do not want to wait, and some (including myself) have abandoned joining even promising looking ones.

On the opposite side, many of the most respected IOTers are departing. The founder of IOTs is planning to retire after running the fifth of his landmark series; anther regular has just found a job in the army; a third has left for college and seems unlikely to return in any real capacity; a fourth has just quit all IOTs for personal reasons.

An example of the death is a leader of the community began a space IOT, which are always in demand. It has six players, barely enough to run.

I really think the situation has been highly exaggerated. I don't get where you get the idea that all the good mods are gone, Tani, Tyo, Son and Tails all have games up and running and they certainly aren't noobs.

Tani (the founder who is going to "retire") later dialed that back to might reduce his amount of time he invests on the forum next year, Mosher (the army guy) hasn't disappeared, Son has returned, Robert might return. The only person who seems to have left for good recently is Civ'ed and he wasn't THAT active to begin with.

IMO the Space IOT is a bad example. It is basically a stats-light story-based NES, something that is not seen or demanded often in IOT. IMO NESers would really enjoy it if you gave it a chance.

 

[christos200]

By the way, I am also moding a Ancient Times IOT, and there is plenty of room for new players. See my sig. The IOT's are not really dying.

 

[Masada]

Now now let's not get personal guys.

There was nothing personal about it. Simply put, christos200 knows he causes drama and expects us to just put up with it. Our contention is that we shouldn't have to and don't want to. Please keep in mind that this isn't a snipe at IOTers in the main because the vast majority of you are perfectly capable of engaging in a constructive manner with what's being offered here.

 

[christos200]

I am not causing drama. I just post my opinion. You do not like? Fine by me.

 

[Masada]

You called all of nes bigots, dude. That's drama.

 

[NinjaCow64]

Both of you should know that what you are doing right now is clearly against forum rules. Do you need a moderator to tell you so or are you going to relax?

 

[christos200]

I did not call all of them. Only a few ones (in fact only 3 persons) who make the merge of forums look like an Nazi invasion. In fact, I have no problem with most NESers, like terrance or arrow or Crezth and ChiefDesigner. Never said that all NESers are bigots.

 

[Angst]

~ I can be a bigot if you want me to be ~

 

[christos200]

See my above post. Masada may have misunderstand me. I do not say that all NESers are bigots, but only a small, but loud, minority.

 

[Symphony D.]

I also think spyrllino made an excellent point:

if we wanted to play IOTs, we'd come to your forum and play them. We know you exist, and most of us just don't want to play your games, because - with all due respect - we don't think they're much good

IOTs are known to NESers. NESes are known to IOTers. Overlap in players relative to community size is basically zero. NESers think IOTs are kind of crap, and IOTers think NESers are too serious. Sure, they broadly resemble one another, in the way that Farmville and survival Minecraft are broadly the same thing of building things up, or Sim City and The Sims are both broadly fiddly builder games. They even probably have similar demographics in users. But their overlap is basically zero.

So what happens if you put the two communities together under one roof? The overlap will still basically be zero, except for random Brownian motion whereby someone will see something interesting from the other side, and then they will experience culture shock when they go in because expectations are different.

To sum up my opposition:

1. Serious cultural differences do in fact exist between NES and IOT.
2. Due to CFC policy on inclusion, it is impossible for a GM to moderate behavior in a given game, which is a problem given (1).
3. Given IOT rules and continuing ambiguity therein (what does "unilaterally removing a player from a game" mean? Like when somebody is destroyed in an invasion?) I'm weary of a culture of rules-lawyering and running to the Mods/Admins over in-game actions which in turn can shut down or alter or delay games; fair or not, it's the impression I have of the IOT community.
4. Extant current mutual disinterest between IOT and NES indicates neither party would gain much from unification.
5. There is nothing stopping either party from doing something in the other subforum.
6. Streamlining for the sake of streamlining is not a reason to do anything.

 

[Tee Kay]

~ I can be a bigot if you want me to be ~

Personally as one of the original IOTers I'd prefer if the IOT forum is merged back into Forum Games.

 

[Tsoate]

Why not back to OT?

 

[christos200]

I believe that it would be better if NESers who were against the merge posted like Symphony D. This helps much more than "The Nazi invade!"

 

[NinjaCow64]

To sum up my opposition:

1. Serious cultural differences do in fact exist between NES and IOT.
2. Due to CFC policy on inclusion, it is impossible for a GM to moderate behavior in a given game, which is a problem given (1).
3. Given IOT rules and continuing ambiguity therein (what does "unilaterally removing a player from a game" mean? Like when somebody is destroyed in an invasion?) I'm weary of a culture of rules-lawyering and running to the Mods/Admins over in-game actions which in turn can shut down or alter or delay games; fair or not, it's the impression I have of the IOT community.
4. Extant current mutual disinterest between IOT and NES indicates neither party would gain much from unification.
5. There is nothing stopping either party from doing something in the other subforum.
6. Streamlining for the sake of streamlining is not a reason to do anything.

1. Eh.
2. I think that this exists of a problem independently of the merger. It's also something we can't really change. If we maybe had more mods in our subforum(s), then we could have faster response times to requests to remove player X.
3. Actually, unless I am misinformed, I am fairly sure that the IOT Rules are outdated and we use whatever you guys have, due to a clause that says something like "This covers NES and all other games." Regardless, rules-lawyering and running to the Mods for bad reasons has only been employed by very few members of the forums and they have had soiled their reputations from it nor did they get very far with Bird. And they have stopped as of late as well. I am not naming name but this is not an issue.
4. Maybe you're right, but I really think that there are games in IOT that NESers would really enjoy and vice-versa that one might miss due to people being reluctant to intermix. A merger would remove that artificial barrier.
5. True and I think we should start more cross pollination programs. I'd start one if I had more modding experience/more time.
6. You're right, but I don't think it is streamlining for the sake of streamlining.

 

[Gem Hound]

Here, despite my best efforts, people still insult me.

Try to deal in less absolutes, try to not call everyone barbarians as that has a tendency to make people not like you and also insta-war you, and try different and new things. The reason why I say this is that you have seemed the same in every NES except for Capto Iugulum, where it is modern instead of Ancient. In Capto, instead you have just brought about your own end across multiple nations.

 

[Tsoate]

Here, despite my best efforts, people still insult me.

An you have no idea why?

 

[christos200]

I like my nations to have the ideology of the Chinese Empire. I like the idea that all people living in my nations (in Ancient times) to be the civilized people who live Under the rule of the Heaven, the divine Emperor and that all those who do not are uncivilized Barbarians who should not have relations as equal with my nations. Does this make people angry? Maybe. It made the Mongols angry in RL, and they took over Beijing and forced the Ming to build the Great Wall in order to porotect themselves. It also made many Westerners angry. But I like that my nations have this ideology and have fun with this.

 

[Tee Kay]

I like my nations to have the ideology of the Chinese Empire. I like the idea that all people living in my nations (in Ancient times) to be the civilized people who live Under the rule of the Heaven, the divine Emperor and that all those who do not are uncivilized Barbarians who should not have relations as equal with my nations.

That's silly and only very partially historically-accurate.

Why not back to OT?

We got kicked out of OT.