While We Wait: Writer's Block & Other Lame Excuses

[Crezth]

I can't speak to your enjoyment in the hobby, North King, but what little cross-pollination there has been has been positive - the influx of new players, primarily IOTers and ex-IOTers, gave us a much-needed increase in playership at a time when it was lacking (thinking of somewhere in the 2010-2011 period for this). Furthermore, I see NESing as having a very real problem with inbreeding. For modern-era NESes we've been spinning the same Jason/das-style rules as we have done for years, and a fresh perspective couldn't hurt.

"They're similar" is not my argument: "they're identical" is my argument. You can already find IOTs in the NES forum (literally as well as figuratively, NESes which are otherwise indistinguishable in function from IOTs). As for the "differences," I haven't really seen it stated to my satisfaction how NESes and IOTs differ in an absolute, qualitative faction. I've heard it bandied about that NESers like writing stories and roleplaying, which is true in some instances and not true in others, and for which there seems to be insufficient evidence to make an absolute claim.

And even if it were true, it only describes a genre, not the entire aspect of NESing. NESing is most correctly understood as a venue, a type of media. SymphonyD, if you remember, once tried to make a science out of NESing - we have his efforts to thank for the terms "storyist," and "simulationist," among others. At the very least this illustrates a breadth to NESing that I think can't be adequately drawn at "just before IOTs."

Finally, we know that some IOTs demonstrate the traits that we exalt our own NESes for. There are IOTs that are primarily narrative-driven (this was how IOT got its start), which at the very least tells me there's a flexibility to the definition that makes it hard to justify a difference from NESing except in the finer details - at any rate, hardly enough to justify separate forums.

 

[ChiefDesigner]

I check both forums regularly and am on the lookout for a good IOT, but have joined one or two in the past couple of months. To me, that is telling as to their current quality (which, btw, has drastically declined).

Arrow, would you mind expanding on this point? What has changed to make IOTs unfun?

 

[Arrow Gamer]

Well, not to be disrespectful to some, but many of the current mods just aren't as good as the old ones. They are new to modding and many people dislike them for personal reasons, hurting their games and the quality of them. While undoubtedly a few could become great GMs given time, many do not want to wait, and some (including myself) have abandoned joining even promising looking ones.

On the opposite side, many of the most respected IOTers are departing. The founder of IOTs is planning to retire after running the fifth of his landmark series; anther regular has just found a job in the army; a third has left for college and seems unlikely to return in any real capacity; a fourth has just quit all IOTs for personal reasons.

An example of the death is a leader of the community began a space IOT, which are always in demand. It has six players, barely enough to run.

 

[Luckymoose]

For modern-era NESes we've been spinning the same Jason/das-style rules as we have done for years, and a fresh perspective couldn't hurt.

You're not paying close attention to the rules, are you? 25 Divisions Elite+5 is no longer a thing.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Well, not to be disrespectful to some, but many of the current mods just aren't as good as the old ones. They are new to modding and many people dislike them for personal reasons, hurting their games and the quality of them. While undoubtedly a few could become great GMs given time, many do not want to wait, and some (including myself) have abandoned joining even promising looking ones.

On the opposite side, many of the most respected IOTers are departing. The founder of IOTs is planning to retire after running the fifth of his landmark series; anther regular has just found a job in the army; a third has left for college and seems unlikely to return in any real capacity; a fourth has just quit all IOTs for personal reasons.

An example of the death is a leader of the community began a space IOT, which are always in demand. It has six players, barely enough to run.

Thanks for that incite insight. I think it may explain a lot about the motivation for doing something now.

 

[carmen510]

I think for IOTs, it may take some time, but the new mods will eventually improve to such a level as to match the old ones. If it is an influx of new players that is desired (for both NESes and IOTs), I think that transition from IOTs to NESes is much more common than visa versa, particularly with mods. I'm not sure if the more experienced NESing mods would be willing to create or join IOTs.

If it is the desire to reinvigorate the community that primarily drives this merger, it would be much better served if we reached out to the Stories & Tales forums, which include a much larger number of potential recruits that would be interested in roleplaying. I remember the time when we were connected to the Civ3 Stories & Tales board, and that facilitated influxes of new players (including myself); the move to the Civ4 Stories & Tales board garnered fewer players I believe. One issue I can note with recruitment is that the Civ5 Stories & Tales board seems to have much fewer "roleplaying" stories and many more Let's Plays, although there are also a good number of cooperative games that do fit with the spirit of NESing and IOTs.

 

[Lord of Elves]

The IOTers are attempting what is tantamount to a forum coup against the NES subforum. If they want to play in NESes they are more than welcome to, but this community does not want a merger, and I hope will resist one that would be forced on it. Stop playing the Vichy France to the IOTers' jackbooted invasion army.

 

[Crezth]

The IOTers are attempting what is tantamount to a forum coup against the NES subforum. If they want to play in NESes they are more than welcome to, but this community does not want a merger, and I hope will resist one that would be forced on it. Stop playing the Vichy France to the IOTers' jackbooted invasion army.

Comments like this are why nobody takes you seriously.

 

[Lord of Elves]

Comments like this are why nobody takes you seriously.

You are getting really needlessly personal about this petty forum politics nonsense.

 

[Crezth]

You are getting really needlessly personal about this petty forum politics nonsense.

Well, since merging forums is literally a coup, and that makes me Vichy France - collaborator to some pretty Bad Dudes - I have to play the part.

 

[Shadowbound]

Aaaaand we just compared IOTers to the Nazis. Congratulations team.

 

[Lord of Elves]

EDIT: Apparently it is Crezth's opinion that I overstepped the line by facetiously comparing him to the Vichy collaborators, for which I am actually genuinely sorry, etc.

 

[Crezth]

Aaaaand we just compared IOTers to the Nazis. Congratulations team.

Well a forum merger is literally tantamount to (TOTALLY DIFFERENT GUYS) jack-booted fascist invasion, so you have to admit the analogy is nothing short of flawlessly apt.

 

[talonschild]

Still, you were on a forum that would have instantly understood calling him Fulgencio Batista. WASTED OPPORTUNITY.

Suggestions for an apter comparison welcome.

 

[Terrance888]

Jackboots are very comfortable. Especially steel toed ones.

 

[Lord of Elves]

Well a forum merger is literally tantamount to (TOTALLY DIFFERENT GUYS) jack-booted fascist invasion, so you have to admit the analogy is nothing short of flawlessly apt.

Apparently my genuine regret that I actually annoyed Crezth by jokingly comparing him to the Vichy French is not enough to make up for the fact that the analogy was heavy-handed.

Yes, this is as bad as a thing which is moderately bad.

 

[Symphony D.]

Subscription.

This ironically has historically kept people from interacting due to inattention to the same capacity as wholly different forums, and if it's the "solution" it basically invalidates merging as an idea. It results in separate, loosely-to-negligibly-interacting cliques. A good example is the aforementioned FFH group, which for a (very) long time didn't integrate into the rest of the forum and didn't play anything else (and was criticized for so doing).

"They're essentially the same forum" is very convincing, as it's why there isn't 20 different forums for every category of Thing. But more importantly, from a community health standpoint, I think the community has a lot to gain from a shot in the arm consisting of new, vibrant, active players. We have a lot to learn from IOT and vice versa.

This strikes me as very similar to General McPeak's reasoning for dismembering Strategic Air Command in 1992. "Bombers? Those are shooters! Nukes? Those are shooters too! Put them in TAC! They're all the same! Fighter pilots can totally understand the needs of bomber pilots!" And it was a horrible mistake that resulted in loose nukes being flown across the country accidentally and resulted in the reactivation of Global Strike Command as SAC's successor in 2009. His arguments were basically the same.

"Air Combat Command will possess all the bomb dropping, bullet shooting, and support capabilities that we know must be integrated in modern air combat," McPeak said at the time. "In other words, it will itself be able to conduct independent, integrated air operations."

[...]

USAF leadership did not worry about preserving the nuclear culture of SAC because TAC had a nuclear mission, too. McPeak and countless other commanders in TAC had long experience with nuclear training, alert missions, and weapons handling. "I had 300 nuclear weapons at Upper Heyford [UK], and no one was better at keeping track of them than me," McPeak said.

What about the ICBMs? McPeak decided they, too, were "shooters" and ordered them to ACC, which was based at TAC’s old headquarters of Langley Air Force Base in Virginia.

"That was stupid and I undid that as quick as I could, without it looking like I spilled ketchup on my tie," he said later. "It made no sense to move the ICBMs to Langley." He chalked the ICBM decision up to being too eager to get the reorganization under way.

Well, NESers and IOTers have no differences at all, so putting them all under one roof will not result in any problems at all, and we should just do it without any nuanced admission or recognition of the fact that there are different cultures and norms or requirements and interests. BECAUSE REASONS!

I can't speak to your enjoyment in the hobby, North King, but what little cross-pollination there has been has been positive

I dispute this, given the two most widely known IOTers in NES are regarded in anything but a positive light due to their actions.

And even if it were true, it only describes a genre, not the entire aspect of NESing. NESing is most correctly understood as a venue, a type of media. SymphonyD, if you remember, once tried to make a science out of NESing - we have his efforts to thank for the terms "storyist," and "simulationist," among others. At the very least this illustrates a breadth to NESing that I think can't be adequately drawn at "just before IOTs."

I was generally of the opinion more mans is more better, true. I also did my best to get us our current forum position, largely in the interest of acquiring more mans. I have no problem with IOTers running IOTs in the NES subforum. I also have never been particularly enamored of the NES moniker and think it's kind of stupid. For all those reasons, it could make sense to merge into some "new" subforum (i.e., likely renaming this one and shuffling IOT posts into it).

But I have no interest in doing that officially because I'm not entirely convinced anymore that more mans is more better, in the same way that lots of updates are not always better. I also identified elements within the community by broad category in an effort to eliminate or marginalize ones I didn't personally like in an effort to restructure the community in a way that suited me, so calling back to me and my efforts is probably not the best way of making your point. Based on what's being said, it's their community that's dying, so if they want to come here, they can, and can integrate on their own time. There's no need for any actual reorganization, and certainly not a rush for one.

 

[christos200]

I do not see much difference in IOT's and NES, and I supported the merge, but after some comments here and in the other thread, I am dead against it. IOT can survive without the mercy of bigots.

Also, Lucky and LoE, have you ever been in the IOT subforum and looked at the current IOT's? Please do so before you make stupid posts.

 

[Masada]

Good, you're one of two reasons we're largely opposed.

 

[christos200]

And your post just proved my point of the elitism of some NESers, which makes the IOT subforums more open to everyone. When I first joined IOT and I was doing a bit horribly, no one insulted me. Here, despite my best efforts, people still insult me.