While We Wait: Writer's Block & Other Lame Excuses

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Back in my day, we all talked on AIM.

I didn't. :p You damnable elitists and your fancy, pish-posh "chats".

(I fully agree that the reason there aren't many NESes around nowadays has about as much to do with Symphony D. and Crezth's behaviour here as it does with the very existence of WWW, i.e. nothing at all.)
 
I didn't. :p You damnable elitists and your fancy, pish-posh "chats".

(I fully agree that the reason there aren't many NESes around nowadays has about as much to do with Symphony D. and Crezth's behaviour here as it does with the very existence of WWW, i.e. nothing at all.)

I disagree. Morale has effects on production. Bad actors bring others' morale down.
 
Hear that, Crezth? We're a morale problem to be solved now! Better leg it for the train tracks before they start doin' the 'ol locks'n'socks routine!
 
I tried to improve morale with my rice-based threads. I don't know what else they want from me.
 
This subforum should burned to the ground and the server rack it is hosted on salted so that nothing can grow in it ever again.

Ban this sick filth.
 
As I am the Guardian of the unseen, and the knower of the unknown, I've been visiting this forum since 2009 as a ghost collecting information - whether reading DaftNES or EoE. And since when I decided to participate regularly looks like I brought a legion of doom and everyone hates. Make love, not war!

I'm not a Deathbringer. :cry:
 
Hug reciprocated Shadowbound. :D

I'm enjoying a fairly productive weekend thusfar, I've been doing some infrastructure work on my NES in preparation for Epoch XIV.

Also, sorry if #nes has been giving anyone a bad experience. Ideally, I'd like it to be a place where all NESers can enjoy hanging out and chatting.
 
I disagree. Morale has effects on production. Bad actors bring others' morale down.

So what's so great bout the old Amon Savag? Do you do anything lately? I can't recall a moment where I'd consider you a morale boosting influence.

Moderator Action: This is the kind of post that will earn points from now on. No more flaming and direct personal attacks.
 
In fairness he is actually running a game now. It's me you should really be attacking. :p
 
Regarding Modern NESes,

No one really runs a modern NES, or near future NESes, and most of the more distant future NESes occur in post-cataclysmic narratives.


Firstly,
That made me wonder what role the vast complexity of a modern military apparatus had in scaring away moderators from this genre. And what options exist to moderate such a NES and somewhat model the intricacies of these vast and highly different militaries.

Here are a few ways one could do it,
1) Enumerate every ship, every division of aircraft, every division of an army branch, qualify and quantify their cyberwarfare divisions, enumerate every satellite. This would be a lot like what EQ did in his NES but with a hugely complex breadth of war machines (imagine 2030 USA for example)
2) Assign a simple number to each arm of the military: Army; 126, Navy: 103, Air: 134, Cyber: 21, Space: 6 and leave it at that.
3) Provide a description, without enumerating every vessel and all units. Perhaps include a number to provide quantification (or two, one for power and one for readiness, or something like that).


So... thoughts? Is this a major reason for the lack of modern NESes? And secondly, what is the best way to model large modern militaries?



Secondly,
How would one handle technology in a modern NES?
 
I think that modeling military is the easiest thing we can do. It is what most board games do, after all, albeit with varying levels of success/realism/fun. Even just listing "126 Infantry Divisions, 22 Panzer Divisions" etc... is sufficient for most purposes. If you want to go in depth, it's honestly somewhat trivial to keep detailed records of each nation's armed forces down to the division level. If you don't want to write that much, move up to corps. The reason it's easy is because adding more infantry does not increase the complexity of the system.

I think the real reason modern NESes don't exist, aside from the popular perception that modern times just aren't as "interesting" as past times (specifically people who think nukes have somehow ruined the "fun" of warfare), is because modeling economics is such a major pain in the ass. I know it's a conversation I had with EQ a lot, and more recently with Masada, that while for pre-20th century IC or EP works reasonably well as an aggregate spending capabilities stat, the more realistic you want to go, the more you have to account for, and failing to do so obliterates verisimilitude. Furthermore, even in a 19th century situation, how do you realistically differentiate between industrial powers, merchant economies, and vast volume economies (say the UK, Netherlands, and Qing China respectively)? Simply using IC is not satisfactory at representing the ability of a country to produce, much less the ability of a government to... govern.

That having been said, it still works OK and in fact I think IC is the best we can do because you can add more non-IC IC stats - like in SysNES2, there was also a science stat, a talented workforce stat, etc. which were all hard integers, and I think it worked well from a playing perspective but it was obviously not very realistic - but the more modern you go, the less you can get away with. There's no excuse not to try to model GDP and trade balance and in fact you kind of have to because the notion of IC simply fails to encapsulate enough phenomena when you apply it to a modern, globalized economy.

And then the real killer is... okay, we can model stuff produced, we can model different productive sectors of an economy, and with enough creativity and BS we can model supply and demand, but... the more you add to the system, the more complex it gets. Two interacting economies behave very differently from an economy in a "vacuum," especially when governments start changing the rules and doing their own stuff. Bozhe moy, it's too much, I say! And now you want 200 interacting economies in the modern day? Sheezus.

Source: Listening to Masada-sama's lectures on economics and trying to incorporate it into a NES and failing very badly.
 
Coming soon: ShadowNES: Wages of the Wicked. Players take on the role of managers of a country's central bank as their leader is replaced with an insane totalitarian dictator, and attempt to manage the country's economy through random invasions, embargoes, impositions of total war, and the breakdown of international trade that accompanies any NES.
 
I think the biggest problem with Present Day Plus games is the same problem afflicting other media. Have you ever noticed that B-Movies tend to be about things like sci-fi, fantasy, and horror—things that would nominally require the biggest budgets and the most effort and expertise to pull off? (Low budget drama is "Indie," isn't that curious?) Likewise, how many books or novellas or fan fictions are there out there that are just mundane slice of life stories? For some reason* inexperienced people like to go for the real heavy hitters first. And most of the time it flops, precisely because they're inexperienced. If you can get past that, the rest is mostly logistics, but then you run into the effortwall. With very few exceptions, almost everybody who floats the idea of doing PDP game is either 1. somebody I've never heard of before, 2. really bad at running things, or 3. fails to deliver a product, and this has been the case going back almost 10 years now.

* It's because by and large people are (1) impatient at learning the basics, (2) think they know better, and (3) on some level probably hope their "cool ideas" (that are likely neither all that cool or new at all) will make up for their technical deficiencies or actual unfamiliarity with the material, because hey, it's all made up and everything's fair game, right? Right?

So... thoughts? Is [the vast complexity of a modern military apparatus] a major reason for the lack of modern NESes?
No.

I think the real reason modern NESes don't exist [...] is because modeling economics is such a major pain in the ass.
Yes.

Here are a few ways one could do it,
1) Enumerate every ship, every division of aircraft, every division of an army branch, qualify and quantify their cyberwarfare divisions, enumerate every satellite. This would be a lot like what EQ did in his NES but with a hugely complex breadth of war machines (imagine 2030 USA for example)
2) Assign a simple number to each arm of the military: Army; 126, Navy: 103, Air: 134, Cyber: 21, Space: 6 and leave it at that.
3) Provide a description, without enumerating every vessel and all units. Perhaps include a number to provide quantification (or two, one for power and one for readiness, or something like that).
(1) is simple provided enough automation and in fact doesn't go far enough, but nobody is actually interested in doing the legwork necessary, even though all the real work has already been done. (2) is overly simplistic and serves nobody's interests; unitless numbers are dumb and lead to Dragonball Z. (3) is what should probably actually be happening in practice given the average effort level (~0).

And secondly, what is the best way to model large modern militaries?
All this has happened before, and all this will happen again.
 
GoobNES enumerated every last scrap of arsenal included and manpower to the single digit. I found it fun. But that was in far less rigorous times.
 
I think over-complexity tends to make a NES less stable rather than more. All these tiny details can be saved for the story parts, the rules should remain simplified, not too simple to allow crazyness, but not too overreaching as to gobble the NES in rules.
 
GoobNES enumerated every last scrap of arsenal included and manpower to the single digit. I found it fun. But that was in far less rigorous times.
The fact I had to tell Goober how antimatter worked after he'd already handed Stormbringer huge quantities of it because he'd thrown lots of money at it is pretty emblematic of exactly the kind of problem I'm talking about.
 
So what's so great bout the old Amon Savag? Do you do anything lately? I can't recall a moment where I'd consider you a morale boosting influence.

Moderator Action: This is the kind of post that will earn points from now on. No more flaming and direct personal attacks.

Creating enjoyable NESes is a morale boosting influence, I'd imagine. Maybe not to trolls, but without NESes the NESing community would cease to be. Every time I have brought myself back into the community I have contributed meaningfully by running my own NES. Not just spammed the WWW thread like some others.

If moving this thread to the Off-Topic section would decrease the amount of attention the NESing community gives to trolls that do not actually contribute while they complain and troll in this thread, I cannot see a downside.
 
The fact I had to tell Goober how antimatter worked after he'd already handed Stormbringer huge quantities of it because he'd thrown lots of money at it is pretty emblematic of exactly the kind of problem I'm talking about.

Yeah, but that was nine years ago and a period of one silly decision after another. The whole premise of the NES was ridiculous but all the dumb and unrealistic projects were somehow in tone of the game and our relative ages back then. I doubt we'd see something of the like today. Still I liked the military accounting of that game. (anti-matter and NBC loaded satellites not included)
 
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