Who wants to write a sonnet?

[Gori the Grey]

All right, this will do.

We're not going to mention the guy on the internet yet. We will as part of the presentation of the sonnet. But as to wanting Sarah to have one, that has to be from you, that has to be authentic. I'm just offering to help.

By the way, you have added to my formulation, with the "and you probably don't want one" bit. You can put that in the opening, so your sentiment would now run

I don't know if you've ever received a sonnet, and I don't know if you'd even like one, but I'd like you to have [this] one.

Does that feel like a thought you can communicate to her through the sonnet?

 

[Borachio]

What? In the final two lines? Or in the opening two, I suppose. Yes. Why not. I can't think how I might spin it out for 14 lines, though.

Nor do I have any clue how that might be expressible in a rhyming couplet, in iambic pentameter, without being incredibly lame. Hopefully you do.

 

[Gori the Grey]

No, through the entirety of the sonnet. Remember, the core meaning of Sonnet 18 is no more elaborate: "You are more lovely than a summer's day; moreover, your loveliness will endure forever through my sonnet." Shakespeare found a way to spin that sentiment out through 14 lines, and you're ready to move on to the spinning-out stage of the process as well, now. Well, almost ready.

To anyone who might be watching along (and considering whether to join in), Borachio has completed the first stage of the process: he has developed a core idea he can express through the sonnet. Any of you who would like to play along, this is all you need to get started: one sentence that expresses the gist of what you want to communicate. It may well come to you more quickly, moreover, because in the B-man's case we had some RL difficulties to muddle through.

We're going to linger just a little while longer at this stage, for me to point out something about the sentiment Borachio has developed, and that is that it has a logical structure. You may never have received a sonnet before; moreover, you may not even want to. But I would like you to have one.

These logical turning points will map onto the quatrains of the sonnet Borachio writes. Consider some Shakespeare sonnets.

When to the sessions of sweet silent thought. Its logical structure is When, then, then, but. And those logical words (some people know them as transitional expressions) come at the beginning of the three quatrains and the couplet.

When in disgrace with fortune and men's eyes. Its logical structure is When, then, for. And those words appear at the start of the first quatrain, the third, and the couplet.

Among other things, a sonnet is a movement of thought. And that will guide our composition.

So, Borachio, you'll probably spend the first quatrain saying "I don't know whether you've received a sonnet before" and your second quatrain saying "And I don't even know if you'd like to." Then at line 9, you'll start saying "But I'd like you to have one." And we'll think of some pithy way of summing things up for the couplet.

But don't get locked into that structure yet, because there's two more things I'd like to do before we start writing individual lines. First, I want you to agree to remain flexible about this overall logic of your sonnet. There can be more than one way of laying out the logic. One could, for example, convey roughly the same sentiment in reverse order: I'd like you to have a sonnet, even if you've never received one before, and even if you don't really want one. That's not the best logic in B's case. But I just want it noted that these logical building-blocks can be reordered.

Second, there's a cool possibility for an enrichment of your core sentiment, but I can't tell you what it is, because it would fall in the category of things I won't do for you. But if you can think of it yourself, then I can add it to the mix.

If I tell you that sonnets are often balanced at that point, near the center, with the first eight lines and the last six in a kind of rough conceptual balance with one another, does that make you think of one more notion you might add to your gist sentence? Is there something that could correspond, in the second half of the sonnet, to the idea, in the first half of the sonnet, that she has likely never received a sonnet before? Can you see what I'm driving at?

 

[Borachio]

That's a puzzle.

Dear me, this is complex.

(It turns out, it seems from recent non-events - it looks like my letter has sunk me - that this is going to be a futile exercise anyway. But never
mind. Most of my life has been futile.)

The only thing that springs (in the same way treacle can be said to "spring") to my mind to balance that is that I've never sent one.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Or written one. Yeah, that's what I was driving at.

So your gist sentence could run: I don't know if you've ever received a sonnet before and you may not even want to. Well I've never written one, but I would like you to have [this] one.

Do you like the symmetry of that?

 

[Borachio]

Yes, indeed, that has a pleasing symmetry to it.

So, that's the three quatrains and the final couplet? In that order?

 

[Gori the Grey]

I'm glad you like the symmetry because this sentiment makes for a freakin' awesome conceit for your sonnet.

Yes, but with the reservation mentioned above, that, as you write, you will remain flexible about this overall logic. Sometimes as a sonnet develops, one has to make adjustments at that level, based on how some earlier thing got phrased. Moreover, in your case, we might want the "but I want you to have one" to be more than just the couplet, because it could be your space for saying why you want her to have one (i.e. the things you like about her).

We'll actually get started writing soon. Gotta run just now, but when I next post it will be to prompt you to start writing your first verse.

EDIT: Ok, I'm back. So, yes, it's time to launch into the actual writing of your sonnet, Borachio. You're going to start expressing the sentiment "I don't know whether you've ever received a sonnet or not," but 1) you're going to take four lines of verse to say that and 2) you're going to say it in iambic pentameter, with lines rhymed alternately. This is difficult, and as I've hinted, you may well try a dozen lines for every one that succeeds. You'll get the hang of it the more you do it. Lines 11 & 12 will come more easily than lines 1 and 2. Say the phrase di-DUM di-DUM di-DUM di-DUM di-DUM. (Just to get the beat in your ear). Then try to say some phrasing of "I don't know whether you've ever received a sonnet or not" that fits that rhythmic pattern. Give me your best effort and I'll give you some feedback and direction.

EDIT #2 (Oct 1): Hey, Borachio, you're not either 1) trying to do the whole thing on your own (I'm happy to help line-by-line, and the meter might be the place where I can be of the most help) or 2) abandoning this project when you vowed you were in it for the long haul? Give me a stab at a line of iambic pentameter. I've got a Christmas deadline!

EDIT #3 (Oct 2): Well, it looks as though you've lost interest, Borachio. So the answer to my thread title is "no one."

 

[Borachio]

Well, look at that!

This is what happens when you simply put edits in.

In fact, I thought you'd forgotten all about it.

But then I decided to check up on it again.

Still, I don't know whether I can actually do this, anyway. I'll see what I can come up with in the next 24 hours or so. Probably nothing worthwhile, though.

 

[Gori the Grey]

I think it's in bad form to bump my own threads by posting twice in a row.

But I'm glad we're back to this. Do what you can. It's on the line-by-line level that I can perhaps be most useful. Progress may be slow at the start, but it will pick up.

 

[jackelgull]

Have more faith in yourself!

Here is my first two lines- Was there ever a curse darker than gold?
Or a blessing that mankind holds more dear?

Now I just need to think of eight more lines with the proper rhyme scheme.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Hey, jackelgull's in, too. Yea!

But you sound like you're not looking for terribly much input from me ("I just need to").

I'll give you this much input, though: you need 12 more lines!

I'll also say this. You've chosen good line-ending words. Gold and dear both rhyme with lots of other words, so, as you create your next two lines, you'll have more possibilities for what you can say.

So now, for the next line: di-DUM di-DUM di-DUM di-DUM di-OLD.

Would you care to share what you want your entire sonnet to be about? In the vein of how I've worked with Borachio, working out his "core sentiment" before we even got started writing lines?

 

[jackelgull]

Hey, jackelgull's in, too. Yea!

But you sound like you're not looking for terribly much input from me ("I just need to").

I'll give you this much input, though: you need 12 more lines!

I'll also say this. You've chosen good line-ending words. Gold and dear both rhyme with lots of other words, so, as you create your next two lines, you'll have more possibilities for what you can say.

So now, for the next line: di-DUM di-DUM di-DUM di-DUM di-OLD.

Would you care to share what you want your entire sonnet to be about? In the vein of how I've worked with Borachio, working out his "core sentiment" before we even got started writing lines?

Does it really sound like I am not looking for much input? Then I must be worse at asking for advice then I realize. Anyway, that is my problem- I am not sure. Right now I am stuck between two ideas- do I want this to be the opening narration of a story (like a narrator reminiscing on his experiences with gold) or a poem on the power of gold/wealth in general? Presumably the more personal poem is the more powerful so I might be leaning to a narrator categorizing his experiences with gold and what his search for wealth has lead him to, but I am not sure if it is a particularly strong idea.

 

[Gori the Grey]

It may not be that you're bad at asking for help, jackal. It may be that I'm determined not to provide more assistance than any sonneteer desires. So now that I know that your receptive to some direction . . .

The reason I had B go through the elaborate process of working out the gist of what he wants to communicate in the sonnet as a whole is that doing so helps immensely at the level of writing individual lines. When writing a sonnet, one feels constrained in what one can say by the meter and the rhyme. If one also doesn't quite know what one wants to say, that can make for paralysis.

Either of your two options strike me as viable. And the one you seem to favor could make for a powerful sonnet. I would just encourage you to determine which you favor before trying to go any further with the writing.

One note about the meter of your opening line. There are a lot of variations from di-DUM di-DUM di-DUM di-DUM di-DUM that are permissible. But one thing one wants to shy away from is anything that introduces a triple rhythm. EV-er-a, DARK-er than.

Meter is the hardest part, and certain people may want to bother with it less than others, because it's the meter being off that demands the most recastings of lines. Your lines have ten syllables, so they're right on that front. The alternation of stresses is its own challenge. If you like these lines as they are, I won't pester you further. If you're open to working more on the meter, there's a nudge or two I could provide.

 

[jackelgull]

Here's a tale from when I was young and bold/ Escaping Spain where my prospects were drear.

These are the next two lines I have thought of. I have the general outline of my narrative, it is going to be about a Spanish explorer to the new world. In my next ten lines I'll need info on who my explorer goes with, who they meet, the exchange that happens, where gold fits into it and why it was both a blessing and a curse on this situation. I'll see if I can't come back to you in a few days with a satisfactory poem with that.

As for the meter- I want to see if I can write a Shakespearean sonnet at all without worrying about meter, after I accomplish that I will go back to see if I can't follow the stressed unstressed pattern. I have no clue though, which syllables in the English language are stressed and unstressed.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Coming along nicely.

As for stressed and unstressed. Two syllable words have a standard pattern of accentuation that's built into the pronunciation of the word: BLESSing, arRANGE. One syllable words go by part of speech: nouns, main verbs, adjectives and adverbs tend to get a stress. Articles, prepositions, pronouns, the coordinating conjunctions, auxiliary verbs and forms of the verb to be tend to be unstressed. There's a handful of monosyllables that can easily go either way. Words of three or more syllables often have a secondary accent.

So in your lines "was YOUNG and BOLD" and "esCAPing SPAIN" are phrases that are in the right meter.

Yes, by all means, we can add meter in on a second effort.

As you contemplate the direction of your poem, think about some summing-up comment your Spanish adventurer could make. The closing couplet usually ends with something that clinch the overall thought of the poem.

 

[Borachio]

Here's a truly dreadful first attempt!

Did you ever get a poem, or two;
For a special occasion, maybe, or not?
So did no one think to send one to you?
I don't have a clue, did you, or what?

No, no, don't laugh, please! It took me all of five minutes.

 

[jackelgull]

The first two lines seem okay, you might want to revise the next two lines, at least from my perspective. Gori may tell you differently.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Did you ever get a poem, or two;
For a special occasion, maybe, or not?
So did no one think to send one to you?
I don't have a clue, did you, or what?

I didn't know you'd try a whole quatrain at a go. I thought you'd try a single line, and I'd get a chance to nudge you on the content of your first quatrain.

I'm not laughing. Good. You're underway.

Notice that what I suggested might happen has already started to. Your gist sentence started "I don't know whether you've received a sonnet or not" (assertion, if tentative). You've gone with the interrogative "Did you . . ." It's not a big change, but it's the kind of alteration that sometimes occurs once the rubber hits the road.

In your case, it's for RL reasons that I'm going to encourage you to revise. One of the (from my view) problems with your ill-fated letter was that it badgered Sarah with questions. Especially the last line of this picks up that same tone. "did you, or what?" makes these questions almost sound aggressive! We don't want that.

Moreover, there's stuff we do want that isn't in here. Earlier, you told me the reasons you suspect she may not have received a sonnet, in the form of endearing character traits about her that might have prevented it. I want some of those to make an appearance. And they will come in better under "You may not ever have" than under "have you."

You'll also be getting rid of some of what, here, is padding. The "or two." If she's never received one, she's never received two. And the whole fourth line, which just reiterates. Now, one does reiterate in sonnets, but you have the opportunity (indirectly) to start saying the kinds of things you like about her.

Try again, in statement mode rather than interrogative, and including some of the reasons she may never have received a sonnet.

Oh, by the way, what's another reason, aside from any characteristics of hers, that she may never have received a sonnet?

 

[Borachio]

I don't know for sure what the reason is. It may be because she's not (or wasn't, this "relationship" of mine is firmly in the past now, but we won't let that stop us) the type of person whose interests, or education even, would have brought her into contact with such a thing. Or just because she was a deeply practical no nonsense kind of person.

But I could be mistaken. People have often surprised me in the past.

What reasons might you suppose would be applicable? Do you have something in mind, coach?

By the way, my use of the idiom "or what?" might come across to you as aggressive, but really isn't among a certain class of people of my acquaintance. It's just a forthright way of expressing oneself, imo. Still, I can easily abandon it. It's not a big deal to me.

Would you prefer an Elizabethan pastiche? (Might be difficult!)

 

[Gori the Grey]

I wondered if "or what?" might have a different resonance for Brits. For Americans it's almost hostile. It turns the previous question into a rhetorical question: are you an idiot, or what? (with no other answer than yes expected, i.e. you're an idiot). But even if it has a different meaning for you, let's try getting you out of the interrogative mode.

The other potential reason for her not having received a sonnet before that I had in mind is simply that no one tends to get sonnets any more, because so few people write them.

Anyway, give me a new first quatrain that weaves into the assertion that "perhaps you've never received a sonnet before" some of the possible reasons for that, giving yourself the opportunity, indirectly, to list some of the qualities that you admire in her. Things like her forthrightness, etc. that you mentioned before, but all of them phrased a tiny bit positively (forthright is a good example).