Who wants to write a sonnet?
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Gori the Grey
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You have the makings of a sonneteer!
Especially in the early going, the trick is to be willing to recast portions of lines, lines, whole quatrains.
Other observations:
1) What you have here rushes the overall logic of the sonnet. Remember, it's:
Q1: I don't know whether you've ever received a sonnet or not
Q2: And perhaps you don't even want one
Q3: Well, (just as you've never received one) I've never written one
C: But I do want you to have one.
So you don't start talking about yourself as a sonneteer until line 8.
2) It's good to have dummy-syllables for parts you haven't written yet, but use syllables that match the meter. Instead of SOMEthing SOMEthing SOMEthing, go with "and MORE and MORE and MORE." That way, when you go to fill in that part, your dummy syllables will actually help you catch the rhythm that you need for that stretch.
3) You will have to decide whether you want to go with mock-Elizabethan diction ('tis) or whether you want to write natural-sounding contemporary English.
4) On an earlier point: Don't worry about the futility of the RL situation. Writing the sonnet will itself be the way of dealing with that futility. Remember Burton: "I write of melancholy by being busy to avoid melancholy."
Gori the Grey
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Yes, I've read it. But it was years ago, so it's well past time I read it again.
Mise
isle of lucy
Okay, so, this is where I've got to:
Theme:
It's okay to feel sad sometimes
Four lines for each of the following three parts:
- there is are lots of reasons to feel sad
- but those are universal to the human condition: no life is free from sadness
- and accepting the universality of unhappiness makes us better people: more compassionate, forgiving, and understanding of the negative behaviour of others
The things I never did or never said,
The times I felt as though no one could care,
The space between ideals revealed in bed,
And actions, how they fall so short and bare.
When people tell you that you should just grin,
And play the fool who fools themself the more,
They miss the point of life and all its whims,
A life without risk of sadness? What a bore...
Some deal with this in ways that make no sense;
How else are we to act when faced with this?
We're dying animals, in our defence;
Forgive me if I stare into the abyss.
Perspective got from melancholy sows;
Forgiveness, patience, understanding grows.
I feel like this is a worthwhile theme, and the general point that I'm making (i.e. the 3 points above) are well enough constructed I think. It's just that the sonnet itself is bland and instantly forgettable... A perfect example of the gap between ambitions and ability to execute them...
Theme:
It's okay to feel sad sometimes
Four lines for each of the following three parts:
- there is are lots of reasons to feel sad
- but those are universal to the human condition: no life is free from sadness
- and accepting the universality of unhappiness makes us better people: more compassionate, forgiving, and understanding of the negative behaviour of others
The things I never did or never said,
The times I felt as though no one could care,
The space between ideals revealed in bed,
And actions, how they fall so short and bare.
When people tell you that you should just grin,
And play the fool who fools themself the more,
They miss the point of life and all its whims,
A life without risk of sadness? What a bore...
Some deal with this in ways that make no sense;
How else are we to act when faced with this?
We're dying animals, in our defence;
Forgive me if I stare into the abyss.
Perspective got from melancholy sows;
Forgiveness, patience, understanding grows.
I feel like this is a worthwhile theme, and the general point that I'm making (i.e. the 3 points above) are well enough constructed I think. It's just that the sonnet itself is bland and instantly forgettable... A perfect example of the gap between ambitions and ability to execute them...
Gori the Grey
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That's actually a very accomplished sonnet, Mise, and no small portion of what I thought I might contribute you've achieved on your own: you've got the meter, rhymes largely without a sense of strain, a conversational and natural syntax. It does do what I've been proposing a sonnet should do: develop a thought gradually but steadily over the entirety of the poem.
Nicely done.
If it doesn't yet represent what you're ambitious to achieve, would you like to take another step? It would take the form not of revising this sonnet, exactly, but of writing a second sonnet on the same theme (though there might be one thing we could do by way of revising this sonnet, and it might be a meaningful exercise). I know what you're seeing in it when you call it bland and forgettable. It's not. But I know why you're saying that. And there's a second kind of effort that can address that, if you're interested in continuing with the process.
But right out of the gate, you've set a pretty high standard!
Nicely done.
If it doesn't yet represent what you're ambitious to achieve, would you like to take another step? It would take the form not of revising this sonnet, exactly, but of writing a second sonnet on the same theme (though there might be one thing we could do by way of revising this sonnet, and it might be a meaningful exercise). I know what you're seeing in it when you call it bland and forgettable. It's not. But I know why you're saying that. And there's a second kind of effort that can address that, if you're interested in continuing with the process.
But right out of the gate, you've set a pretty high standard!
Mise
isle of lucy
Thanks for the words of encouragement! Yes, I think writing a second sonnet would be the best way forward and I'm definitely open to your input on how I can do that without making it sound so bland. Right now, it doesn't feel like there's enough, you know, "poetry" in it. There aren't any of the sort of pretty imageries that Shakespeare's Sonnet 18 has in abundance, and thus none of the allure. Reading Sonnet 18, I feel a picture forming in my head of a summer's day -- and all it's apparently many flaws. In my sonnet, I feel like I'm just stating things as I would on CFC (or IRL, at work for example): here is a bunch of facts, here is another bunch of facts that puts the previous facts into a broader context, and here is the key takeaway from all of this. It's basically an argument that rhymes!
WHAT DO?!
WHAT DO?!
Gori the Grey
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Well, you've pinpointed the very thing you could do differently in a second attempt at the sonnet's theme. Good poems generally involve an interplay between the general and the specific, the abstract and the concrete.
So think what some of those "things" are. Be a little more specific about the "ideals" and "actions." Ditto "ways." You won't lose the force of the abstraction if you actually give an example in cases like that. But you'll gain the force of an image.
Out of those "darling buds" and that "gold complexion," readers conjure an image of a summer's day, more than from the phrase "summer's day" actually.
And notice the importance of verbs in conveying a picture. You'd think nouns and adjectives, right? No, it's precise verbs that paint a picture: shake, shines, declines, fade, lose, brag.
So think what some of those "things" are. Be a little more specific about the "ideals" and "actions." Ditto "ways." You won't lose the force of the abstraction if you actually give an example in cases like that. But you'll gain the force of an image.
Out of those "darling buds" and that "gold complexion," readers conjure an image of a summer's day, more than from the phrase "summer's day" actually.
And notice the importance of verbs in conveying a picture. You'd think nouns and adjectives, right? No, it's precise verbs that paint a picture: shake, shines, declines, fade, lose, brag.
Gori the Grey
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I entered into this project willing to work line by line. You don't have to try to get a whole quatrain. Just get started saying the material that makes up your first quatrain (I don't know whether you've ever received a sonnet).
Give me one line.
Give me one line.
Borachio
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Don't know/ if you've/ got or/ not a/ sonnet.
See, that doesn't work because of the mismatch of the stress on the third and fourth feet. And i'm not too sure about the other three feet either.
(Heheheh, I can't seem to get away from "or not" whatever I do, can I?)
See, that doesn't work because of the mismatch of the stress on the third and fourth feet. And i'm not too sure about the other three feet either.
(Heheheh, I can't seem to get away from "or not" whatever I do, can I?)
Gori the Grey
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You know a little about scansion, and you've sized it up perfectly. The iambic pentameter line can tolerate a trochee almost anywhere (and one in the first foot is positively common). But it can't really tolerate two in a row (let alone three), so your hunch that that line doesn't work, metrically, is right.
Yes, you can't seem to get away from "or not." But the sonnet doesn't want to let you use that phrase. This will happen when one writes a sonnet. The sonnet won't let one use one's go-to verbal formulation. It will force one to some other phrasing. Generally, when one finds your way to that other phrasing, one is happy; one turns out to like it better than the phrase one was trying to use. You're not there yet, because you haven't devised an alternative yet. But mark my prediction.
You know the line needn't correspond to a grammatical unit. It can be enjambed, with the sense flowing over into the next line. Maybe "or not" is a function of your trying to get a grammatically complete sentence to correspond to a line of verse. Give yourself a little freedom on that front and see what happens.
For example. Notice that "a SONnet" fits better metrically at the beginning of a line.
Or flip the thought itself around. Instead of "I don't know whether you've ever received a sonnet, since you have the following qualities" say, "Because you're x and y and z, perhaps you've never received a sonnet." "Someone as a or b or c as you may never have received a sonnet." I wan't those qualities of her to be the main thing that comes through in the opening quatrain in any case. This is your opportunity to pay her a series of indirect compliments.
I want you to be getting back to this stuff:
(probably not the fascist part)
and this:
You've actually written your sonnet. You just need to versify it. (Which is no small matter, admittedly.)
Yes, you can't seem to get away from "or not." But the sonnet doesn't want to let you use that phrase. This will happen when one writes a sonnet. The sonnet won't let one use one's go-to verbal formulation. It will force one to some other phrasing. Generally, when one finds your way to that other phrasing, one is happy; one turns out to like it better than the phrase one was trying to use. You're not there yet, because you haven't devised an alternative yet. But mark my prediction.
You know the line needn't correspond to a grammatical unit. It can be enjambed, with the sense flowing over into the next line. Maybe "or not" is a function of your trying to get a grammatically complete sentence to correspond to a line of verse. Give yourself a little freedom on that front and see what happens.
For example. Notice that "a SONnet" fits better metrically at the beginning of a line.
Or flip the thought itself around. Instead of "I don't know whether you've ever received a sonnet, since you have the following qualities" say, "Because you're x and y and z, perhaps you've never received a sonnet." "Someone as a or b or c as you may never have received a sonnet." I wan't those qualities of her to be the main thing that comes through in the opening quatrain in any case. This is your opportunity to pay her a series of indirect compliments.
I want you to be getting back to this stuff:
(probably not the fascist part)
and this:
You've actually written your sonnet. You just need to versify it. (Which is no small matter, admittedly.)
Borachio
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Hmm. This is all good and interesting advice, Mr Grey.
I shall think about it for a couple of days, but, I fear, my heart's not really in this project. I'm probably finding myself face to face with my own stupidity too intensely for comfort at the moment - even for me! (Though perhaps I should incorporate that feeling into it too?)
Which is a big shame. Since you've devoted time to this. Yet maybe much of it will still be applicable to someone else.
I shall think about it for a couple of days, but, I fear, my heart's not really in this project. I'm probably finding myself face to face with my own stupidity too intensely for comfort at the moment - even for me! (Though perhaps I should incorporate that feeling into it too?)
Which is a big shame. Since you've devoted time to this. Yet maybe much of it will still be applicable to someone else.
Mise
isle of lucy
I'm certainly finding it useful!
Gori the Grey
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Would you like to write on a different topic, Borachio?
I proposed this thread just because you'd said several times that you envied people who could write sonnets, and that you'd several times yourself tried to without success. It was mere coincidence that you had Sarah as a topic for a sonnet at the time that I started the thread. You're by no means locked into that subject matter, if it's painful to you.
What else might you write about, if you just wanted the exercise of writing a sonnet (and the feeling of accomplishment that comes from having done so)?
Maybe it's time for me to start writing my sonnet, if only to dramatize that it can be on any subject whatsoever. I want to write a sonnet about CFC:OT. I want to write about the battles we have here, on topics pertaining to women, between those who identify as feminists and those who are quick to point out places where they feel feminism has been hypercorrective. The former call the latter MRAs, and the latter call the former SJWs, and I'm amused by the mutual derision and the dust-ups. I'm also amused that each side has a derogatory term for the other that takes the form of a three letter acronym.
So I’m imagining a sonnet that ends with the witticism: “These SJWs v. MRAs.” Count it up; it’s ten-syllables! The only part of it that has an inherent stress pattern is the word double-u, but those three syllables impose their rhythm on the entire remainder of the line so that it can read as iambic pentameter: These S J Double U v. M R A. But it will barely look like a line of verse. That’s the fun of it for me. (Sonneteer in-joke.)
So anyway, my intended audience is someone who doesn’t know about CFC, so the bulk of the sonnet will just be describing the place, then how often we have threads pitting so-called “social justice warriors” against so-called “men’s rights activists,” then saying that I’m amused to watch the battles.
@Mise. Thanks. Are you at work on the second version of your sonnet?
I proposed this thread just because you'd said several times that you envied people who could write sonnets, and that you'd several times yourself tried to without success. It was mere coincidence that you had Sarah as a topic for a sonnet at the time that I started the thread. You're by no means locked into that subject matter, if it's painful to you.
What else might you write about, if you just wanted the exercise of writing a sonnet (and the feeling of accomplishment that comes from having done so)?
Maybe it's time for me to start writing my sonnet, if only to dramatize that it can be on any subject whatsoever. I want to write a sonnet about CFC:OT. I want to write about the battles we have here, on topics pertaining to women, between those who identify as feminists and those who are quick to point out places where they feel feminism has been hypercorrective. The former call the latter MRAs, and the latter call the former SJWs, and I'm amused by the mutual derision and the dust-ups. I'm also amused that each side has a derogatory term for the other that takes the form of a three letter acronym.
So I’m imagining a sonnet that ends with the witticism: “These SJWs v. MRAs.” Count it up; it’s ten-syllables! The only part of it that has an inherent stress pattern is the word double-u, but those three syllables impose their rhythm on the entire remainder of the line so that it can read as iambic pentameter: These S J Double U v. M R A. But it will barely look like a line of verse. That’s the fun of it for me. (Sonneteer in-joke.)
So anyway, my intended audience is someone who doesn’t know about CFC, so the bulk of the sonnet will just be describing the place, then how often we have threads pitting so-called “social justice warriors” against so-called “men’s rights activists,” then saying that I’m amused to watch the battles.
@Mise. Thanks. Are you at work on the second version of your sonnet?
Borachio
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I've not forgotten about this. But I'm getting nowhere.
I can think of no rhyme for "manner" but "spanner". A mechanical rhyme.
And nothing to rhyme with "clear grey eyes" but "wintry skies". A seasonal, but forbidding rhyme.
No. I wasn't born under a rhyming planet. And that's the simple truth of it.
I can think of no rhyme for "manner" but "spanner". A mechanical rhyme.
And nothing to rhyme with "clear grey eyes" but "wintry skies". A seasonal, but forbidding rhyme.
No. I wasn't born under a rhyming planet. And that's the simple truth of it.
Mise
isle of lucy
I've not forgotten either! I'm going to Botswana next week, which again should be a good time to rewrite a sonnet...
CommonKnowledge
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Don't think I've ever written a sonnet before so it's probably awful. Think I did a few limericks at school but I managed not to start off with 'there once was a man from Chile...'
Theme: forgiveness
Enveloping darkness descends upon my day,
Entwined in a teeming crowd I have lost me,
Places and faces I thought dear fade away,
Whilst alone I can do naught but lament for thee.
Smashing through the prison of my own,
I reach out to gift myself a key,
Unshackled from grief so long grown,
My fledgling heart soars like a symphony.
I can not remove the emptiness inside,
Nor manacle myself to another mind,
But with steadfast resolve decide,
That tragedy cares not for who it shall find.
Loneliness courses through my wintry body with disdain,
But summer will soon follow and only new life remain.
Theme: forgiveness
Enveloping darkness descends upon my day,
Entwined in a teeming crowd I have lost me,
Places and faces I thought dear fade away,
Whilst alone I can do naught but lament for thee.
Smashing through the prison of my own,
I reach out to gift myself a key,
Unshackled from grief so long grown,
My fledgling heart soars like a symphony.
I can not remove the emptiness inside,
Nor manacle myself to another mind,
But with steadfast resolve decide,
That tragedy cares not for who it shall find.
Loneliness courses through my wintry body with disdain,
But summer will soon follow and only new life remain.
Zkribbler
Deity
How about: banner, branner, canner, danner, hanner, kanner, manor, planner, sanner, scanner, spanner, tanner
And for "eyes," how about: "ayes, buys, buy's, cries, crise, dies, di's, dries, dyes, eis, eye's, eyes', flies, fries, fry's, geis, gries, grise, guise, guys, guy's, guys', highs, hise, i.s, i.'s, i's, ise, kise, kleis, knies, krise, kyes, lies, lise, mies, mize, nies, nuys, pies, plies, pries, prise, prize, ries, rise, schleis, shies, sighs, size, skies, sky's, spies, spy's, thais, thai's, theis, thighs, ties, tries, tsai's, vies, whys, why's, wies, wise, wyse, y.'s, y's, advise, allies, ally's, applies, apprise, arise, baptize, belies, chastise, complies, comprise, decries, deffeyes, defies, demise, denies, despise, devise, disguise, emprise, french fries, give rise, goodbyes, implies, incise, july's, mcfly's, mihai's, pint-size, red-eyes, relies, replies, reprise, revise, shanghai's, supplies, supply's, surmise, surprise, unwise, upsize, f. b. i.'s, improvise?"
For further help, see rhymezone.com
Gori the Grey
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I know you're just channeling your inner Benedick, but I'll also take this post seriously.
Feminine rhymes are permissible, but be careful of them. For them to sound right, the earlier part of the line needs to be set up, prosodically, in certain ways.
"Eyes" is a good line-ending word because of how many rhyming words there are, as Zkribbler has shown. In fact, one of my bits of advice was going to be to end your lines with such words, where possible, just to open up the largest number of other things you might say in the rhyming line. "Wintry skies" might not be inapposite, given how forbidding she has been to you so far. You can hint at your discontent, while staying on the windy side of badmouthing her.
We'll draw this sonnet out of your pate yet, like birdlime from frieze, if need be.
One line at a time. Give my your "manner" line, and let's see what we can do with it.
Nice job, CK. Your skills in limerick composition won't help you with the meter of a sonnet. Limericks are in a triple rhythm. There ONCE was a MAN from nanTUCKet, whereas the meter of sonnets is iambic, every second syllable stressed. In the course of your sonnet, you actually move, broadly speaking, out of a triple rhythm enVELop-ing DARKness deCENDS, and toward a double rhythm. If "cannot" had been "can't" line 9 would be perfect iambic pentameter i CAN'T reMOVE the EMPT-i-NESS inSIDE. I'm not encouraging you to change it, just helping you (and others who might be following the thread) see what's involved in getting the meter, as well as the rhyme scheme, in the traditional format.
