Why Communism Failed

To me, "sovereignty" implies there is no higher authority.
Dictionary agrees:
sovereign, adjective:
5. belonging to or characteristic of a sovereign or sovereignty; royal.
6. having supreme rank, power, or authority.
7. supreme; preeminent; indisputable: a sovereign right.
8. greatest in degree; utmost or extreme.
9. being above all others in character, importance, excellence, etc.
If there is a federal government, you can´t have sovereign states. At best you can have states with limited sovereignty.
Well, yes, but strictly speaking, the United States isn't a higher authority than the states. They delegate certain powers and responsibilities to it, but it has no intrinsic claim to them, only the agreement of the states as outlined in the US Constitution. it's a voluntary obedience, a contract, in the same way that the individual US citizen is tied in voluntary contract to the government. You might argue that de facto sovereignty lies with the US government, and I'd agree, but I assume that we were taking Yeltsin's comments as describing the legal form of the proposed entity rather than the political realities; as far as I can tell politicians are generally wary of being so candid.

Wouldn't that make them a Confederation?

Edit: I think the important aspect here is that sovereignty is one of the powers delegated by the states to the federation. States can't entertain official diplomatic relations, for example, a key aspect of sovereignty.
Yes, but the right to conduct diplomatic relations as a sovereign entity is legally vested in the states, rather than the US government; it derives that right from them, rather than possessing it independently as the Canadian or German governments do.
 
I'm not sure if that's really the case in Germany. The German constitution only overrides state constitutions, and every state has the theoretical liberty to leave or join the "area of validity" of the constitution. It's how the GDR joined, legally: states were refounded, then they decided to join the FRG, not the other way around.
 
Well, yes, but strictly speaking, the United States isn't a higher authority than the states. They delegate certain powers and responsibilities to it, but it has no intrinsic claim to them, only the agreement of the states as outlined in the US Constitution. it's a voluntary obedience, a contract, in the same way that the individual US citizen is tied in voluntary contract to the government. You might argue that de facto sovereignty lies with the US government, and I'd agree, but I assume that we were taking Yeltsin's comments as describing the legal form of the proposed entity rather than the political realities; as far as I can tell politicians are generally wary of being so candid.
As Leoreth said, that sort of union is usually described as confederacy.

Anyway, my point was that the question put to the referendum was pretty ambiguous, and our current debate kind of proves that.
At most, results of the referendum showed that there was, unsurprisingly, a certain sense of belonging between most of the member states and that they didn't all hate each other to the degree of each running their own separate way at the first chance.
It doesn't mean USSR was still a viable concept. At best, UR might have been, with distinct lack of "SS" in between.
 
As I said, we're using "money" in a different sense, and I'm specifically using it to denote circulating money rather than just a set of glorified tokens. Money did in fact circulate in the Soviet Union- it just happened that most of that circulation was through and between state enterprises- which means that a market must have existed for it to circulate through. If it did not, if it was in fact a system of tokens, then it would have been issued as wages and redeemed in purchases, and that would have been the end of it. It would not and could not have formed the basis for economic administration, as it historically did.


Again, you are not making sense. Money circulated. Fine. Why does that matter?

Tokens are money. Cowry shells are money. IOUs are money. Labor-hour credits are money. They all serve the purpose of money. Some just do so more efficiently than others.

What does it matter that it circulated? It's still just keeping track of transactions. The only difference is that the transactions are not all a binary group. It is no different from those wage tokens you were talking about. It is simply a more efficient way to do the same thing.




But all that happened in the Soviet Union, just less efficiently, so that just tells us is that the Soviet state enterprises were poorly managed, not that they existed outside of a market. Haven't you ever had a crap manager?


At what point do you translate from a market economy with some command elements to a command economy with some market elements? The USSR was far more the latter than the former.


That's not the point. I didn't say that the state sector wasn't overwhelming, but that that the Soviet Union was not a "planned economy", because that would preclude the existence of a market for private business to operate in, which did in fact occur.

Same as above. The planning is what dominated. By focusing on the non-dominant part you are fundamentally distracting from what it really was.


Why would people turn to socialism if they thought that conservatism offered a solution to their problems?


The way I see it, large portions of the population have very strong tendencies to conservatism. However, conservatism concentrates wealth and power away from most of the population. Then the leaders get arrogant and over reach. Then you get a reaction. Eventually that reaction runs its course.
 
Well, yes, but strictly speaking, the United States isn't a higher authority than the states. They delegate certain powers and responsibilities to it, but it has no intrinsic claim to them, only the agreement of the states as outlined in the US Constitution. it's a voluntary obedience, a contract, in the same way that the individual US citizen is tied in voluntary contract to the government.
Describing the relationship between the American states and the federal government as a contract would make more sense if the contract could ever be terminated. Which it never actually could be, not even under the Articles of Confederation, which are usually described as a system of government under which the states had sovereignty or sovereign rights, depending on your point of view.

I would tend to think that the manner in which the Constitution was ratified would obliterate any claim to state sovereignty. If you want to be pedantic, the 'people' of the United States - not the states themselves - possess sovereignty and delegate it in turns to the federal and state governments. That was the whole point of the preamble.
 
Good point, but most democracies run under the assumption that sovereignty derives from the people and is delegated to a governmental body. I think it only matters where the sovereignty is delegated to, and somewhere it has to finally end up, doesn't it?
 
Good point, but most democracies run under the assumption that sovereignty derives from the people and is delegated to a governmental body. I think it only matters where the sovereignty is delegated to, and somewhere it has to finally end up, doesn't it?
And in that case it is delegated to the national government.
 
Again, you are not making sense. Money circulated. Fine. Why does that matter?

Tokens are money. Cowry shells are money. IOUs are money. Labor-hour credits are money. They all serve the purpose of money. Some just do so more efficiently than others.

What does it matter that it circulated? It's still just keeping track of transactions. The only difference is that the transactions are not all a binary group. It is no different from those wage tokens you were talking about. It is simply a more efficient way to do the same thing.
You're retreating to an overly abstract level, here. Yes, money is "just a way of keeping track", but that doesn't say anything about how historically specific monetary systems operate. And my point is that the Soviet monetary system did not operate as a set of state-issued tokens as you are claiming, but was a necessary aspect of the entire production process. They retained it not for convenience, but because commercial exchange, however unfree, constituted the fundamental terms of the economy.

At what point do you translate from a market economy with some command elements to a command economy with some market elements? The USSR was far more the latter than the former.
How so? Because the major enterprises were state-owned? That doesn't mean they operated outside of the market. State enterprises dealt with each other and with consumers through a system of commercial exchange, that is, through the exchange of goods for money, or in certain situations through the exchange of credit-forms that stood in for money. The state was able to interfere with that to an exceptional degree, yes, and that too its toll on the economy, but those were still the fundamental terms of the economy; "central planning", the idea that the production process began in a Gosplan office and concluded at the point of consumption, was an ideologically-motivated fiction.

Same as above. The planning is what dominated. By focusing on the non-dominant part you are fundamentally distracting from what it really was.
Not at all. "Central planning", as I said previously, was a political fiction. That the Soviet state was sort-of-empowered to enforce its diktats with force doesn't mean that the economy actually worked that way, any more than it implies the same thing of, say, Russia in the Tsarist era.

The way I see it, large portions of the population have very strong tendencies to conservatism. However, conservatism concentrates wealth and power away from most of the population. Then the leaders get arrogant and over reach. Then you get a reaction. Eventually that reaction runs its course.
Do you have an historical example of this process?

Describing the relationship between the American states and the federal government as a contract would make more sense if the contract could ever be terminated. Which it never actually could be, not even under the Articles of Confederation, which are usually described as a system of government under which the states had sovereignty or sovereign rights, depending on your point of view.

I would tend to think that the manner in which the Constitution was ratified would obliterate any claim to state sovereignty. If you want to be pedantic, the 'people' of the United States - not the states themselves - possess sovereignty and delegate it in turns to the federal and state governments. That was the whole point of the preamble.
Fair enough. As I said, that was just how I understood it; I'm happy to admit that I'm wrong.

I'm not sure if that's really the case in Germany. The German constitution only overrides state constitutions, and every state has the theoretical liberty to leave or join the "area of validity" of the constitution. It's how the GDR joined, legally: states were refounded, then they decided to join the FRG, not the other way around.
And here too, I guess. I'm not doing very well today. :lol:
 
How so? If there is X amount of property to be had, and one person owns, say, X/100, then there is only 99*(X/100) for everyone else. Given that 99*(X/100)<100*(X/100), it seems self-evident that what Cheezy said is correct.

What Cheezy said:

Property you possess is, by definition, property that no one else may possess. Thus, the more property one person has, the less another has.

So what follows is you cannot trade property. Yet properties change hands all the time. (Note also the repetition of property in its own definition...)

But I notice thread has already strayed further, so... carry on. ;)
 
What Cheezy said:
Property you possess is, by definition, property that no one else may possess. Thus, the more property one person has, the less another has.
So what follows is you cannot trade property. Yet properties change hands all the time. (Note also the repetition of property in its own definition...)
I don't think that Cheezy meant that quite so literally as you are taking it. He just meant that property is a form of exclusive possession, which is not at all contentious. He said nothing about being unable to cede or transfer that exclusivity to others.
 
So what follows is you cannot trade property. Yet properties change hands all the time. (Note also the repetition of property in its own definition...)

Uh, if you trade your property, it becomes the other party's property and therefore property that you cannot possess. Trading property usually entails losing possession of said property.

I'd have thought that this was obvious.
 
Guys, I said move on... But if you insist ... (and I´m willing to assume Cheezy didn´t mean it the way he said it, but one should get one´s definitions right):

Property you possess is, by definition, property that no one else may possess.

That´s the most inaccurate definition of property I can imagine. It literally follows from this that you are forbidden to trade property.

Now can we please move on?
 
"Trade" is a transfer of exclusive possession, it's not the negation of exclusive possession. At any given moment, only one person (or group of people) may possess a given item of property, but that doesn't imply that the possessor may not change from moment to moment.
 
Problem is almost no one understands the statement that way, as Traitorfish has suggested. That's because there is more than one meaning to the word "may", and by 'may' a lot of the time people don't mean 'can possibly'. Given that, and given that people are usually pretty proficient at guessing what other people mean thanks to extensive real life experience, what Cheezy meant would be pretty clear to most people. But time and time again, you have demonstrated that you don't fall under the category of most people when it comes to your understanding of the meaning of words, so I suppose we can't blame you for misunderstanding.
 
"Trade" is a transfer of exclusive possession, it's not the negation of exclusive possession. At any given moment, only one person (or group of people) may possess a given item of property, but that doesn't imply that the possessor may not change from moment to moment.

Possession is not property. Something is not property simply because you possess it, and thus 'pure, brute possession' does not imply any corresponding ability to trade.

Also, I don't need to possess an item to own it or trade it if a system of rights exists.
 
Possession is not property. Something is not property simply because you possess it, and thus 'pure, brute possession' does not imply any corresponding ability to trade.

Also, I don't need to possess an item to own it or trade it if a system of rights exists.
Yes, yes, the English language contains ambiguities, we're all aware of that.
 
Possession is not property. Something is not property simply because you possess it, and thus 'pure, brute possession' does not imply any corresponding ability to trade.

I don't see where this was implied.
 
Guys, I said move on... But if you insist ... (and I´m willing to assume Cheezy didn´t mean it the way he said it, but one should get one´s definitions right):

Property you possess is, by definition, property that no one else may possess.

That´s the most inaccurate definition of property I can imagine. It literally follows from this that you are forbidden to trade property.

Now can we please move on?

We will not move on, because you are still wrong.

If I trade you a piece of my property, it's because you also have property that I want and think is equal in value to my own, which you desire. So we trade. We trade because while I have my property, you don't, and while you have your property, I don't. Now I don't have the property I used to, and now you don't have the property that you used to. Traitorfish still has neither piece of property, because one of us has it. If he wants it, he must have some sort of property that we want in order to obtain it.

If I have to explain more of this in tautologies, I will. It's embarrassing to have to do that, but if you can understand nothing more complicated then so be it.
 
It's wishful thinking to assume the state is hostile to economic growth - in many cases it fosters it. Let's not forget the railroads and highway systems. Or the military, the most time-honored means of redistributing wealth.

Communism, thus far, has failed for a variety of reasons:

-For one, all the states it has been tried in have no capitalist or democratic tradition. It has yet to be tried in a fully developed society such as one in Western Europe. Capitalism is supposed to develop the market, and then the state takes over; let's face it, the state's a horrible planner, based on all the shortages and surpluses.

-Never mind, like anarchism and laissez-faire capitalism, it runs on ideal sets of circumstances. All these systems rely on people being ideal actors and accepting a set of circumstances. LFC requires we all accept inequality, Communism requires we accept equality(more or less), and anarchy necessitates we treat eachother like decent human beings without the hand of the state. Humanity is not ready for any of these.
 
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