Why do you keep on beating?

[Borachio]

I don't think you ever cease to exist. That would contravene the law of conservation of something.

You do, though, I believe, cease to be aware of existing. I generally do that at least once a night. In preparation for the real long term thingy.

It's not at all horrifying, I have found; so far.

 

[warpus]

I don't think you ever cease to exist. That would contravene the law of conservation of something.

You do though. The soap you use in the morning eventually ceases to exist - the energy is all converted to other forms and in the end you get a lot of suds and other things - but the bar of soap is gone. Same with a human.

 

[Borachio]

The soap bar is gone from the bathroom, true. But I know where it's gone. It's not ceased to exist.

Your lap disappears when you stand up, though. What's to say a human being isn't some pan-dimensional entity's lap? And that you reappear again the moment said entity sits down again, eh?

 

[warpus]

The soap bar is gone from the bathroom, true. But I know where it's gone. It's not ceased to exist.

Your lap disappears when you stand up, though. What's to say a human being isn't some pan-dimensional entity's lap? And that you reappear again the moment said entity sits down again, eh?

Of course the bar of soap is gone though - it's no longer a bar of soap, it's something else. The bar of soap is gone.

 

[Borachio]

It's simply not the same. Both the analogy and the soap.

Take last Tuesday, now. Where has that gone?

Take my 7 year-old self. Where's he?

And my year-older-than-I-am-now self. Where's he?

 

[El_Machinae]

Oh, sure, as a 4-Dimensional entity, it still exists. The bar of soap is currently something that exists as a 3-D entity that will cease to exist as time passes. Our consciousness is this weird mixture of 3 and 4 dimensions, but appears to completely rely upon the 3D component. Heck, sleepiness can disrupt the 3D nature of the existence. But, the next morning it's back just like your lap is the next time you sit down.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

The soap bar is gone from the bathroom, true. But I know where it's gone. It's not ceased to exist.

Your lap disappears when you stand up, though. What's to say a human being isn't some pan-dimensional entity's lap? And that you reappear again the moment said entity sits down again, eh?

But the new lap is not the same lap. It may appear to be the same if you look superficially but it is not. What is gone is gone just like the soap bar. All physical processes are irreversible.

 

[Borachio]

I beg to differ. My lap disappears when I stand up and when I sit down again it's my lap that reappears.

If it were someone else's that would be very alarming, I'm thinking. And I'm confident I'd notice.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Both are your lap, but it is not the same lap. The first lap ceased to exist when you stand up, then when you sit down the lap appears again but it is not the same lap, it is different.

Or even if they were exactly identical how do you know it is the same?

 

[Borachio]

Then, by this logic, I go to bed at night, and wake up in the morning someone else?

(This is getting deep, very deep.)

 

[warpus]

It's simply not the same. Both the analogy and the soap.

Take last Tuesday, now. Where has that gone?

Take my 7 year-old self. Where's he?

And my year-older-than-I-am-now self. Where's he?

They're all gone. They're not concrete things anyway - just labels we've slapped on things. Some labels don't apply anymore - that doesn't say anything inherent about the universe.. but rather about the way we choose to label things.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Then, by this logic, I go to bed at night, and wake up in the morning someone else?

(This is getting deep, very deep.)

We´ll never know. It is like using a teleporter. Does the original one dies and the teleported one is only a copy with the same mind and memories or is there a continuity? It is impossible to know definitively since the teleported guy will always swear he is the original one.

 

[Borachio]

They're all gone. They're not concrete things anyway - just labels we've slapped on things. Some labels don't apply anymore - that doesn't say anything inherent about the universe.. but rather about the way we choose to label things.

Then is the "self" just one of these labels, too? I could go with that.

I fear my "self" might have something to say about it, though. He's a jealous little fella, you know.

 

[warpus]

We´ll never know. It is like using a teleporter. Does the original one dies and the teleported one is only a copy with the same mind and memories or is there a continuity? It is impossible to know definitively since the teleported guy will always swear he is the original one.

Depends on how the teleporter works. If the teleporter assembles a bunch of atoms to mimic the original - it's just a copy, and definitely not the original.

 

[Borachio]

But that's how human beings work, isn't it? Moment to moment. You gain some atoms you lose some atoms. After 7 years (or so!! before someone jumps on me) none of the "original" atoms remains.

Where'd I go?!

 

[Synobun]

But that's how human beings work, isn't it? Moment to moment. You gain some atoms you lose some atoms. After 7 years (or so!! before someone jumps on me) none of the "original" atoms remains.

Where'd I go?!

Thus starts the consciousness debate. I imagine it'll be a long, long while until we even remotely understand how we are conscious and capable of free thought. All we have now are assumptions, really. Either we're programmed machines and it's all an elaborate ruse or we have spirits that go elsewhere upon the cessation of our biological functions. It's obviously a bit more verbose and complicated than that, but that's about the general gist of it.

 

[El_Machinae]

But that's how human beings work, isn't it? Moment to moment. You gain some atoms you lose some atoms. After 7 years (or so!! before someone jumps on me) none of the "original" atoms remains.

Where'd I go?!

Actually, biologically, this isn't true. It's a bit of an urban myth.

http://www.nature.com/news/2009/090402/full/news.2009.232.html

To conduct the study, Frisén created his own version of radiocarbon dating. After the Second World War, tests of nuclear bombs spewed carbon-14 pollution into the atmosphere. This isotope was incorporated into plants and the people who consumed them.

After above-ground tests were stopped in 1963, levels of the isotope started to fall. The 14C in a cell's DNA corresponds to the amount of the isotope in the atmosphere at the time it was dividing, providing a way to date a cell's birth.

Basically, they used the 14C in people's heart cells to show that there were new cells created that didn't incorporate the isotopes after nuclear tests stopped. Since then, the same technology has been used to show that we make a few new brain cells, too.

 

[warpus]

But that's how human beings work, isn't it? Moment to moment. You gain some atoms you lose some atoms. After 7 years (or so!! before someone jumps on me) none of the "original" atoms remains.

Where'd I go?!

If you take one atom away, your consciousness remains intact, pretty much. You'd have to rip out trillions (or more?) atoms all at the same time.

That's what I mean by labels.. is the chair not the chair anymore, because it's continually losing atoms and gaining new ones? Of course not. It's a chair because we've slapped the "chair" label on it, and it will remain so until somebody cuts it in half and.. well, then it will be a half chair, I suppose. I've lost my train of thought

 

[timtofly]

No Skeeter Davis video yet?

 

[Borachio]

Here she is:

Link to video.

Aw! Ain't it sad?

It's an object lesson on how to remove all emotion from one's voice, I think.