Why so many bleeding-hearts?

...What do actually you think "sentience" means? :huh:

I guess I'll quip in. "Sentience" is one thing. Memories is another. You can have one without another. A Van Gogh painting is a record of information, placed there by a person and valued by someone. Memories are also a recording of information, and those information have an owner and it would be as wrong to destroy human memories as it would be to destroy a one-of-a-kind book.

This is where the sleeping person debate leads to, in my mind. That unconscious mind is the current owner of irreplaceable information, created and stored in an irretrievable way.
 
I was more getting at the implication that sleeping people aren't sentient, which is... Idiosyncratic, to put it mildly. Seems to suggest that GW doesn't really understand sentience, or, perhaps, sleep.
 
Well, a sleeping person has lost sentience, though then we get into the vagaries of language. Sentience can be re-initiated, but it's lost during sleep. The neuronal pathways involved in the transmission and maintenance of sentience (specifically) get hijacked during deep sleep.
 
Sentience is a substantially lower bar than self-awareness, is it not? I think people say the former when they mean the latter.
 
I don't even know if it makes sense to say that a sleeping person has lost sapience, let alone sentience. They're not actually turned off, they've just suspended certain functions. If this wasn't the case, how would we begin to explain our experience of dreaming?
 
My heart still bleeds for those 6 year olds shot to death. Does that make me a bleeding heart? One who has only voted Democrat only once? (Obama in 2008). Liberals represent the pussification (new word I just invented just now) of America. If you want to be some nerd who lives in the basement of his mother, then vote Democrat. Otherwise, be a man, grow some balls, and vote libertarian. Democrats live in basements of their mother, real men vote libertarian.

You know, it is possible to possess some emotion, and feel for those poor, innocent 6 year olds shot to death by the son of some gun nut who couldn't give up their guns for the greater good. She should have gave up her guns for the greater good. She knew her son was troubled, but yet, trained her son to shoot guns. Republicans are inhuman, and lack emotion.

My point is, it's still possible to have empathy, and feel for other human beings, and be a libertarian. Those liberals will try to make you think it isn't possible, but it is.

The key is those with guns that are accessible by family members with mental problems should give them up willingly out of moral conviction, not because some fascist (yes, even liberals can be faschist) agenda. It's for the greater good. The government is not the answer. Look inside your heart, find the moral conviction. That is the answer. Gun control is not the answer. Moral conviction is.

(note: I'm slightly intoxicated while writing this, but I think I have my thoughts in order. Government is not the answer to our problems. Being a good person, and making sacrifices for the greater good is).
 
I don't think that you're actually a libertarian. I think that you just have castration anxiety.
 
My heart still bleeds for those 6 year olds shot to death. Does that make me a bleeding heart? One who has only voted Democrat only once? (Obama in 2008). Liberals represent the pussification (new word I just invented just now) of America. If you want to be some nerd who lives in the basement of his mother, then vote Democrat. Otherwise, be a man, grow some balls, and vote libertarian. Democrats live in basements of their mother, real men vote libertarian.

If Democrats live in the basements of their parents, and real men vote libertarian, what are Republicans? Or Greens? Or Constitutionalists?
 
I don't think TF thinks anyone is libertarian:p

Depends. Failing to keep a cap on company power is rather questionable note. Plus the Ron Paul types tend to be abolustists who forget that lawlessness is a negative term for good reasons.

Between order and chaos is the path. The exstreams lead to only suffering.
 
Which again raises the question of when conservatism, a political philosophy originally defined by its hostility to politically rationalism, came to consider "reason" a virtue of a paramount importance, let alone one that it had a monopoly on? I didn't get an answer last time I asked, and I can't really say I expect to, but it would be nice if somebody at least tried.

Perfect example of my new word for 2013. That's a "Traitorphish" that there question.
 
My heart still bleeds for those 6 year olds shot to death. Does that make me a bleeding heart? One who has only voted Democrat only once? (Obama in 2008). Liberals represent the pussification (new word I just invented just now) of America. If you want to be some nerd who lives in the basement of his mother, then vote Democrat. Otherwise, be a man, grow some balls, and vote libertarian. Democrats live in basements of their mother, real men vote libertarian.

You know, it is possible to possess some emotion, and feel for those poor, innocent 6 year olds shot to death by the son of some gun nut who couldn't give up their guns for the greater good. She should have gave up her guns for the greater good. She knew her son was troubled, but yet, trained her son to shoot guns. Republicans are inhuman, and lack emotion.

My point is, it's still possible to have empathy, and feel for other human beings, and be a libertarian. Those liberals will try to make you think it isn't possible, but it is.

The key is those with guns that are accessible by family members with mental problems should give them up willingly out of moral conviction, not because some fascist (yes, even liberals can be faschist) agenda. It's for the greater good. The government is not the answer. Look inside your heart, find the moral conviction. That is the answer. Gun control is not the answer. Moral conviction is.

(note: I'm slightly intoxicated while writing this, but I think I have my thoughts in order. Government is not the answer to our problems. Being a good person, and making sacrifices for the greater good is).

For starters: using "basement dweller" for liberals ignores the grandness of how liberalism evolved as a political idea, especilly with Immanuel Kant. It is a failure of the most strawed to use "real men" when it is but a mear society created idenity and nothing more.

Second: fascism is a idea of its own, its holy book being set by the works of Carl Schmitt. It is a rather complex idea than something simply to Godwin people with.

Third: while I see the Republican party as a exstream ultraconserative, ultracapitalist, fundementalist party... I would not call their entire membership as "inhuman."

Fourth: of course liberterians can have empathy but "those liberals"... you are trying to make straw yes?

Also your defining terms by pure American definitions, forgetting that there is such thing as eccomonicly left liberterians and that liberalism is a fully made idea than some group for you to label as villains.

Fifth: appleasment policy (your giving up voluntery) will take advantage of your Godwinning; it appears like appleasment...

Sixth: "Goverment is not the answer! No to goverment" forgets the reasons why goverments exists; a issue tackled by many thinkers from Plato to Machiavelli to Hobbs to Locke to further on including critics like Rousseau and Marx. While I agree that too much goverment is a issue, the think is I am defining from thinker terms not of the middle between authoriterianism and anarchy (the true definitions) but of shifting the middle to their own end instead of taking academic considerations. Just as too hot and too cold both makes the growing of crops as of issue so must it be considered that a goverment must, while having a cap on power, is to exist for it is the communual destiny of a community.

There is two thinkers, a classical thinker and a man who influenced liberarlism, that have to be considered. The classical thinker Hobbs spoke of a State of Nature, a place without goverment, where “life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and shorty" according to Hobbs. He described it as a place of conflict, seeing it as not true freedom, instead feeling that the giving up of certains rights is of freedom. His thoughts are important in considerations of statecraft.

Yet I must turn you to is the man who influenced liberalism greatly, for the "liberals=big goverment" thing is a American falacy that forgets the terminology and the history. I turn you to the man who influenced the American Revolution: Locke. He wrote in time of James II, our last absolute monarch, before the glorius revolution of 1688 which Locke got caught up in. Locke was a thinker of rights; he was a member of the Whig Party that was an earth bound philosopher and a very English one at that. He spoke of “individual creations of God. We all have natural rights.”

Hobbs have the state of nature as violent and dark: Lock does not agree. He feels it is unpredictable. Locke thinks states are forge to promote more peace and safety. According to Locke people may suffer some restriction on their rights. What they cannot do is give away their natural liberties. Unreasonable to give away liberties. Hence Locke spoke of a right to revolt; that if the goverment fails their social contract (the "social contract" is a important term for political thinkers) then the people have a right to express their discountent... as noted by the Americans who would read his work and take influence from it.

Locke was a advocate of political association, with enourmous reverses of privacy which cannot be violated.

Hence as noted by Locke one cannot simply dismiss things as "evil." The area of political philosophy looks at the relation of state, soceity and person. While freedom is a important consideration it is important to avoid lawlessness or you will not receive true freedom but rather brutality. The community will require a note of meeting; current represenative democracy system is not fully set to the task, yet evolution in the represenative democracy model in Wales and Germany are of note in considerations of the expressed general will. It is important we avoid exstreams, as eating too much food or eating too little food be bad for you.

Seven: there was a quote I wish to end with:

Charity exist because SOME people give; welfare exist because MOST don't.
 
Because GW, you're trying to say to species that can have sex for pleasure that sex should only be for procreation and thus anyone having this position really wants to punish women for having sex.
There are lots of kinds of contraception, and I have no problem with any kind that does not cause an abortion, so that's a completely slanderous estimation of my position.
I can't believe none of you publicly caught this yet.

I think it's very important to think about why you translated "sex" into "contraception". That could be like translating "criminal" into "murderer" or "dissident" into "terrorist" if we were talking about negative things (which contraception and sex aren't inherently negative at all, generally positive).
 
I don't even know if it makes sense to say that a sleeping person has lost sapience, let alone sentience. They're not actually turned off, they've just suspended certain functions. If this wasn't the case, how would we begin to explain our experience of dreaming?

You're conscious when you're dreaming ... I don't even know if you're sentient, not really. Usually sentience and consciousness can overlap in their definitions, but dreaming is a special case.

In all of the thread so far, I've been using the two terms interchangeably. That said, there is a LOT of the sleep period where you're not dreaming; dreaming is a subset of sleep, so if someone says "you lose consciousness when you sleep", their statement is true if you don't include the dreaming part. It's more charitable to just go with that axiom, even if you want to qualify-out dreaming. You should do that bit of distinction leg-work, just to speed on a discussion.

While sleeping, your brainstem can re-initiate consciousness and sentience; but you're not sentient during deep sleep.

To say that a sleeping person has sentience is a lot like saying that a standing person has a lap. If I told you a rock does not have a lap, you'd just agree. If I declared that a standing person has no lap ... you kind of squint for a second and wonder if you'll suggest that they have a lap ("right there! you can slap the front of your thighs! that's your lap!") or if they merely have the potential for a lap that a rock cannot ever have.

five-stages-of-sleep-through-the-night.jpg
 
Which again raises the question of when conservatism, a political philosophy originally defined by its hostility to politically rationalism, came to consider "reason" a virtue of a paramount importance, let alone one that it had a monopoly on? I didn't get an answer last time I asked, and I can't really say I expect to, but it would be nice if somebody at least tried.
I don't know if that came up when you asked last time (I vaguely remember it), but didn't someone point out recently that conservatism is, counter-intuitively, the political ideology that has the most flexible with its basic beliefs?

In the days where conservatism is all about neoliberal economics and laissez-faire (something that doesn't exactly follow from its historical roots as well), it's open to attacks that point out its perceived coldness and lack of empathy. The rationality angle helps to deflect this criticism, therefore it is adopted. But the whole reason it's necessary doesn't even have all that much to do with the essence of conservatism.

If you want to be some nerd who lives in the basement of his mother, then vote Democrat. Otherwise, be a man, grow some balls, and vote libertarian. Democrats live in basements of their mother, real men vote libertarian.
That's funny, because when I think of a political ideology where young men who still live with their parents make up the largest segment, it's not liberalism.

I mean, just sample this community.
 
You're conscious when you're dreaming ... I don't even know if you're sentient, not really. Usually sentience and consciousness can overlap in their definitions, but dreaming is a special case.

In all of the thread so far, I've been using the two terms interchangeably. That said, there is a LOT of the sleep period where you're not dreaming; dreaming is a subset of sleep, so if someone says "you lose consciousness when you sleep", their statement is true if you don't include the dreaming part. It's more charitable to just go with that axiom, even if you want to qualify-out dreaming. You should do that bit of distinction leg-work, just to speed on a discussion.

While sleeping, your brainstem can re-initiate consciousness and sentience; but you're not sentient during deep sleep.

To say that a sleeping person has sentience is a lot like saying that a standing person has a lap. If I told you a rock does not have a lap, you'd just agree. If I declared that a standing person has no lap ... you kind of squint for a second and wonder if you'll suggest that they have a lap ("right there! you can slap the front of your thighs! that's your lap!") or if they merely have the potential for a lap that a rock cannot ever have.

five-stages-of-sleep-through-the-night.jpg

The newest research seems to indicate that dreams can occur during all of the stages of sleep, not only REM. We are mostly likely to remember REM dreams though, as they are by far the most exiting. Dreams during non-REM sleep are typically very monotonous and boring, with little emotional content. They frequently just involve repeating the most mundane experiences that happened the day before, without altering or extrapolating from them in order to consider new scenarios. Things like discovering that you're naked in public or trying to outrun a dinosaur are much more memorable than putting a stack of index cards in alphabetical order or practicing your penmanship.
 
Oh, it certainly can during some stages of non-REM sleep, but I thought that was too complicated to explain. You run into the same issue with near-death, whether being woken from a sleep can cause an immediate hallucination sometimes.
 
That's funny, because when I think of a political ideology where young men who still live with their parents make up the largest segment, it's not liberalism.

I mean, just sample this community.

I post a lot:p but overall I think if you sample # of posters in OT, rather than # of posts, I'm pretty sure most of the young people are liberal. And most of the older posters, I think, are more conservative.

Not all, of course. But I think its pretty accurate to say a majority of young posters, or young people, are more liberal.
 
I post a lot:p but overall I think if you sample # of posters in OT, rather than # of posts, I'm pretty sure most of the young people are liberal. And most of the older posters, I think, are more conservative.

Not all, of course. But I think its pretty accurate to say a majority of young posters, or young people, are more liberal.

Fun fact: the "you get conserative when you older" ignores many logical considerations. It is a argument of great falsacy.
 
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