The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
"Pro-abortion" might not be a perfect description of my views, but I certainly detest the label less than I do "pro-choice".Stapel said:
Why would anyone support the practice of abortion?
- Thread starter zjl56
- Start date
Mise
isle of lucy
@Shadowdude:
When it looks like a human I guess. I don't really know to be honest, I just wanted to point out that the hypocrisy is on both sides. How can you be pro life when you eat baby cows? It just makes no sense to me. I'm not really advocating either side's point of view, just saying that unless you're a vegan, you really have no right to claim to be "pro life". Maybe "pro fetal life" would be better.
When it looks like a human I guess. I don't really know to be honest, I just wanted to point out that the hypocrisy is on both sides. How can you be pro life when you eat baby cows? It just makes no sense to me. I'm not really advocating either side's point of view, just saying that unless you're a vegan, you really have no right to claim to be "pro life". Maybe "pro fetal life" would be better.
Mise
isle of lucy
By the way, when does a fertilised egg become a human? If you're gonna ask me a dumb question, I might as well ask it back...
Stapel
FIAT 850 coupé
The Last Conformist said:
Pro-abortion-right shouls be the term!
shadowdude
cynic in training
That was a dumb question!?!?! The whole issue of abortion rights is dependant on when it becomes human!!!Mise said:
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
Only if we assume we can't kill one human being for another's convenience. See Little Raven's scenario.
shadowdude
cynic in training
It is not a question of conveience, but a question of the value of human life.The Last Conformist said:
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
Did you look at LR's scenario?
shadowdude said:
I think the US government puts the value at a few million dollars, give or take a bit.
Stapel
FIAT 850 coupé
About LR's scenario:
I don't know if society can force him to let others use his machine, but it is bad comparishment anyway.
He can never be forced to give up a kidney of his own! That is what matters, I guess!
I don't know if society can force him to let others use his machine, but it is bad comparishment anyway.
He can never be forced to give up a kidney of his own! That is what matters, I guess!
Mise
isle of lucy
It's a dumb question for that very reason...shadowdude said:
And you still haven't answered it...
Little Raven
On Walkabout
*sigh* I get no love.Stapel said:
Why can't society force me to give up a kidney? Can't they pass a law that says that if someone else needs my kidney, I either give it up or get shot? I promise you, I'll give it up quite readily in that scenario. Grudgingly, I admit, but look at the alternative...
As a society, we can force anyone to give up anything. The question is, should we? I assume you're going to say that I should not be forced to give up my kidney. I agree. And if I should not be forced to give a kidney to someone else just because they need it, why should a woman be forced to give up her womb for someone else just because they need it?
Stapel
FIAT 850 coupé
Little Raven said:*sigh* I get no love.
Why can't society force me to give up a kidney? Can't they pass a law that says that if someone else needs my kidney, I either give it up or get shot? I promise you, I'll give it up quite readily in that scenario. Grudgingly, I admit, but look at the alternative...
As a society, we can force anyone to give up anything. The question is, should we? I assume you're going to say that I should not be forced to give up my kidney. I agree. And if I should not be forced to give a kidney to someone else just because they need it, why should a woman be forced to give up her womb for someone else just because they need it?
I'll keep it short:
Women should not be forced, neither should men. Not be forced to give someting away. And not be forced to keep something.
Little Raven
On Walkabout
Does it matter? Does a human have an innate right to live? I don't think so. We kick humans to curb to die all the time, when we don't kill them outright. We allow those we deem guilty to be executed. We allow those we deem unimportant to starve. We allow those we deem poor to die from lack of health care. We actively kill those we deem enemies.shadowdude said:
Why do you assume that simply being human affords you some right to life? It gives you the opportunity at life...but if you can't hack it, your fellow humans only have to help you out as much as they want to.
Why should fetuses be treated any differently?
Mise
isle of lucy
I suppose, technically, the baby is living in the mother's womb illegally without the mother's permission, and can be evicted. Once the decision is made by the mother to continue with the pregnancy, the mother then and only then accepts the responsibilities of parenthood, and thus cannot evict the baby thereafter.
Mise
isle of lucy
Incidentally, I wonder how many "pro life" activists would spend as much time and energy caring for someone else's unwanted child as they spend campaining for the abolition of abortion.
Little Raven
On Walkabout
Which is exactly what my scenario attempts to illustrate. If you believe that a person should not be required to give something up just because another person needs it to live, then there is no way to justify the pro-life position, regardless of whether you consider the fetus to be a person or not. If I should not be forced to let TLC use my dialysis machine, why on earth should a woman be forced to let a fetus use her womb?Stapel said:
Stapel
FIAT 850 coupé
Little Raven said:
Because you have nothing to do with TLC, whereas a pregnant woman is usually at least partially involved in the existance of the foetus.
Imagine: Your 5 year old kid needs the machine. Do have the rigth to refuse to use it?
I like relativity! Here we go:
Imagine I can hire your machine for 5 dollars. My 5 year old kid needs it. Do I have the right to refuse to hire it, as I rather spend those 5 bucks on a few beers?
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
JWs refuse blood transfusions. Do they have the right to refuse it on behalf of their underage children?
I have no idea what Swedish law says on this. Anyone know what the laws of their country says?
Stapel
FIAT 850 coupé
Not sure.The Last Conformist said:
I do know that in some backward ultra calvinistic towns in the Netherlands parents refuse to let their kids have the usual injections against several diseases. Once in the such and so years a small epidemy breaks out and kills some kids.
Actively keeping kids away from a treatment when the kid is actually sick, because of religious reasons, is illegal, afaik.
I do not know any cases of people bleeding to death after refusing blood transfusion.
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