[RD] Why y'all always trying to defend Nazis?

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Briefly about fascists:

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August 28. Donetsk region.
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TV channel "112" Ukraine
on the line below the weather forecast.
 
I guess I really don't understand the intricacies of the US policing system. But here the police will call for backup if they need it. They will call in reinforcements from other police departments if they have to. So are you saying that the US law enforcement can't perform its duties properly?

No amount of calling in backup actually removes the complication that your law enforcement doesn't have to face. A heavily armed column marching into a Finnish city would be immediately and rightly recognized as nothing but an enemy invasion force. Anyone participating in such a thing would go into it with absolute certainty that they were going to be rightly treated as an enemy combatant.

In the US, as demonstrated, such a column can portray itself as "just some good Americans out for a stroll the night before their very wholesome gathering in the name of freedom" and there will be plenty of idiots willing to buy their BS. Just imagine what Berzerker would be saying if his favorite brotherhood of Neo-Nazis had been wiped out in a firefight with the Virginia State police.
 
We're actually moving into a new circle. This one would be about whether the local PD in a small college city really should be equipped for fighting a war against a heavily armed invading column. Charlottesville PD either is not so equipped or for some other reason did not feel inclined to wage that war. This provides further evidence that the white supremacists weren't there to 'peacefully support free speech,' but to intimidate.

They weren't there to 'peacefully support free speech' (just who are you quoting now?), they were there to "unite the right" and protest monument removal. Some were neo-Nazis, some were gun rights activists, some were fans of the confederacy, and the rest had their own pet peeves or causes. You want to punch Nazis but when they punch back you accuse them of intimidation.

Just imagine what Berzerker would be saying if his favorite brotherhood of Neo-Nazis had been wiped out in a firefight with the Virginia State police.

The Nazis torpedoed my father's ship and yet I defend the right of neo-Nazis to speak. I'll even defend yours knowing full well you dont believe in free speech any more than the neo-Nazis you condemn. I wish I could say other wise but I dont like either of you...
 
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Only they did not go for democracy, but for a piece of bread.

Migration in the Soviet era was also present. Yes, it was more difficult to go outside the USSR, but not impossible.

1)Indeed. Proper democracy tends to provide bread as well.
2) Difficulty and hardship breeds ingenuity, which is why only few things were truly "impossible" for a determined Soviet citizen.
3) Actually, Paleolith might've looked good compared to Holodomor.
 
You can not say he wasn't clear on both terror and dictatorship being absolutely necessary steps towards his pictured utopia, however.
I can't not can not say that he can't wasn't hasn't... It's complicated, is the thing. Marx's early politics were heavily informed by Jacobinism, which was really just the default position of a European radical in the 1830s. But he doesn't discuss revolutionary terror in any detail, and his conception of "proletarian dictatorship" shifts so much and becomes so qualified that the term is hardly applicable; in the wake of the Paris Commune, he essentially defines "dictatorship" as the rule of the workers' assemblies independent of constitutional limitations, while of course the Jacobin's defined dictatorship as the circumvention of elected assemblies in defence of the constitution.

Most of the discussion of "terror" and "dictatorship" in Marx comes from Lenin and Trotsky, and in practice they're articulating the indigenous Russian tradition of revolutionary populism backed up by choice quotes from the Great Bearded One, rather than anything intrinsic to Marxism.
 
No amount of calling in backup actually removes the complication that your law enforcement doesn't have to face. A heavily armed column marching into a Finnish city would be immediately and rightly recognized as nothing but an enemy invasion force. Anyone participating in such a thing would go into it with absolute certainty that they were going to be rightly treated as an enemy combatant.

In the US, as demonstrated, such a column can portray itself as "just some good Americans out for a stroll the night before their very wholesome gathering in the name of freedom" and there will be plenty of idiots willing to buy their BS. Just imagine what Berzerker would be saying if his favorite brotherhood of Neo-Nazis had been wiped out in a firefight with the Virginia State police.

Last time a column of people marched into a Finnish city was in 2015, during the refugee crisis. They weren't treated as enemy invasion force and no-one was shot.

If you're curious how the Finnish police deals with these kinds of things, here are some video and images:

https://yespasaran.wordpress.com/2017/05/03/falun-sweden-nordic-resistance-movement-may-day-march/

That's from Sweden, but Finnish law enforcement would have done the same. What you see here is neo-Nazis marching (they gathered everyone they could from every Nordic country, some 400 people in total I think). What you also see is police covering their march. The police are there to A: protect citizens from the people marching and B: protecting the march from the citizens/counter-protesters. They do this in order to avoid violence, and as far as I know, there wasn't any.

Also I don't know Berzerker, but I doubt he's a neo-Nazi. Please try to refrain from name calling.
 
This was even more lame than the rest of the excuses you've made for these punks.

The only 'excuse' I've made is people have the right to protest and not be attacked... once people can no longer protest without the threat of being attacked much less the certainty free speech dies. If the KKK attacked a BLM protest my position wouldn't change, yours would. My argument doesn't depend on the content of their message or skin color, yours does.
 
Last time a column of people marched into a Finnish city was in 2015, during the refugee crisis. They weren't treated as enemy invasion force and no-one was shot.

If you're curious how the Finnish police deals with these kinds of things, here are some video and images:

https://yespasaran.wordpress.com/2017/05/03/falun-sweden-nordic-resistance-movement-may-day-march/

That's from Sweden, but Finnish law enforcement would have done the same. What you see here is neo-Nazis marching (they gathered everyone they could from every Nordic country, some 400 people in total I think). What you also see is police covering their march. The police are there to A: protect citizens from the people marching and B: protecting the march from the citizens/counter-protesters. They do this in order to avoid violence, and as far as I know, there wasn't any.

Notice that the neo-nazis gathered there aren't armed. That's a core difference that the US has to deal with.
 
The only 'excuse' I've made is people have the right to protest and not be attacked... once people can no longer protest without the threat of being attacked much less the certainty free speech dies. If the KKK attacked a BLM protest my position wouldn't change, yours would. My argument doesn't depend on the content of their message or skin color, yours does.

The day I need you to speak for me on what I'd do, I'll send you a post card. Until then...
 
Notice that the neo-nazis gathered there aren't armed. That's a core difference that the US has to deal with.
Yeah, luckily they aren't. But if they were, I imagine that the police would bring guns too.
 
Yeah, luckily they aren't. But if they were, I imagine that the police would bring guns too.

Well, I'm thinking that 'luck' really doesn't factor in there. Sweden wouldn't allow heavily armed racists to run around pretending they were 'protecting free speech' or whichever lame excuse they were claiming at the moment.
 
Notice that the neo-nazis gathered there aren't armed. That's a core difference that the US has to deal with.

Right wing protesters here have to deal with armed counter protesters attacking them

The day I need you to speak for me on what I'd do, I'll send you a post card. Until then...

I already know what you'd do, punch a Nazi and yell "intimidation" if they punch back. You'd keep attacking neo-Nazis and when they showed up armed you'd accuse them of being terrorists. But if it was armed KKK counter protesters attacking a BLM rally, you'd switch to my side and I'd have to smell your hypocrisy.
 
I already know what you'd do, punch a Nazi and yell "intimidation" if they punch back. You'd keep attacking neo-Nazis and when they showed up armed you'd accuse them of being terrorists. But if it was armed KKK counter protesters attacking a BLM rally, you'd switch to my side and I'd have to smell your hypocrisy.

Your pretense about "knowing me" is particularly revolting because I would never allow someone like you anywhere near me in real life, so it is guaranteed that you do NOT know me at all.
 
Moderator Action: The two of you are going to drop this discussion now, please.
 
I can't not can not say that he can't wasn't hasn't... It's complicated, is the thing. Marx's early politics were heavily informed by Jacobinism, which was really just the default position of a European radical in the 1830s. But he doesn't discuss revolutionary terror in any detail, and his conception of "proletarian dictatorship" shifts so much and becomes so qualified that the term is hardly applicable; in the wake of the Paris Commune, he essentially defines "dictatorship" as the rule of the workers' assemblies independent of constitutional limitations, while of course the Jacobin's defined dictatorship as the circumvention of elected assemblies in defence of the constitution.

Most of the discussion of "terror" and "dictatorship" in Marx comes from Lenin and Trotsky, and in practice they're articulating the indigenous Russian tradition of revolutionary populism backed up by choice quotes from the Great Bearded One, rather than anything intrinsic to Marxism.
Yup. And Jacobins as we know invented guillotine - their preferred tool to expedite social change.
If Marx didn't discuss "details" of revolutionary terror - beyond making a point about it being absolutely necessary - it was obviously so because his audience was well enough acquainted with the default Jacobin approach to not need any further coaching. The term and its intended purpose were and are entirely clear.
 
I do not agree with you about the Donbass completely. These republics declared themselves to be states. Chose the government. The history of the NDP begins in 1918, when the Donetsk-Krivoy Rog Soviet Republic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donets-Krivoy_Rog_Soviet_Republic) separated from the UPR (and these were also states) The current separatists were just taking their example. They purposefully organized the state. Yes, small and with support from outside. But this state.

It's true that they claim a de jure statehood, but from what I've read the Leftists there are highly decentralized and are managing to fight based on disorganized urban guerilla tactics, with an essentially insurrectionist strategy. This may not be the case, however, you surely would be more able to describe it than I. How is it like in reality?

The Red Army also fought for Soviet power and the state, the republic of Soviets. Although the anarchists in this army were present.

Yes but in those days the Soviet meant something very different from what it eventually became in the 60s-80s. They were workers councils that more closely resembled a commune than a state, no?


But I do not agree with this. In the sense that it is not possible for a man with capitalist thinking to place one moment in the society of victorious communism. Imagine that tomorrow came communism, everything is free, no one forces you to work, there is no police and army. What will people do? They will go to plunder and kill, because thinking has not changed.

I was born in the USSR, in this country the worker could talk to the director as an equal and live in the same house with a deputy. There was equality. But most of the thinking remained capitalistic. The desire for accumulation has not disappeared even to half a century of Soviet power. Most of my friends still today, after almost 30 years, have many items bought at home in the USSR. Utensils, household appliances, clothes, cloth, spare parts for cars ... People did not even use this stuff, it's new. And the question "why did you buy it?" They can not clearly answer. But I repeat, these were people born in a stable socialist country. The economic basis of the United States allows us to declare communism today, but people are not ready for it. They will kill each other by sharing junk.

First you should achieve equality, but only after that think about decentralization and anarchy. (Although I repeat, I am for the existence of the state)

This is true but the idea of communism existing immediately has never been realistic nor have I tried to pretend it is. The realistic course of events would probably follow a difficult revolution even to abolish capitalism. However I think that the selfishness you describe is a product of the culture of decadence among capitalist society, and that this culture would collapse alongside the capitalist system during the revolution.

The ruling classes will not agree to equality. For them, this is destruction. They will have to fight with them. (This happened in the USSR during the Civil War)

That is certainly to be expected.

In Ukraine, nationalists demolished monuments to Lenin and other Soviet leaders. Monuments are history.

People are history, their lives make history. Stories are history. Monuments are symbols, and what those symbols represent is never more important than the people whose history they reflect. Lenin would surely have despised the languishing of the state capitalist organization in the later Soviet state, and quite surely would've also permitted monuments to him to be torn down when he knew what they represented to the people who destroyed them.

Demolition of monuments, renaming of cities and streets is an insult and humiliation of those who respect these statesmen.

Respecting the statesmen of the past more than the people of the present is very much antithetical to the spirit of communism.

This is one of the reasons for the civil war in the Donbass.

Maybe in a very, very small way. I should certainly say that economic collapse and political instability were more significant factors.

Slavery is bad, but prescribing the history of the country is dangerous. In the US, a lot of weapons from the population and there is an atomic bomb. Civil war can be terrible. In your country, the opposing sides and ideology are already clearly defined. Even the scenarios of confrontation are similar to what was in Ukraine. The only difference is that in the US so far there have been no "unknown snipers" and "sacred sacrifices"

We have had a Civil War once before, and it was fought without much infrastructural damage because the victorious side had a massive economic and logistical advantage. Should Civil War happen again, we shall be careful not to damage our infrastructure, as we have been quite conscious of throughout our history.

The idea is good, I share it. But I do not understand why this should be abandoned by the state.

The state is not necessarily the only way to organize leadership in human society. In fact I disagree that leadership should be organized at all.

I suppose that without the state power will be seized by large companies (corporations) or private armies.

Not if the people are more capable of self defense.
 
I failed to see why you would bring it up. In fact I still don't understand why you brought it up in the first place. Yes, it could have been worse, and I've never denied that. But I still don't see how it relates to anything.
Of course you don't.

Holocaust denial is absolutely stupid flat-earth level conspiracy stuff mixed with anti-semitism, but I'm not sure why it should be illegal.
Since you object to my posting Wikipedia links, I will advise you to Google "Jim Keegstra" and "Ernst Zundel."

Both were Holocaust deniers, and both got in serious legal trouble for promoting their twisted views. Keegstra was a high school teacher in a town in my province and he indoctrinated his social studies students with this anti-Jewish filth. The kids were expected to regurgitate this stuff back in their assignments, if they wanted to pass. Keegstra's trial was held in my city, so we really couldn't get away from it. Even one of the people I worked with in the local theatre (I used to work in musical theatre, on the properties crew; he was one of the lead actors) defended them.

Keegstra was stripped of his teaching license, but later he decided to try politics - becoming a candidate for the Social Credit Party (right wing conservative party with added fundamentalist religious views). He didn't get many votes, and later opted to stay out of the public eye.

Zundel was actually a citizen of Germany, and was deported. Both of them are dead now, and not missed in the slightest.


Is there still something that you would like a link for? In my opinion, it's not unfair of you to ask for one.
I was curious about what you said regarding who really invented the zero, so I looked it up myself. As I said, my point was that the Europeans got this knowledge from the Arabs. Who invented it is of less importance, since there are some of the major inventions that have been independently invented in different parts of the world at different times.

But I don't see why you would credit the Arabs for something they didn't invent, but merely transferred. I mean my chemistry book didn't invent chemistry, it simply transfers that knowledge. I feel no gratitude towards that book, but rather to the people who discovered the stuff the book talks about. I mean I daresay that that information would have been transferred even if the Arabs had never existed.
Why do you think the information would have been transferred from someone else? According to some of what I read, the Mayans knew about zero, but we already know the Europeans couldn't care less about what the natives of this continent knew or believed.

I give credit where it's due, and people willing to share knowledge deserve credit for that. Some just hoard it and refuse to share, and while that might benefit them in the short term, in the long term it usually benefits everyone.
 
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