Will it be steam based?

[Afforess]

There have been many cases where DRM has harmed legitimate uses.

Have you ever locked yourself outside your car before? Your own DRM hurt you.

 

[azzaman333]

I have a laptop that is my primary CIV playing PC.
My laptop does not support an internet connection.
I want to play CIV5 on my laptop.

How do I do that if the game requires steam?

Case closed.

How do you do that if the game requires online activation that isn't steam based?

Because based on recent DRM trends, developers will force you to activate your game online in one way or another. Whether it's steam or something else is irrelevant.

Also, I find it extremely hard to believe there are laptops that would be able to play Civ5 that are unable to connect to the internet.

 

[negZero]

Any programming can be circumvented with enough effort. Clearly DRM does not stop people from doing what it's supposed to prevent. Therefore it should be removed as the benefit to the company is very small and the detriment for consumers ranges from a slight inconvenience to very large. All modern forms of DRM use invasive techniques (the same ones used by malware) to gain control of your computer; some are just do more harm than others.

PS: not everyone cares about online play. Also I can think of more ways for a brillent programmer to get around DRM that uses online activation that don't break online play.

Treating average users as criminals is not the answer.

WRONG!!! Steam in fact must knowingly be installed onto a computer, can easily be uninstalled, and even turned off. These 3 things are something malware doesn't have. But just so I can piss on the anti-Steam crowd and say its raining Stardock DRM is no way malware for you to put legit CD key to get updates.

Any programming can get circumvented? HAHAHAHA, only client side programming can, good luck reprogramming the servers.

I don't like having extra applications running in the background regardless of memory usage - call it OCD if you want. Maybe my perspective is skewed by the fact that civ is the only game I play.

I didn't know the normal shortcut works (don't use steam). I use Vista's (soon to be 7's) games explorer, which has the added benefit of being able to right click on the icon and select which mod I want to run (I have it configured to display as a menu on the start menu, so I don't even need to open it up). I've always thought of games as just like another system application in terms of management, not a special category in and of themselves.

First Steam can be turn on/off whenever you want and second the thing uses no memory (okay uses like a kilo but thats nothing)

I have two experiences with Steam, neither of them in person and neither of them positive. First time I heard of it was here on CFC: some people who had bought the game through Steam and couldn't get a mod (I think it was either FFH or Star Trek) to work. I can't remember if they managed to get it to work, but it does leave a negative impression. Second experience (again, not firsthand) is with Tales of Monkey Island. You can buy the game both from Steam and from the company's own site, however: Steam took a few days putting new chapters up for download and you don't get the free DVD-copy (whenever they finally release that, that is). Now I'm sure there are people with positive experiences with Steam, but given the choice between Steam and non-Steam civ V, I'll choose the latter anytime.

Yes games brought off Steam treat mods differently and most don't realize this screw up the install. In most cases with the second its because of the developer and other D2D services then Valve's fault when something gets released. Not getting a free DVD-copy is the developer's fault not Valve's.

And the point is also:
If i lose my disc/cd key, it's my fault.

If my internet connection crashes, if the additional needed programs/services do not work, if the servers are down, so i can't play my game, it's not my fault, and i'll become sure f***ing angry because of that.

My CD, my control.

Steam only needs a monthly connection not a 24/7 connection, thank you, please come again when you get a real argument.


Now can someone with a real anti-Steam argument please stand up, I know theres a real problem with Steam but none of you bring it up yet.

 

[deanej]

WRONG!!! Steam in fact must knowingly be installed onto a computer, can easily be uninstalled, and even turned off. These 3 things are something malware doesn't have. But just so I can piss on the anti-Steam crowd and say its raining Stardock DRM is no way malware for you to put legit CD key to get updates.

Any programming can get circumvented? HAHAHAHA, only client side programming can, good luck reprogramming the servers.

I was talking about DRM in general, not steam specifically. Any game that's infected with SecuROM won't tell you that it's installing SecuROM into the kernel where SecuROM will do all sorts of bad stuff (such as block processes like Process Explorer and DVD/CD stuff, change how your CD drive operates, etc.).

You don't have to reprogram the servers. You simply need to fool them, which is probably quite easy. No software is perfect. I would highly recommend listening to the podcast Security Now to learn just how vulnerable software is.

 

[negZero]

I was talking about DRM in general, not steam specifically. Any game that's infected with SecuROM won't tell you that it's installing SecuROM into the kernel where SecuROM will do all sorts of bad stuff (such as block processes like Process Explorer and DVD/CD stuff, change how your CD drive operates, etc.).

No you were talking about all modern DRM, not some, ALL . Now just say you made mistake and don't know what your talking about.

You don't have to reprogram the servers. You simply need to fool them, which is probably quite easy. No software is perfect. I would highly recommend listening to the podcast Security Now to learn just how vulnerable software is.

Which is still programming on the client side of things which we side you can do, but will throw up reflags like mad when dozens of same keyed games try going on the same server. Thank you for the fail you can go now.

 

[PieceOfMind]

In many parts of the world, having a 3D graphics card is a luxury. Are you going to argue that the game should support software rendering?

No because that would probably make developing the game more expensive and also probably more expensive for the end user. Presumably, packaging DRM with a game doesn't make it cheaper to develop (unless the DRM providers are paying the developer, but I don't think it works that way - I'm not sure).

So your argument here is kinda pointless isn't it?

In many parts of the world having a computer at all is a luxury! We should make Civilization 5 a board game instead.

An attempt at a joke?

The overwhelming majority of the target market have a persistent internet connection. Almost all of those who do not, still have intermittent internet access - more than enough to activate a game online.

The fact is that if you don't have internet access - none at all, even if you wanted it, there is no way you could connect to the net - you are in a minuscule minority of modern gamers.

Whether you like it or not, you ARE living in the past - be it for geographical reasons or what ever. And you are outside of the target demographic of most games which require online activation and it would be ludicrous to think that you are going to have any sway over the direction of a modern game.

I'm living in the past am I? Apparently, to live in the present, you require internet connection.

I'm not expecting to have any sway over the steam-only or steam-optional decision that will (or more likely has already has) be made. Nor should you expect to. At best if Civ5 is steam only, it will be a nuisance to me. I will probably still buy it, but it will not produce any loyalty in me to desire more Firaxis games.

There's going to be a Steam version and a non-Steam version - it's what 2k/Take-Two have been doing lately. The non-Steam version is still going to have some crappy DRM like Windows Live that requires an internet connection to activate, though. I would bet copious amounts of money on this.

Probably.

Yes, you can back up steam games to a disc or harddrive. I do it. Thus, your entire post IS moot.

I know it's not right to say anything "personal" but it seems rude to me to call my entire post moot. Argue against it if you will, but to state one fact and claim it makes my post irrelevant (which I assume is what you mean by moot) to me is like trolling because you make no attempt to say why.

This post is to clear up information about Steam, since 90% of you seem to be misinformed. This is a list of what steam is and isn't; nothing more, nothing less.

Steam & Offline Gaming

Steam does not require you be online to play your games. It works just fine in offline modes as well.

...

For someone who wants to install a game offline, can it be done if it is steam-based?

If not, as I said earlier, it does not make my post moot (I'll even include an exclamation mark to emphasise my point)... !

I have been many times in a scenario where I have had to re-install a game (typically through modding accidents or windows installs) and have not necessarily had a computer connected to the internet (e.g. taking a computer on holidays).

If a Steam-based game can be installed completely offline, including updates/patches, then my problem would be moot. Is this possible?

Playing devil's advocate here:

Why not? You do this to everyone else every day. Don't you lock your door when you leave your home? Don't you trust the average person? Why treat average people like criminals?

I would have thought the answer to this was quite obvious. You are not trying to sell anything to "average people". Why do you think it is that in most supermarkets that have those alarms at the end of their registers, that when one of them goes off as a customer walks out, no one stops them? Hassling a paying customer over a bottle of shampoo or something that they paid for anyway is probably only going to piss them off and they'll never shop there again.

If I'm trying to sell a product to someone, I'm not going to treat them like a criminal. That would be one of the easiest ways to ensure a lost sale.

If I went to a bookstore and found a book I thought I'd enjoy, but learned that to open it required first activating it online, and thereafter you had to use a little security keycard in its vicinity to open it, I'm not likely to bother with a purchase because of the extra hassle. DRM lovers would have us believe the way of the future is to make sure this hassle is always there just so devs can feel better that their games are not being copied.

Anyway, I can't remember if I said this earlier in the thread, but my main point is this:
If the game were steam-based only, more than likely it would significantly affect (negatively) the total number of sales. If Steam was optional, and there was an alternative NON-steam hard copy version available, there could only be more sales.

 

[azzaman333]

For someone who wants to install a game offline, can it be done if it is steam-based?

If not, as I said earlier, it does not make my post moot (I'll even include an exclamation mark to emphasise my point)... !

I have been many times in a scenario where I have had to re-install a game (typically through modding accidents or windows installs) and have not necessarily had a computer connected to the internet (e.g. taking a computer on holidays).

If a Steam-based game can be installed completely offline, including updates/patches, then my problem would be moot. Is this possible?

I think that the game can be installed offline somehow, but I've never tried it since I've never had the need. I'm not sure about updates or patches, but I would guess that it would be possible provided the patches for the steam version are hosted in such a way that you could save them to the hard drive.

 

[cspyr0]

I would just say that if you meet the following conditions, then Steam really is worth a shot.

A) Can initially download ~5GB, and you will have (at the very least) an intermittent internet connection once a month

B) Haven't been personally screwed by Steam

C) Don't care about reselling the game

D) Don't have this weird need to have a physical game box to sleep with at night

The other option is to pray to whatever deity (I recommend baby jesus) that the DRM you get doesn't require internet at all, doesn't scan your computer and limit emulation software, doesn't limit your installs, etc.

 

[Chalks]

I'm living in the past am I? Apparently, to live in the present, you require internet connection.

Yes, yes you are. Like it or not, refusing to utilise the modern world leaves you in the past.

There is no impetus to design games that work for people with no internet access because you are an insignificant portion of the gaming public. There really isn't any excuse. Dial up will do for this purpose. A free AOL dial up CD. Satellite internet exists for remote locations. Even if you are living in a cave that cannot receive satellite and have no phone line in your house it still wouldn't matter because you are such a tiny minority.

Additionally, since you CLEARLY have access to the internet by some method, even if it is an internet cafe simply owning a lap top would allow you to validate the game.

So yes. If you do not have internet access AND do not own a lap top AND do not have a working phone line but you ALSO want to play modern games you are in a tiny minority of people living in a technological stone age but wanting the benefits of 2010.

I'm sure you don't like this fact. That doesn't make it less true.

 

[Afforess]

If a Steam-based game can be installed completely offline, including updates/patches, then my problem would be moot. Is this possible?

Yes, it can. You can back up steam games to a DVD or harddrive, then install them from there. The version you back up it the version you reinstall.

Sorry to seem rude, but your post really is moot, and I'm sick of all this misinformation after 8 pages.

 

[Grey2ham]

I think we all agree that we would like no DRM in an ideal world, whether we choose to download o buy a boxed game.
I prefer to buy boxed (major titles), but will also buy digital (mainly through steam, and mainly cheap deals).

However we all have to accept there will be some kind of copy-protection. Its now standard. We're all happy enough entering a CD-key for an offline program to authenticate. We did it for CIV. I struggle to see how an online one-time activation is different?

The question here IMO should be: if there is going to be online copy-protection then which type would we prefer?

If there is to be some online verification of authenticity/ copy protection, then IMO steam is by far the best choice. It is a much more attractive method for the consumer than other options, bringing in a good marketplace and social networking interface. One-time activation rather than constant 24/7 authentication.

I fully anticipate being able to buy a boxed copy and then having to use some one off activation online, and probably for future content updates/patches.

As an aside I don't hear anyone complaining that they needed a gamespy account to play CIV multiplayer online.

As a further aside, can these forums link stats off steam direct? Some sort of profile association?

 

[nokmirt]

I would not purchase if its on steam. I never play online so I feel to have to deal with that, would just be a waste. Total War did the same thing, and I have not bought one of their games since Medieval Total War 2. PC games should have the option to play even if you do not have the internet. Also I have read that steam has issues sometimes, and you are not able to play if they do.

In any case I am just used to going to the store, and buying the game, and installing it on my computer, putting the game disc back in the box, and putting the box away. Thats a great run on sentence, and I do not want to shorten it with Steam. I like being able to click on my shortcut to start the game, without having to use my game disc. Everyone on here is talking about the future. Why rush things, it will come, but lets wait at least until civ 6 or 7. Civilization is a traditional game to hell with the future. Just because some new idea just shows up does not mean we have to apply it. You know why, because new ideas are usually and suddenly replaced by newer and even better ideas. We should wait, soon steam will be obsolete. For all I no it probably already is. I do know I have read nothing but complaints about it. The reason I do not want to have to play online is a matter of personal privacy, I think that the more we have to do online, the more the powers that be have more access into our lives. Ever seen the Matrix?

 

[Intellectus]

Yes, yes you are. Like it or not, refusing to utilise the modern world leaves you in the past.

There is no impetus to design games that work for people with no internet access because you are an insignificant portion of the gaming public. There really isn't any excuse. Dial up will do for this purpose. A free AOL dial up CD. Satellite internet exists for remote locations. Even if you are living in a cave that cannot receive satellite and have no phone line in your house it still wouldn't matter because you are such a tiny minority.

Additionally, since you CLEARLY have access to the internet by some method, even if it is an internet cafe simply owning a lap top would allow you to validate the game.

So yes. If you do not have internet access AND do not own a lap top AND do not have a working phone line but you ALSO want to play modern games you are in a tiny minority of people living in a technological stone age but wanting the benefits of 2010.

I'm sure you don't like this fact. That doesn't make it less true.

Ah yes, putting down people just because they got no internet access.

 

[deanej]

No you were talking about all modern DRM, not some, ALL . Now just say you made mistake and don't know what your talking about.



Which is still programming on the client side of things which we side you can do, but will throw up reflags like mad when dozens of same keyed games try going on the same server. Thank you for the fail you can go now.

If the Windows product activation server can be fooled, then surly a game company's server can be fooled. Admit that no programming is perfect and that pirates will always find a way.

Yes, I was talking about modern DRM (such as SecuROM). Thanks for stating the obvious.

@Grey2ham: The US version of civ never had a CD key. I don't know about other versions. What's bad about activating with an online server is that if you want to install the game years from now, that server will no longer be there, and you will no longer be able to play your game.

 

[Chalks]

Ah yes, putting down people just because they got no internet access.

Come back when you have managed to decipher why the fact that gamers with absolutely no internet access are in a minuscule minority is significant. It has been said several times, so please actually read the posts in this thread on both side of the argument before you decide to post something.

If the Windows product activation server can be fooled, then surly a game company's server can be fooled. Admit that no programming is perfect and that pirates will always find a way.

You do not understand the difference between server side and client side authentication.

When windows gets hacked, it is not the windows product activation server that is fooled, it is the LOCAL windows installation that is fooled. You trick your windows installation into thinking it is already activated so it never contacts the activation server to find out otherwise. The server knows it is pirated, but it never gets contacted.

When steam controls the entire online gameplay aspect of a game, it CANNOT be bypassed with this part of the game intact.

Sorry, you really do fundamentally misunderstand how this stuff works.

Playing a pirated game on servers that require a valid game activation is like transferring money out of someone's online bank account without having valid log-in credentials. The server knows you don't have it, so it simply won't let you in.

 

[Jawa'sRevenge]

I have nothing against Steam, but I honestly can't afford it, as my internet has bandwidth restrictions. Ever game I have got is either from stores, garage sales, or eBay (expect for UDK)

 

[Senethro]

I have nothing against Steam, but I honestly can't afford it, as my internet has bandwidth restrictions. Ever game I have got is either from stores, garage sales, or eBay (expect for UDK)

Did you know that the majority of steam-only games are still released in a physical disc format that you can install from the disc, then register on steam?

 

[negZero]

I have nothing against Steam, but I honestly can't afford it, as my internet has bandwidth restrictions. Ever game I have got is either from stores, garage sales, or eBay (expect for UDK)

And odds are you buy the box version of the game and will have to have it connect once month to the Steam servers.

@deanej See what Chalks said because he got it right.

 

[Greybriar]

So what's with the Steam promotion I see in this thread? And why are those of us who don't want Steam being treated like dirt? I see a lot of "answers" that support Steam which are not accurate. The only thing I see that is consistent is that there are some Steam fanboys doing all in their power to sell the idea of Steam.

I don't want Steam. That is my choice. If Civ5 requires Steam in order to install and play as do the last two Total War games, I will not buy it just as I did not buy them.

That's all folks. I'm outa here.

 

[deanej]

@deanej See what Chalks said because he got it right.

Fine. But my point still holds true for games that do do multiplayer through a central server. Actually, it still holds true for those too, cause the pirate will simply go without the game rather than pay for the game.