William C Rogers III - War Criminal, Terrorist, or Incompetent?

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Shekwan

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I've been reading about Iran Air 655 incident recently, where an American warship under the command of William Rogers shot down a passenger jet leading to the death of all 290 on board. Among the 290 were 66 children, and many of the victims were probably alive as they plummeted from 10,000 feet to their death in the Straits of Hormuz.

The United States has never officially apologised, and William Rogers continued his naval career, and continues to live in San Diego.

Here's the wikipedia article on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

Why has this guy not been brought to justice? And why has there never been an official apology from the United States?

If it was an error; then why was this incompetent man allowed to stay in the military? Not even discharged.

I used an emotive thread title to gain attention, but I'm raising a serious question. Don't get hung up on my hyperbole.
 
I've read that the US military, largely due to people like General Schwarzkopf, made a point of not apologising for anything their soldiers did around that time, simply as a means of protecting individuals from criticism. I don't know much about this incident, but it sounds like the last of your three options, but criminal. Criminal negligence. You'd have to make a case for me to believe it is one of the first two options.
 
The incident did not show the whole navy in a good light not just the captain of the Vincennes.

The Lockerbie incident may also have stopped an apology after the facts came out.

The ship was an air defence cruiser designed to defend a carrier battle group against multiple attack by soviet missiles. The fact that the system could not correctly identify a passenger aircraft on a scheduled flight makes the system look ineffective. If an apology was made this would have made the failure of the system more widely know. This would have made funding of high tech weapon systems more difficult.
 
We study this case ad nausem the Navy along with the Stark incident. The simple fact is that while it would have been theoretically possible to identify this contact as none hostile, there were still plenty of indications that would lead one to think the opposite as well.

It should be remembered that this did not take place in a vacuum. At the time this incident occurred Iran was engaging in armed conflict with America, and the USS Vincennes itself was engaging hostile Iranian surface targets at the same time. Fog of war is real, and if I remember correctly one of the watch standers erroneously reported to the Captain that the contact was descending (an act that can be used to demonstrate hostile intent) when it was in fact ascending.

Another thing to take into account that despite what movies and video games tell you sensors are not magic. The information you get in your HUD in "fighter ace III" is not the information a real watchstander is looking at. So the "OMG WHY WOULD YOU THINK AN AIRLINER IS A FIGHTER!!!" instantly rings as innocent ignorance to the ears of someone like me why has actually used radar to identify air contacts with that exact same system (SPY-1D). It is not as easy as you think, and it is not a 100% confidence game.

Thing to remember:

1.) The Iranians allowed their commercial aircraft to transit over a war zone, during an attack they initiated. Not exactly smart.

2.) The airport that the airline took off serves a duel purpose as a military air base, the exact military air base any Iranian air support would have come from at the time.

3.) The suspected attack platform was an Iranian F-14, a very large fighter.

4.) The Vincennes attempted to hail the aircraft on multiple times on both military and civilian emergency frequencies. The Iranians failed to respond. A reason for this was that the terminology for communication was not fully standardized at that time, something this incident prompted to be fixed.

Yes, I think it was a mistake. I also think it was an understandable mistake. In the end the situation that made this whole thing possible, and unprovoked and illegal attack on a US helicopter by Iranian forces leading to a larger surface action coupled with the recklessness of Iran then flying civilian aircraft over top all of this, was the root cause. These were deliberate acts on the part of Iran as well, not mistakes like on the part of the Americans.

In all reality the IRCGN probably never even told anyone in Iran what they were doing in the SOH that day, which along with their already illegal attack makes them the only war criminals related to the case.
 
I forgot to mention that from the American side the most disturbing thing is that the airliner was squaking mode III, however anyone can do that and while some of you might find it offensive to do so it can't be denied that if you want to close with a civilian casualty averse American warship a good tactic to do so would be to use mode III. Given that this is Iran I don't find it all that odd to want more than that, especially with a (false) report of descending in attack profile.
 
It's good to get your informed opinion on this, Pat. :)

Two things though; this whole 'fog of war' thing strikes me as being just as 'video-gamey' as someone thinking that a radar system literally tells you what the aircraft is. Doesn't the navy have lots of checks to go through before engaging, even in a situation that could be described as 'fog of war'? Isn't 'fog of war' a bit of a catch all excuse for negligence? The second question leading from this would be; if this is not the case, isn't that quite an indictment of the naval checks that are in place to prevent this type of thing, and what, if anything, has been done as an upshot of this to rectify any errors in the system?
 
Its just another case of a bunch of BS that nearly 300 people have to die because the US and Iranian government's have to act like children.
 
Patroklos, is this a totally different situation to the USSR shooting down the Korean airliner?
 
Thing to remember:

2.) The airport that the airline took off serves a duel purpose as a military air base, the exact military air base any Iranian air support would have come from at the time.

So if at the same time the Iranian navy had had a vessel inside the territorial waters of Hawaii would they be justified in shooting down a US airliner that had just taken off from Honolulu International if they thought that it could be a F14.
 
Its only wrong if someone else besides the US is doing it.
 
It's good to get your informed opinion on this, Pat. :)

Two things though; this whole 'fog of war' thing strikes me as being just as 'video-gamey' as someone thinking that a radar system literally tells you what the aircraft is. Doesn't the navy have lots of checks to go through before engaging, even in a situation that could be described as 'fog of war'?

Of course not. Go make an omlet ans see how you do. Then try making three at the same time and see how you do. Then try make three at the same time but all with wildly differing ingredients. Then try and make three omelets at the same time with wildly different ingredients and bake a cake at the same time and so on and so on.

Any watchstander is traking multiple tracks, and while individuals can do it better than other individuals everyone no matter who you are is going to have a harder time understanding and reacting to situations as the enviroment becomes more intense.

This happens to you in rush hour traffic, I am sure you can understand it happening to someone in a war zone.

Now, most assuredly we train to cope with that, and to know when we can't cope and thus recognize our degraded capability when that happens. But when that happens that doesn't mean you can stand up and punch out of the situation. The war is still going on. You just modify your decision making based on your reduced capability. You do, however, still make those decisions. Again, its not a 100% confidence game.

The watch stander who reported a descending target most definitely made a mistake, but like anyone in any profession doing anything mistakes happen. I assure you every surgeon you ever met has made a mistake, but you let him perform surgery on you anyway. That doesn't make it right, but it does make it understandable.

In a situation like this which was 1.) unexpected 2.) involved multiple warfare areas 3.) involved an ongoing engagement and 4.) had some technical challenges that are described in the wiki I really can't say I would make that same mistake 1 time out of 100.

As for the Captain and the OP, the fog of war magnifies as you go up the chain of command like a telephone game. The Captain was told he had a contact taking off from the local military air base headed right for him while he is engaging surface contacts (coincidence?) AND it is now descending in attack profile. Did he just say "FIRE ALL MISSLES!?" No, he had the contact hailed on seven times on military and civilian frequencies with no answer. We can monday morning quarterback him all day, but given those details is it really inconceivable to think it was indeed an Iranian military aircraft?

Isn't 'fog of war' a bit of a catch all excuse for negligence?

No.

The second question leading from this would be; if this is not the case, isn't that quite an indictment of the naval checks that are in place to prevent this type of thing, and what, if anything, has been done as an upshot of this to rectify any errors in the system?

The only thing I can think of is the track merge thing. The way link 11 works is that all the ships share a picture using all of their sensors. What the USS Sides saw the USS Vincennes saw and visa versa. We can go into the specifics later, but basically one ship (the most advances ship) is selected to lead and coordinate the picture. This is for the most part done automatically based on preset parameters and there are thousands to choose from. The lead ship when having targets held by multiple vessels will evaluate each track and then decide which ship has the best hold on that track and then suppress the others and use that one to push to everybody else. In this case the Vincennes had a track with an assigned number, but then the Sides picked it up with a better quality, so Link 11 canceled the Vincennes track and replaced with that of Sides which was using a different track number.

That can be confusing in and of itself, because with fifty track numbers on the screen a sudden switch might bet missed in a really intense situation and you lose awareness of the track. Its hard, again not like video games.

It gets harder though. Totally unrelated to this situation but still inside the link picture (this can cover hundreds of thousands of square miles) there was an American A-6, who was picked up by a vessel in the link picture and thus assigned a track number. In an EXTREME case of coincidence and bad luck this A-6 was assigned the same track number that the Iranian airliner originally had.

Now, on a combat display you can view things in two ways. First, you can just look at the top down geographic display to see where everything is on a map, with track numbers tagged to them. However, if that picture is cluttered or you want to focus on something else like surface contacts without the air contacts you can manage your tracks by simple list on a different display. So if you are tracking that Iranian aircraft by its track number alone, in list format, turn you head for two seconds and come back and still see that same track number you don't think anything has changed. But what happens if in those two seconds LINK merges that track and the reassigns that same number to a different track? You might notice it, but I think any honest person can see the difficulty. And this is just an inherent disadvantage of operating in a complex environment that demands so much information about every single thing.

Patroklos, is this a totally different situation to the USSR shooting down the Korean airliner?

Not totally, but there are some very serious divergences off the top of my head.

1.) The Soviets in question were not engaged in any hostilities whatsoever at the time, which means there is no logical reason to think a single air target of any sort military or civilian was any eminent threat. There are other reasons to shoot things down, but they are not as imperative as self defense.

2.) The Soviets were never concerned about their safety, but were only concerned about losing face with their superiors. That's why they shot it down. That motivation is not as easily used to justify their actions.

3.) Their decision was made over a matter of hours, not minutes, there were no time constraints and the stresses that brings on.

4.) Even if the Korean airline had been identified as military, it had already passed over Soviet territory twice and was back over open ocean exiting Soviet territory when they shot it down. There was never any question or eminent threat.
 
Originally Posted by Patroklos
As for the Captain and the OP, the fog of war magnifies as you go up the chain of command like a telephone game. The Captain was told he had a contact taking off from the local military air base headed right for him while he is engaging surface contacts (coincidence?) AND it is now descending in attack profile. Did he just say "FIRE ALL MISSLES!?" No, he had the contact hailed on seven times on military and civilian frequencies with no answer. We can monday morning quarterback him all day, but given those details is it really inconceivable to think it was indeed an Iranian military aircraft?

The Captain was told he had a contact taking off from the local civilian airport and military air base. Just like the USA Iran has military bases on its civilian airports.

So would a US airliner on a local flight taking off from "Honolulu International" respond too “Unknown aircraft on course 206, speed 316 position 2702N/05616E you are approaching Iranian Naval warship request you remain clear".

It would not be inconceivable to think it was indeed a US military aircraft and make a mistake but would the USA be to blame for their airliner being shot down.
 
Dude, you comparison is not valid for all the same reasons the Soviet one isn't and then some.

I know you think you had a zinger, but I am not going to waste my time with your obviously flawed imaginary counter example.
 
@Pat- thank you for your answers. Your argument appears to be that this is an excusable mistake, simply because the situation was a difficult one. I love this quote:
Geoffrey Robertson said:
There are rules for driving in fog, and there are rules for driving in the fog of war.
Mistakes happen, yes, but so should accountability. You make the point that surgeons make mistakes too. But if one made a mistake as big as this one (or as close to this as you could get from the point of view of a surgeon), then they would likely lose their job and possibly face criminal charges. It is their responsibility to make sure that they perform their job correctly. Negligence occurs, sure, but that doesn't make it excusable. If your job is to make those three omelettes with different ingredients and you fail in doing so, then your must face the consequences. Both the task and the consequences are higher when we're talking about the military. If you don't have those consequences, how are you not just making out that the losses are tacitly acceptable?
 
Wasn't this around the time a turret on the Iowa blew up and the Navy brass blamed it on one of the victims and even tried to frame the guy? Did anyone pay a price for that BS? Why should we trust anything the Pentagon tells us? I sure as hell dont...
 
Wasn't this around the time a turret on the Iowa blew up and the Navy brass blamed it on one of the victims and even tried to frame the guy? Did anyone pay a price for that BS? Why should we trust anything the Pentagon tells us? I sure as hell dont...

Yep, anyone in the US who pays taxes.
 
Just another item on the long list of poorly handle US military "accidents.
 
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