Worst trait BTS?
- Thread starter Agramon
- Start date
Bandobras Took
Emperor
I'm afraid I voted Spiritual, since Golden Ages now provide Anarchy-free Civics switches, and the relative worth of multiple Civics switches depends largely on game speed. Christo Redentor also obsoletes it late game, when you actually have all your Civics available.
madscientist
RPC Supergenius
Gotta go with Protective for all the reasosn everyone has discussed before.
nbcman
King
- Joined
- May 10, 2007
- Messages
- 896
I picked Expansive. Health usually is not an issue in my games so +2 
is not that great. Happiness is usually the cap not health.
Also the bonus to building workers is only on
. I usually build workers in high food surplus cities so the expansive bonus does not help that much.
is not that great. Happiness is usually the cap not health.Also the bonus to building workers is only on
. I usually build workers in high food surplus cities so the expansive bonus does not help that much.
Simple solution - solemnly declare Industrious to be Bananas!
***
I'm torn between Aggressive and Protective, as those are the only traits that have a good chance of being absolutely useless for a very long time (if there is no suitable victim around). Protective is an early-game life insurance and a solid warmongering trait by the time siege will have superseded melee units as the prime city attackers, while Aggressive makes a rush more effective and can lead to gains that rapidly snowball but loses out as the game progresses.
At the settings I play, a rush without an early UU has a good chance to be either too costly or too risky to be solid on a no-reload policy, so for me the worst trait is AGG.
***
I'm torn between Aggressive and Protective, as those are the only traits that have a good chance of being absolutely useless for a very long time (if there is no suitable victim around). Protective is an early-game life insurance and a solid warmongering trait by the time siege will have superseded melee units as the prime city attackers, while Aggressive makes a rush more effective and can lead to gains that rapidly snowball but loses out as the game progresses.
At the settings I play, a rush without an early UU has a good chance to be either too costly or too risky to be solid on a no-reload policy, so for me the worst trait is AGG.
Skallagrimson
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2006
- Messages
- 2,043
Protective annoys me--I don't know about "worst" in an objective sense but it's my least favourite to have. If I want a unit to have CGI/DI I'll promote it that way myself. I don't need them to be like that for free. And about 80% of my force will NOT be needing the CG/Drill lines of promotions. At least the free CI with agg is somewhat more flexible, more widely usable throughout the army.
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2008
- Messages
- 27,995
I understand the reasoning for AGG, but I'd not pick it as worst. I like the flexibility of the instant counter-promos and the ability to build massive amphibious gunpowder armies at a whim (and if you can't use your melee or gunpowder early, the amphibious and cheap drydocks will help). IMO just more versatile than PRO, though it's also kind of down there. I like IND only somewhat for its wonder boost, but much more for faster heroic/national epic, GT, and the cheap forges that help cities take off faster early on.
Rating expansive poorly is kind of a joke. At least, I think it's a joke. Unless you're going mids, the
cap isn't limited - just slap more units there until you can trade for resources. In the early-mid game and beyond, it's the health cap that truly hampers city growth. However, the +2 health is just icing. The cheap workers and the 1 pop whip GRANARY are what set the trait apart. Cities get up to speed faster with EXP than with any other trait (maybe close with CRE).Edit: Picked PRO for the reasons discussed in the other thread. It isn't dynamic, its early units are terrible for active defense, and it only finally comes into its own far into the game, when other traits could have helped you all along and would continue to do so.
well, i'll try to make a summary on what this traits generally do. i understand my attempt is doomed to be unsuccessful, but still i'll try.
1. Organised.
Generally it allows you to REx faster, and more effectively, either through settling or warmongering. Its uses are especially strong and evident early-game, although it gives forge-price factories, facilitating industrialisation.
2. Financial.
This merely allows you to produce more beakers, both by directly gaining more commerce for science and providing the opportunity to keep slider higher. It also indirectly facilitates expansion. It provides all-game-time gains.
3. Spiritual.
It saves you from either several turns of anarchy or nesessity to wait with civics changes before you can expend GP's for GA. Gains are most strong mid-game and late game, but however it must be taken into consideration that you can emulate this trait by beelining Radio and building CR (for the cost of NOT beelining military techs, however)
Spi also gives you free diplomatic points with other civs for accepting their SR's and FC's.
4.Protective.
Pro enhances espionage economy and makes your city defences much stronger and your gunpowder units more versatile. It's gains are all-game-long, but somewhat situational (as it seems to me). It is especially strong when you actually run EE.
5. Aggressive
it makes your early-to mid game armies much stronger and axe-sword rush much earlier and easier.
Gunpowder units benefit from it, too, so, taking into account this and cheap docks, it provides also some all-game-long benefits.
6.Philosophical
It allows you to beeline selected techs surprisingly fast, providing you monopoly on key techs and thus allowing to have superior military or build selected wonders when it's necessary. Cheap universities lead to fast oxford, thus giving more beakers. beeline is effective through all first half-game and unis+oxford have the greatest impact in mid-game, IMHO.
7. Imperialistic
It provides early benefit by cheaper settlers (if you hammer-build them), allowing to grab more land (when not boxed or isolated), or grab your faster (when boxed or isolated). Double GG emergence is good forever, but minor.
8. Creative
It grants early-game benefits, allowing you to place your cities optimally, granting them +20% defence bonus (same as CG1 promotion). It allows your cities (pre-CS) to produce research faster and get GS faster.
9. Charismatic.
I'd say it gives you early-game benefits,too,
it gives +2 (with monument) early happines, allowing you to either whip 2 more times or grow 2more pop. It also makes easier to get S-medics and CR3 units.
10. Expansive
It provides early game benefit by shaving several turns of workers production (in case you hammer build workers, too) and 1pop-whippable granary. harbour is icing, imho.
It facilitates industrialization too, with that +2 health.
11. Bananas
Bananas allow you to get selected wonder more easily (1 per era is pretty guarantied, IMHO)
And gives you cheap forges, which are early, expensive, needed almost everywhere, and are only buildings to allow engineer. all-game-long gains, but the strongest early-game, when you want wonders without tech lead, i think.
So after much thinking, i'd like to withdraw my vote and keep it to myself. All traits are great, as it seems. I have my favourites, but definitely cannot pick one i would consider the worst.
1. Organised.
Generally it allows you to REx faster, and more effectively, either through settling or warmongering. Its uses are especially strong and evident early-game, although it gives forge-price factories, facilitating industrialisation.
2. Financial.
This merely allows you to produce more beakers, both by directly gaining more commerce for science and providing the opportunity to keep slider higher. It also indirectly facilitates expansion. It provides all-game-time gains.
3. Spiritual.
It saves you from either several turns of anarchy or nesessity to wait with civics changes before you can expend GP's for GA. Gains are most strong mid-game and late game, but however it must be taken into consideration that you can emulate this trait by beelining Radio and building CR (for the cost of NOT beelining military techs, however)
Spi also gives you free diplomatic points with other civs for accepting their SR's and FC's.
4.Protective.
Pro enhances espionage economy and makes your city defences much stronger and your gunpowder units more versatile. It's gains are all-game-long, but somewhat situational (as it seems to me). It is especially strong when you actually run EE.
5. Aggressive
it makes your early-to mid game armies much stronger and axe-sword rush much earlier and easier.
Gunpowder units benefit from it, too, so, taking into account this and cheap docks, it provides also some all-game-long benefits.
6.Philosophical
It allows you to beeline selected techs surprisingly fast, providing you monopoly on key techs and thus allowing to have superior military or build selected wonders when it's necessary. Cheap universities lead to fast oxford, thus giving more beakers. beeline is effective through all first half-game and unis+oxford have the greatest impact in mid-game, IMHO.
7. Imperialistic
It provides early benefit by cheaper settlers (if you hammer-build them), allowing to grab more land (when not boxed or isolated), or grab your faster (when boxed or isolated). Double GG emergence is good forever, but minor.
8. Creative
It grants early-game benefits, allowing you to place your cities optimally, granting them +20% defence bonus (same as CG1 promotion). It allows your cities (pre-CS) to produce research faster and get GS faster.
9. Charismatic.
I'd say it gives you early-game benefits,too,
it gives +2 (with monument) early happines, allowing you to either whip 2 more times or grow 2more pop. It also makes easier to get S-medics and CR3 units.
10. Expansive
It provides early game benefit by shaving several turns of workers production (in case you hammer build workers, too) and 1pop-whippable granary. harbour is icing, imho.
It facilitates industrialization too, with that +2 health.
11. Bananas
Bananas allow you to get selected wonder more easily (1 per era is pretty guarantied, IMHO)
And gives you cheap forges, which are early, expensive, needed almost everywhere, and are only buildings to allow engineer. all-game-long gains, but the strongest early-game, when you want wonders without tech lead, i think.
So after much thinking, i'd like to withdraw my vote and keep it to myself. All traits are great, as it seems. I have my favourites, but definitely cannot pick one i would consider the worst.
Bleys
Deity
Style of play, difficulty level, and map all play a big role on this topic. If I have to pick a "worst", I will go with Pro, but I dont think Pro sucks by any means. All traits have strengths, and while some are obviously stronger than others, none are un-leveragable.
vicawoo
Chieftain
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2007
- Messages
- 3,226
Let's talk about civic switching:
slavery. One turn of anarchy. Probably not going to start a golden age then.
Caste system: if you're spiritual, you can use artists instead of monuments. If you're not, it's probably not worth it.
Organized religion + religion: at least 2 turns of anarchy. Very painful, but you're probably not going to use a golden age to switch one civic.
bureaucracy: another difficult trade-off. Worth it for a bureaucracy capital, but you're losing probably 150-200 science, 75 hammers, and a bunch of great people points?
Caste+pacifism (+religion if not adopted earlier): you can't switch back to slavery, but if you're growing you're focusing on developing commerce cities, you haven't built your markets in your non-capital, and you might still want to whip them. Bureaucracy/caste/pacifism probably worth a golden age.
Later civic switches, you have a decent chance of having spare great people by then.
And then there's various spiritual tricks, like switching out of slavery to reduce slave revolts, actually using serfdom for periods of time, almost completing multiple units, then switching to vassalage/theocracy and switching back, and running a bona fide food economy (grow, run caste system, whip away after great person is generated).
slavery. One turn of anarchy. Probably not going to start a golden age then.
Caste system: if you're spiritual, you can use artists instead of monuments. If you're not, it's probably not worth it.
Organized religion + religion: at least 2 turns of anarchy. Very painful, but you're probably not going to use a golden age to switch one civic.
bureaucracy: another difficult trade-off. Worth it for a bureaucracy capital, but you're losing probably 150-200 science, 75 hammers, and a bunch of great people points?
Caste+pacifism (+religion if not adopted earlier): you can't switch back to slavery, but if you're growing you're focusing on developing commerce cities, you haven't built your markets in your non-capital, and you might still want to whip them. Bureaucracy/caste/pacifism probably worth a golden age.
Later civic switches, you have a decent chance of having spare great people by then.
And then there's various spiritual tricks, like switching out of slavery to reduce slave revolts, actually using serfdom for periods of time, almost completing multiple units, then switching to vassalage/theocracy and switching back, and running a bona fide food economy (grow, run caste system, whip away after great person is generated).
fugazi
King
I voted for protective. It adds nothing to my game that will give me that edge that will make me win. The other bottom trait is aggressive, but at least that one makes the units I use to take cities with early on better. I also love cheap barracks and drydocks.
That's the thing. In a normal game, you do only a handful of switches. Going to whip soon? Ooh, now I have to decide whether to switch now. Maybe you're 8 turns away from Monarchy. Do you switch to slavery now, or trudge through for the next 8 turns, then wait to switch.
With spiritual, you just, switch. Don't need to whip anything for a few turns, it doesn't hurt you to switch to caste, even if you don't run an artist.
Or the most criticial is the Theocracy/OR/Pacifism swaps. Someone on your doorstep, and you just whipped an axeman? Switch to Theocracy and you right away get your second promotion. No more pondering, "well, half my cities are building buildings, and the other half units - which should I go for?". You can just keep alternating.
I wouldn't rank it the best, but I do think it's far from the worst (probably industrious or protective - industrious is really weak if you don't build wonders).
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2008
- Messages
- 27,995
The ability to swap civics like crazy is underrated. Particularly strong is going between caste/pacifism to farm great people and slavery/OR to whip infrastructure with minimal penalty. Nationhood and theocracy jaunts can be quite useful too.
futurehermit
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2006
- Messages
- 5,724
industrious is incredibly strong and i don't understand why people would vote it the WORST trait! obsolete has showcased its power even at high levels. being able to nab certain key wonders (e.g., stonehenge, gw, oracle, glh, pyramids, gl, sol, pentagon, etc.) is really, really handy, not to mention the cheaper national wonders as well (he, ne, gt, etc.). on top of that cheap forges! you don't have to spam wonders with industrious, but being able to nail down certain key ones that give an economic bonus during the period where economy is an issue (glh, pyramids, oracle, gl) is really solid.
worst i would say is protective unless playing multiplayer. the AI is just too poor at war in order to make protective valuable enough in single player.
EDIT: If the AI were voting, it would say that protective is a top-tier trait though
worst i would say is protective unless playing multiplayer. the AI is just too poor at war in order to make protective valuable enough in single player.
EDIT: If the AI were voting, it would say that protective is a top-tier trait though
Bleys
Deity
Active trait vs Passive trait. For myself, I see PHI as a middle-pack trait, because I don't leverage it very well. Those who dont actively use SPI to change the game find it mediocre because its possible they dont do many extra switches. When I play an SPI leader, I forget to take advantage of it all the time.
Anyone else having deja vu? I feel like I made a post like this a couple weeks ago, heh.
I too cann't belive that someone would vote spi as worst trait. 
If you play it right, you are jumping between caste/slavery, bureau/vassal and org.rel/theo/paci ALL THE TIME.
And those are just the more frequent oszilations, you can do crazy stuff and I could write pages on it's versatility.
If you play it right, you are jumping between caste/slavery, bureau/vassal and org.rel/theo/paci ALL THE TIME.
And those are just the more frequent oszilations, you can do crazy stuff and I could write pages on it's versatility.
vicawoo
Chieftain
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2007
- Messages
- 3,226
Expansive, you have to use it right. As I posted in another thread, chopping an expansive granary can let you be be ahead 2 population compared to whipping an expansive granary. And if you compare that to a non-expansive granary:
First 5 turns
Chopping an expansive granary:
Size 1, chop and put in 10 extra hammers while growing 11 food (say forested grassland)
Non-expansive granary with one cop
Size 1, chop, 15 food, 5 hammers
Non-expansive granary with no chops
Size 1, 15 food, 5 hammers.
Now assume you have an improvement, so let's just focus on food counts
11 food later:
Chopping an expansive granary:
Size 2, 12 food from granary
Non-expansive granary with one cop
Size 2, 4 food, almost 30 hammers on granary
Non-expansive granary with no chops
Size 2, 4 food, <, 30 hammers
12 food later
Chopping an expansive granary:
Size 3, 13 food from granary
Non-expansive granary with one cop
Size 2, 16 food, >30 hammers, whip granary->
Size 1, 16 food
Non-expansive granary with no chops
Size 2, 16 food, <30 hammers
8+26+12=46 food later
Chopping an expansive granary:
Size 6, 20 food from granary (somewhere about 3/4 to size 7)
Non-expansive granary with one chop
Size 5, 16 food
Non-expansive granary with no chops
Size 4, 12 food whip->
Size 2, 12 food
So with expansive, you could have a library whipped by the time a no chopping non-expansive granary whips the granary. Granaries are usually not worthwhile while REXing, but if you can chop them out, your double speed city growth is a big deal.
Aggressive, you get early shock/cover axes:
Normal CR1 axe vs 20% bonus archer: 5 strength vs 3*(1+0.50+0.25)=4.5 strength. R=1.1
Aggressive cover axe: 5.5 strength vs 4.35 strength. R=1.26
Normal axe vs archer defending city on a hill with 20% bonus: 5 strength vs 3*(1+0.50+0.50+0.25)=6.75. R=0.75 1/R=1.35
Aggressive cover axe vs archer defending city on a hill with 20% bonus: 5.5 strength vs 3*(1+0.50+0.50+0.2)=6.6 R=0.83 1/R=1.1
and for fun
normal cr1 axe vs archer on hill with 60% bonus: 5 vs 3*(1+0.50+0.50+0.25+0.4)=7.95 R=0.63
aggressive cover axe vs archer on hill with 60% bonus: 5.5 vs 3*(1+0.50+0.50+0.25) R=0.71
First 5 turns
Chopping an expansive granary:
Size 1, chop and put in 10 extra hammers while growing 11 food (say forested grassland)
Non-expansive granary with one cop
Size 1, chop, 15 food, 5 hammers
Non-expansive granary with no chops
Size 1, 15 food, 5 hammers.
Now assume you have an improvement, so let's just focus on food counts
11 food later:
Chopping an expansive granary:
Size 2, 12 food from granary
Non-expansive granary with one cop
Size 2, 4 food, almost 30 hammers on granary
Non-expansive granary with no chops
Size 2, 4 food, <, 30 hammers
12 food later
Chopping an expansive granary:
Size 3, 13 food from granary
Non-expansive granary with one cop
Size 2, 16 food, >30 hammers, whip granary->
Size 1, 16 food
Non-expansive granary with no chops
Size 2, 16 food, <30 hammers
8+26+12=46 food later
Chopping an expansive granary:
Size 6, 20 food from granary (somewhere about 3/4 to size 7)
Non-expansive granary with one chop
Size 5, 16 food
Non-expansive granary with no chops
Size 4, 12 food whip->
Size 2, 12 food
So with expansive, you could have a library whipped by the time a no chopping non-expansive granary whips the granary. Granaries are usually not worthwhile while REXing, but if you can chop them out, your double speed city growth is a big deal.
Aggressive, you get early shock/cover axes:
Normal CR1 axe vs 20% bonus archer: 5 strength vs 3*(1+0.50+0.25)=4.5 strength. R=1.1
Aggressive cover axe: 5.5 strength vs 4.35 strength. R=1.26
Normal axe vs archer defending city on a hill with 20% bonus: 5 strength vs 3*(1+0.50+0.50+0.25)=6.75. R=0.75 1/R=1.35
Aggressive cover axe vs archer defending city on a hill with 20% bonus: 5.5 strength vs 3*(1+0.50+0.50+0.2)=6.6 R=0.83 1/R=1.1
and for fun
normal cr1 axe vs archer on hill with 60% bonus: 5 vs 3*(1+0.50+0.50+0.25+0.4)=7.95 R=0.63
aggressive cover axe vs archer on hill with 60% bonus: 5.5 vs 3*(1+0.50+0.50+0.25) R=0.71
I like industrious. Not my favorite, but pretty good. Wonders do provide unique benefits, after all. It allows production heavy cities to boost your economy if wanted/necessary. When you have a strategic resource and are industrious, and instead of building gold or research you just build a wonder you don't expect to complete first. You either get a lot of gold from a city that doesn't need a university anyway, or you complete a wonder and your whole economy improves.
The forge is also one of only 3 buildings you're generally going to build in every city, the others being granaries and courthouses. The +1
is a minor annoyance, the happiness boost is great, and the production bonus gives a huge return, especially if you build the forge first, which you'll tend to do if you're industrious.
I'd say industrious kind of needs the oracle -> metal casting strategy to be really good, though.
The forge is also one of only 3 buildings you're generally going to build in every city, the others being granaries and courthouses. The +1
is a minor annoyance, the happiness boost is great, and the production bonus gives a huge return, especially if you build the forge first, which you'll tend to do if you're industrious.I'd say industrious kind of needs the oracle -> metal casting strategy to be really good, though.
