Would you consider 180 cm to be short for a man?

[Kyriakos]

I'm about 175cm and I feel pretty average. That said, there's a big range around here. In any crowd, there's often men who are shorter than I am and women who are taller. (One day a few years ago, I was on the subway and 10-12 college girls got on. The shortest of them was about an inch taller than I am. Two of them had to be 192-193cm. They were the volleyball team for one of the local universities.)

Local women rarely are taller than me - not that I would mind, unless they were over 1.80 ^_^

(edit: the height gap would just be too noticeable then, is all )

 

[Angst]

I've called myself 5'8" (173 cm) forever, but age/posture/HRT has me barely scraping 5'7" (170cm) lately. Yay!

And if any of you masc types really want to be taller, there's surgery for that. 3" (8cm) or even double that, inserted into your legs: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-55146906

alright so imma muse about this (not to you, but in general) because sexual selection is pretty much the only thing that matters in regards to height. it's why people care so much about it and such. so about that masculine thing

so plural, impersonal you, not second person you:

i'm slightly taller than IglooDame and honestly the heteronormative dating world is really the only sphere where height really matters (military prioritizes my size, interestingly enough), and only to some girls, who you're better off without anyways, to put it bluntly. like they're fine people as friends, but wrong to date for you, if it's the 6 ft thing. superficiality is honestly usually fine but you don't want to be romantically involved with someone whose superficial standards you don't meet

dating is not all that matters in life anyways

only real handicap in dating is if you're severely shorter than the girls and even then like

all of the masculine ideals in dating are pretty bull anyways. there's some truth to some of it, heteronormativity exists, but it's pushed way too wayyy beyond what's reasonable in the manosphere. yes, shortness is often a disadvantage but like... i'm below average height in denmark, often shorter than women i date, "femininely" sensitive, kind of a social disaster, i'm literally insane, i look like a blobby metalhead stump at this point. i still have girls like me more often than i'd personally like to. because i own my strangeness. i'm comfortable with being weird, and i go out to hang out and talk to interesting people, not to hook up. that works better than height

so i guess it's my psa. if anyone's insecure about their height, don't be. it's a disadvantage on the dating market, and that's about it.

i know that "just be yourself", "just relax", "don't be insecure about something you're insecure about" etc is bad advice, but i've already ranted too much about what i think this is all really implicitly about, so i'll stop here. it's a whole can of worms

 

[IglooDame]

alright so imma muse about this (not to you, but in general) because sexual selection is pretty much the only thing that matters in regards to height. it's why people care so much about it and such. so about that masculine thing

so plural, impersonal you, not second person you:

i'm slightly taller than IglooDame and honestly the heteronormative dating world is really the only sphere where height really matters (military prioritizes my size, interestingly enough), and only to some girls, who you're better off without anyways, to put it bluntly. like they're fine people as friends, but wrong to date for you, if it's the 6 ft thing. superficiality is honestly usually fine but you don't want to be romantically involved with someone whose superficial standards you don't meet

dating is not all that matters in life anyways

only real handicap in dating is if you're severely shorter than the girls and even then like

all of the masculine ideals in dating are pretty bull anyways. there's some truth to some of it, heteronormativity exists, but it's pushed way too wayyy beyond what's reasonable in the manosphere. yes, shortness is often a disadvantage but like... i'm below average height in denmark, often shorter than women i date, "femininely" sensitive, kind of a social disaster, i'm literally insane, i look like a blobby metalhead stump at this point. i still have girls like me more often than i'd personally like to. because i own my strangeness. i'm comfortable with being weird, and i go out to hang out and talk to interesting people, not to hook up. that works better than height

so i guess it's my psa. if anyone's insecure about their height, don't be. it's a disadvantage on the dating market, and that's about it.

i know that "just be yourself", "just relax", "don't be insecure about something you're insecure about" etc is bad advice, but i've already ranted too much about what i think this is all really implicitly about, so i'll stop here. it's a whole can of worms

This just in (not really, but that sounds better), tall people earn more money, on average. Per multiple articles, the working theory of 'why' seems to be essentially "being taller as a teenager builds a level of self-confidence that carries through life.

 

[Angst]

This just in (not really, but that sounds better), tall people earn more money, on average. Per multiple articles, the working theory of 'why' seems to be essentially "being taller as a teenager builds a level of self-confidence that carries through life.

there's a few other small statistical benefits, including iq, but yea point is: the benefits are not genetic. they have to do with the view on oneself (which is of course mostly socially taught, but still)

edit: and as samson also pointed out; environment and nutrition

you're not worse for being shorter. there's a hereditary correlation, but not a genetic one (the two are not the same)

 

[Samson]

This just in (not really, but that sounds better), tall people earn more money, on average. Per multiple articles, the working theory of 'why' seems to be essentially "being taller as a teenager builds a level of self-confidence that carries through life.

I am not sure that is the interpretation. Forbes says it is because better childhood environments result in both great height and better outcomes:

people who grow up in healthy, constructive environments become taller, smarter, and more successful than those who grow up in impoverished, destructive environments​

​

I have not quite got that from the paper yet, but I am trying.

 

[Kyriakos]

Don't you people recall how comfortable rooms were when you were a little kid?
I do.
Being tall serves no purpose imo ^_^

 

[Angst]

Don't you people recall how comfortable rooms were when you were a little kid?
I do.
Being tall serves no purpose imo ^_^

as a teenager i lived in my dad's basement, where my best friend was literally not able to stand up anywhere

 

[sophie]

so i guess it's my psa. if anyone's insecure about their height, don't be. it's a disadvantage on the dating market, and that's about it.

This is the same genre of comment that is used to deny women access to affirming surgeries all the time (not just ffs and grs, but also cis breast reduction/augmentation). I’m just going to leave aside the unkind thoughts I have about this line of reasoning and reply with a simple no

 

[Angst]

This is the same genre of comment that is used to deny women access to affirming surgeries all the time (not just ffs and grs, but also cis breast reduction/augmentation). I’m just going to leave aside the unkind thoughts I have about this line of reasoning and reply with a simple no

i have a strong feeling you're assuming i believe or argue for things i don't. while i think you left out the unkindness for the sake of respect and friendliness, it also means i'm unsure exactly what you thought i meant. maybe i should have delved more explicitly into my views on how to handle cis dating as a male, where stuff like height is a source of anxiety (not good for oneself) and toxicity (not good for either self or others). but it was kind of off topic for the thread. edit: like, i'm very willing to further expand on the whole height-dating-market-point but then please ask me in a response or do a thread opening or something; i felt it was too off for the thread for current cfc moderation.

basically the distinction is between masculinity (which can be healthily affirmed) and toxic masculinity (which can also be affirmed, but has an underlying problem, and doesn't always serve the issue).

my thoughts mostly have to do with toxic presuppositions among men (some lonely, some not) about self-worth in regards to height. some of these suppositions coalesce into some really harsh views and the world if gone to far, redpilling, blackpilling and such.

to be as clear as possible, i support quite radical freedom in bodily autonomy, whether it has to do with plastic surgery, expressive modification or gender-affirming care. if you want to get the care brought up in this thread that makes you 8 cm taller, go ahead.

so my distinction is the distinction between masculinity and toxic masculinity. from what i understand, most feminists, me included, agree that masculinity isn't the problem, but toxic masculinity is. if you want your body to be in another shape, whether due to preferences, identity or dysphoria, go ahead. it's literally healthier for you. if you want your body to be in another shape due to being "redpilled", it's bad. in the vast majority of cases you're talking about, where bodily modification is done due to preference, identity or dysphoria, it's healthy medical practice in society to provide those services. and for the meagre minority of cases where things go wrong, anti-lgbters can sensationalize that all they want, it's still akin to basic risk assessment of medicine. sometimes appendectomies go wrong.

basically, for the men i'm talking about, being taller will not solve the issue of anxiety, which is being imposed identity and behavior by chauvanistic forces in spite of what you actually are.

 

[sophie]

And again, what I’m telling you is this is verbatim the argument I hear all the time told to my cis friends in an effort to dissuade them from getting breast reduction surgeries. It’s also the most common remark made to trans women who want ffs (oh but you already look so feminine/you’re so pretty/don’t let the patriarchy dictate your feelings about your body etc.).

Like logically your argument doesn’t follow: “if you want to augment your body due to […] preferences that’s fine, but if you want to do it due to being redpilled (a preference), that isn’t fine…?

If a man feels he needs to be taller, great! If a man feels he needs a hair transplant, awesome! If a man wants a few millimeters of bone shaved off or whatever, go for it! Mediating this **** through the lens of medicalization (I.e. only valid when expressed in pathological or “medically necessary” terms) is just gross. And I condemn it in all forms because I live the consequences of the medical profession chauvinistically imposing gates like this every damn day. If the person feels they need it, then they need it, simple as.

 

[Narz]

if you want your body to be in another shape, whether due to preferences, identity or dysphoria, go ahead. it's literally healthier for you. if you want your body to be in another shape due to being "redpilled", it's bad

How do you know whether the desire for self change (whether physical, social, intellectual, etc) comes from a healthy place or not?

 

[Narz]

If the person feels they need it, then they need it, simple as.

I'm not gonna touch the trans issue because I don't know much about it but for the average "cis" person with self esteem issues dropping a ton of money to let a doctor slice up your body in hopes to feel better, well it's something you should think about for a good long time before you do it.

Body modification thru consistent lifestyle action is gonna be alot more empowering than a tummy tuck.

Likewise for mental modification thru drug use (it has its place for serious conditions but Americans are more medicated than ever before and mental illness is thru the roof) won't be as empowering as looking at the issues contributing to your condition.

People quick to jump to doctors to fix their deep seeded issues w superficial cures. $$$$

 

[Angst]

@schlaufuchs i want no gates imposed, we're also discussing different issues because of different demographics. again i'm specifically drawing on the perspective of men that got partly into pickup artistry or incel crap and got near or full red pilled, but got out because of a perspective of the toxic perspective they were under. the general issue of toxic approaches of the male gaze (from and onto themselves, in this case) is however somewhat broader and can be discussed structurally in.

How do you know whether the desire for self change (whether physical, social, intellectual, etc) comes from a healthy place or not?

i know it's a leftist broken record, but it depends. one should basically never stop someone from seeking change. it's also kind of a warping from my initial statement, which was literally like

someone: "i want to get taller so i can score better"

to which my point is... in that case the person doesn't like... want to be tall. the person wants to score. often to sustain a self-worth purely through scoring. because men have to score, therefore men have to be tall. edit: joji answered this, and i just want to be clear about this: when i say men "have to" score, there's a problem with the outlook. i'm describing the heteronormative, not supporting it.

schlaufuchs says that the underlying logic behind that serves dissuading people from changing bodies. there's a good reason for this, because a big problem trans people (and cis women) face generally is people saying eg "well genders are social constructs under the patriarchy, why are you reinforcing the wrong ends for yourself?" i understand that this is hurtful logic, but i am not arguing for any gatekeeping. we're way before body modification comes into question; i was giving dating advice. x)

 

[Sofista]

180cm is absolutely fine, tall even.

"Short" is 166cm (5'5") and under (said he, standing proudly at 167cm/5'6").

 

[Lexicus]

I'm 190 cm so 180's short to me lol

 

[Kyriakos]

180cm is absolutely fine, tall even.

"Short" is 166cm (5'5") and under (said he, standing proudly at 167cm/5'6").

1.67 is awesome, particularly if coupled with neoteny
I am only 5 cm taller than you.

 

[Joij21]

to which my point is... in that case the person doesn't like... want to be tall. the person wants to score. often to sustain a self-worth purely through scoring. because men have to score, therefore men have to be tall.

Well men do have to score. A man who doesn't lose his virginity by 30 is considered by society to be a worthless loser. Being labeled an incel for this doesn't help either as they are considered shorthand for domestic terrorist. Thus losing one's virginity as fast as humanly possible is the norm for contemporary heterosexual males.

So it's not about love, it's about avoiding the incel label. No one honestly cares about the quality of the women in question, it's about the sexual act that must be bragged about within a timely manner.

But yeah that's just my two cents as to where I believe the heterosexual male world of pickup artists and "toxic masculinity" is heading towards.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Well men do have to score. A man who doesn't lose his virginity by 30 is considered by society to be a worthless loser.

don't think too many people actually care tbh. almost nobody asks each other about it in normal settings. i'm not sure if i've specifically asked someone whether they were a virgin since high school, and even there it was more an implied question by asking if they slept with someone. can't recall being asked this question either.

i suspect that it's more that "incel" is correlated with behavior/groups/beliefs that society rejects. if an otherwise normal-behaving person just went to work/school/whatever and interacted with other people in a way that doesn't stand out it could take years for anybody to notice, and even after that most people simply wouldn't care.

No one honestly cares about the quality of the women in question

the standards in the dating market appear to have gone awry in more ways than one. i don't think this is 100% true, but it is probably closer to true than it was 15-20 years ago. this does not result in healthy outcomes, for men or for women. on the women's side, they will rate 80% of men "below average" (???) and fight over the approximate top 1/5 to 1/3 (since not everyone puts the same 20% top). those will sleep with them, but due to the availability will be picky with actual relationships, if they want one. predictably, there aren't a lot of people who wind up with outcomes they'd prefer with that setup...but people keep engaging with it regardless.

Honestly this means men will probably resort to more rape in the future

also doubt this, fortunately. both for above reasons and because it's a nasty crime that requires a warped mindset to commit (either through distorted perception of reality, or just a complete lack of empathy/care for others depending on the nature of the crime). society will correctly look down on people more for doing this, not less.

 

[The_J]

Moderator Action: Back to the actual topic please.

 

[Uncle Paul]

I really don't get wanting to be tall. If you are tall, things are smaller compared to you. It's asking for less comfort.

If you're tall
- it's more aesthetic
- females prefer it
- you do better in business
- you make more money
- you are more physically imposing and people are less likely to say no to you or try to get in your way
- etc...

I'm a bit over 6 foot and I'd love to be shorter. I'd bang my head a lot less.

How tall are you in cm?

The ideal male height is the 190-200 cm range, with heights becoming less desirable below that twice as fast as they become less desirable above that...i.e. 210 cm is equally desirable to 170 cm as a male height.