WTC Mosque Part Four!!!

[MagisterCultuum]

Yes, Muslims tend to view Jesus and the greatest of the prophets, but don't have much respect for his disciples or their version of the gospel.

 

[MobBoss]

We are all God's children.

A rather odd statement for an atheist to say....

 

[Leonel]

A rather odd statement for an atheist to say....

Is it an incorrect statement?

 

[PiMan]

I'm not sure if this has been posted, and I'm not going to look through 3440-ish posts to find out, but this:

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

The point it makes has been raised, but not that particular cartoon.

But it is a good point.

 

[Traitorfish]

And it's not even as spurious a comparison as it may seem, given the extreme misogyny consistently exhibited by Islamic extremists...

A rather odd statement for an atheist to say....

Nah, we're all in Clan MacTavish.

 

[Formaldehyde]

The Imam Rauf answers the questions raised by various reactionaries that he abhors all acts of terrorism, including those made by Hamas, so he is then accused of making threats by various Fox News talking heads:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/14/stewart-fox-mosque-imam_n_715864.html

Last night on "The Daily Show," Jon Stewart mocked the media's obsession with would-be Quran-burning pastor Terry Jones, and showed how Fox News considers reasonable statements by "Ground Zero Mosque" Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf to be veiled threats to further their fear-driven narrative.

First addressing Terry "Yosemite" Jones's plan to burn Qurans on 9/11, Stewart pointed out that God both called for and called off the burning, according to Jones.

"When God told you to do it originally, he hadn't anticipated the backlash?" Stewart asked of Jones. "God didn't see that one coming?"

Stewart likened the media's constant coverage of the crazy pastor to the dog from the movie "Up!" It's like no matter what is going on the world, they will drop everything if they see a squirrel. In this case, the squirrel is an irrational person who thinks burning books is OK.

Speaking of irrationality, Stewart moved on to re-discuss the "Ground Zero Mosque" controversy, but particularly Fox News' nonsensical fear of Imam Rauf. Fox demands the Imam answer their question of "Why there?" but when he calmly explains on CNN that moving the center would send a message to Muslim nations that Islam is under attack in the U.S., and that "anger will explode in the Muslim world," all Fox hears is "explode."

Stewart pointed out that using the threat of violence, which is what Fox News consider Rauf's explanation to be, to "expedite a desired outcome," is exactly what Fox News does when it pushes for a conservative candidate. The proof lies in Stewart's clips of Dick Cheney, Mitt Romney, Sean Hannity, and others sounding way more ominous than Rauf.

Daily Show: Islamophobiapalooza

 

[Newbunkle]

I think that a couple of blocks away is a sign of defeat. We should replace the mosque that was destroyed by the terrorists on 9/11 - http://www.businessinsider.com/there-already-was-a-ground-zero-mosque-2010-9.

Put a new mosque in the footprint.

I support this idea.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Muslims believe that Jesus did not claim to be the literal Son of God, holding it to be a literal distortion which confused his metaphorical assertion- as suggested by Jolly Roger- for his actual message. Similarly, they revere the prophets of the Old Testament, and hold it to be a valid history, but consider it to be a distortion of God's word, and so not a holy text in itself (although many hold that Islam prescribes respect for the holy texts of others).

That sort of makes sense.

It may also surprise you to learn that people of many religions, even those outside of the Abrahamic fold, revere Jesus. Hindus often see him as an incarnation of Krishna, while many Buddhist hold him to be a Bodhisattva (an enlightened being), some going so far as to describe him as an incarnation of Avalokiteśvara, the Buddha of compassion. Some simply see him as a sage of great wisdom, or a good person worthy of emulation. Reverence, you see, doesn't necessarily accepting the New Testament as indisputable canon.

I would consider this to be evidence he really was who he said he was.

Actually, I'm lead to believe that both Jesus and Moses are held to have got God's word bang on, it was just their followers who screwed it up.

You mean by Muslims or Christians?

Christ himself wasn't wrong about anything, Moses was, but not about anything that was inspired.

Which shouldn't really be hard for Christians to get their head around. After all, Domination is a protestant,so he holds Catholicism to be a form of Christianity, but one that screwed up some of the details. It's pretty much the same thing, just at a more fundamental level.

Well, I've heard some people I respect say that Catholicism isn't really Christianity, but I don't really know enough about the issue. Regardless, some Catholics are certainly Christian, others do not believe the true gospel (Though the same could be said of some protestants.)

However, Catholics, while they hold a really, really distorted view of it, still hold to Jesus as the Son of God. Same thing with Mormons. While I consider Mormonism to be a VERY, VERY messed up version of Christianity, since they do hold that one fundamental belief, it is sensible that SOME real Christians were tricked into it.

If you don't believe Jesus is the Son of God (Which the Muslims do not) you cannot be a real Christian. Period. Muslims are not Christians. And I really don't get how some of them consider Christians to be Muslims, as according to them, the Christians believe in three gods

We are all God's children.

Wrong. Only those whom he has saved.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

We can take the theological discussion elsewhere . . .

 

[Traitorfish]

I would consider this to be evidence he really was who he said he was.

Well, it certainly suggests that the man and his message have a very deep resonance with many people. If you attribute this to his divine status, then that is valid, within the context of your own faith.

You mean by Muslims or Christians?

Christ himself wasn't wrong about anything, Moses was, but not about anything that was inspired.

By Muslims, and in regards to that part of their preaching that was revealed by God. I'm given to understand that Sunni Muslims do not attribute full infallibility to individuals, and the Shi'ites only to Muhammad, his immediate descendants, and certain senior Shi'ite clerics.

Well, I've heard some people I respect say that Catholicism isn't really Christianity, but I don't really know enough about the issue. Regardless, some Catholics are certainly Christian, others do not believe the true gospel (Though the same could be said of some protestants.)

However, Catholics, while they hold a really, really distorted view of it, still hold to Jesus as the Son of God. Same thing with Mormons. While I consider Mormonism to be a VERY, VERY messed up version of Christianity, since they do hold that one fundamental belief, it is sensible that SOME real Christians were tricked into it.

If you don't believe Jesus is the Son of God (Which the Muslims do not) you cannot be a real Christian. Period. Muslims are not Christians. And I really don't get how some of them consider Christians to be Muslims, as according to them, the Christians believe in three gods

It was intended as an analogy, to demonstrate how people may agree on a fundamental point, in this case, that Jesus was the legitimate messenger of God, and disagree about elaborations therein, in this case, whether Jesus was divine or a prophet. I didn't mean to suggest that Muslims are Christians, nor am I entirely sure how you inferred that.

Wrong. Only those whom he has saved.

Now that's an ungenerous reading.

Anyway, as Erin says, let's not get too deep into the theology (because, if nothing else, neither of us are exactly experts ).

 

[GhostWriter16]

Well, it certainly suggests that the man and his message have a very deep resonance with many people. If you attribute this to his divine status, then that is valid, within the context of your own faith.

True...

By Muslims, and in regards to that part of their preaching that was revealed by God. I'm given to understand that Sunni Muslims do not attribute full infallibility to individuals, and the Shi'ites only to Muhammad, his immediate descendants, and certain senior Shi'ite clerics.

This may be right.

It was intended as an analogy, to demonstrate how people may agree on a fundamental point, in this case, that Jesus was the legitimate messenger of God, and disagree about elaborations therein, in this case, whether Jesus was divine or a prophet. I didn't mean to suggest that Muslims are Christians, nor am I entirely sure how you inferred that.

Well, some Muslims think that Christians simply follow a modified and somewhat distorted version of Islam. I've never seen a REAL Christian call Islam Christianity.

Now that's an ungenerous reading.

Well, its true

Anyway, as Erin says, let's not get too deep into the theology (because, if nothing else, neither of us are exactly experts ).

Not of other faiths anyway, I know quite a bit about my own

 

[MobBoss]

Is it an incorrect statement?

An atheist would say so.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Why on earth are you guys still discussing this?

Its a community center with a Mosque inside one part of it. If a bunch of Irish Catholics wanted to come over and do whatever you do in a community center, they could. Its for the whole community. Its not a Muslim thing.

The mosque is just a mosque. Its a place of worship. Its not a monument in memory of the hijackers who blew up the trade towers. The only thing is has to do with 9/11 is that worshipers there are of the same religion as the hijackers. Who cares.

There are other mosques in lower Manhattan too, one of them closer to the trade towers footprints. No one seems to care about them being there.

So there's no irreverence or insensitivity or whatever being shown by the building of this community center/mosque thing. The only insensitivity being shown is by the opposition, who rather blatantly conflate all of Islam with the radical nonsense of a few extremists and pretend that the opinions of people who were unlucky enough to lose someone on 9/11 should matter in a building project a decade later that just happens to be on the same island as where their relatives died.

 

[storical]

Muslims believe that Jesus did not claim to be the literal Son of God, holding it to be a literal distortion which confused his metaphorical assertion- as suggested by Jolly Roger- for his actual message. Similarly, they revere the prophets of the Old Testament, and hold it to be a valid history, but consider it to be a distortion of God's word, and so not a holy text in itself (although many hold that Islam prescribes respect for the holy texts of others).
It may also surprise you to learn that people of many religions, even those outside of the Abrahamic fold, revere Jesus. Hindus often see him as an incarnation of Krishna, while many Buddhist hold him to be a Bodhisattva (an enlightened being), some going so far as to describe him as an incarnation of Avalokiteśvara, the Buddha of compassion. Some simply see him as a sage of great wisdom, or a good person worthy of emulation. Reverence, you see, doesn't necessarily accepting the New Testament as indisputable canon.

Very interesting!

 

[Leonel]

An atheist would say so.

Is it any less true?

 

[storical]

Why on earth are you guys still discussing this?

Its a community center with a Mosque inside one part of it.

So there's no irreverence or insensitivity or whatever being shown by the building of this community center/mosque thing. The only insensitivity being shown is by the opposition, who rather blatantly conflate all of Islam with the radical nonsense of a few extremists and pretend that the opinions of people who were unlucky enough to lose someone on 9/11 should matter in a building project a decade later that just happens to be on the same island as where their relatives died.

Yes, it is a place where all faiths are welcome. When it is built I want to go see it myself. We have to move on in the right direction, and it begins with brotherhood, and peace for all. This mosque or community center, whatever you want to call it, seems to be a very good place to start going in the right direction. It will build a bridge to peace and understanding for all Americans, no matter what beliefs you have, or do not have for that matter.

I myself do not put tons of stock in religion. Because, I feel the choices a person makes each day, determines whether they are going to be a good man or woman. The choice is within you. I believe in God just not man made religion. Man made religion has been perverted countless times, and "In the name of God", was the excuse. I killed them because God told me to. If I did not, my soul is on the line, for God will punish me. Every religious denomination at one point or another has done this, it's getting old. A hospitaler knight in the movie Kingdom of Heaven, said the same basic theme. It has stuck with me since. To me it made sense.

 

[DJ Bonebraker]

Here's my general take on it:

Yes, it COULD be considered insensitive to families of 9/11 victims, and yes, Islamic terrorists DID perform the attacks, BUT:

#1: The building is NOT a Mosque.... Mosques need a Minaret to call people to prayer and a Mihrab (an alcove/altar on the wall facing towards Mecca), which Park 51 won't have... It is basically a cultural center/chapel/food court...

#2: While I believe the feelings of those who lost loved ones on 9/11 should be taken into consideration (I, myself, lost a friend and brother in arms at the Pentagon), I'm a strong believer in freedom of religion and the First Amendment, and I believe equally strongly that we shouldn't allow hate and fear to cloud our minds so that we forget that our freedoms are what truly make this nation strong.

#3: There was already at least one Muslim chapel in the WTC prior to the attack, so why not let them build a replacement?

and #4: NOT ALL MUSLIMS ARE TERRORISTS, DAMMIT! Most Muslims, based on my own experiences in various Islamic nations, are just trying to keep a job, raise their families and try to make sure they know where their next meal is coming from, just like everybody else. Believe it or not, but many Muslims in the US are actually religious refugees from MUSLIM countries... Apparently, contemporary Islam is much like early-reformation Christianity, with the various different sects and denominations fighting among themselves almost as much as they are against any "infidels"... It just makes me sad to hear Muslims in America tell me that they are afraid for their safety just because they are Muslim... This country should be a beacon of freedom, for pete's sake!

Seriously, some of the anti-mosque people remind me entirely too much of Nuremberg in 1933.... All you have to do is replace the word "Muslim" with "Jew" and "Islam" with "Judaism" to get an almost exact repeat of Hitlers rhetoric!

Basically I say let them build it, and by their actions they will prove their true intentions, whether it be to increase peace and harmony or strife and discord between Muslims and non-muslims.

I also think that so-called Christians, like Rev. Jones, who are shouting hate should take time to read their Bibles, particularly the parts where Jesus talks about love and forgiveness and the consequences for those who fail to show either towards their fellow human beings. Those who want to burn the Koran might especially want to keep in mind what the 19th century German poet, Heinrich Heine had to say: "...Where they burn books, they will ultimately burn people also."

I also have been encouraging anyone I talk to to pray and/or seriously think about the situation, so that hate does not prevail... I've been participating (both as a Sailor and US Army Civillian) for the past 9 years in a war that was started by hate and the only thing it seems to have accomplished thus far is to keep the body count rising and the cemeteries full....

The only thing that hate can accomplish is to breed more hate, so I'm going to do my best to break this cycle of hate in any way I can, and encourage others to do so as well.

Hikaro Takayama, who is a Christian.

@Storical: I also am planning to go when/if it gets built.... Especially to check out their food court (one of my fondest memories of the Middle East was the food, especially the Schwerma.... )

 

[Traitorfish]

Well, some Muslims think that Christians simply follow a modified and somewhat distorted version of Islam. I've never seen a REAL Christian call Islam Christianity.

You have to understand that "Islam" is more nuanced a term than "Christianity". It can refer both to the religion of Islam, and to the philosophical concept of Islam, which is to say the concept of "submission to God"; as such, any monotheists, and in some schools of thought, pantheists, are "Muslims", of varying degrees of purity, because they all submit themselves to God. Even Heaven Worship, a monotheistic religion which developed in Ancient China, is considered to be Islamic in this sense, because it preaches submission to God, it is simply a deeply impure version, which lacks any sort of divine revelation.

Well, its true

Well, according to yourself. Most people to not hold such a reading, and it's not necessarily a theological difference, either- the Scots are staunchly Calvinist, which would suggest they hold your view, yet gave rise to the expression "We're all Jock Tamson's bairns" (Jock Tamson being a euphemism for God), which declares exactly the same sentiment.

Not of other faiths anyway, I know quite a bit about my own

Perhaps, but a working knowledge of theology requires more than a myopically specific knowledge of a particular sect, no matter how deep and full it may be.

An atheist would say so.

As a factual statement, perhaps, but the sentiment rings true none the less.

 

[storical]

@Storical: I also am planning to go when/if it gets built.... Especially to check out their food court (one of my fondest memories of the Middle East was the food, especially the Schwerma.... )

I am glad to hear that you are. Around where I live we call it a Gyro, after the Greek variation sandwich. Although, I would love to try the traditional Schwerma. I was reading a bit about it. One thing that is very powerful in relations among people is the undeniable taste of good food. We all love it!