WTC Mosque Part Four!!!

[Cutlass]

So you are saying we should help the Taliban by showing intolerance rather than having their argument blow up in their face over our tolerance? They have been pushing the 'America is so intolerant' rhetoric in their arguments so much, it would be pretty bad for them if we allowed it. I can see the explanation now:
"I know we said America was an intolerant, Islamophobic society, but you know, they let a community center with Islamic ties be built two blocks from Ground Zero. Death to the intolerant americans?"

So, what do you want. Show the rest of the Worlds Muslims we are intolerant. Or gain the support of most the worlds Muslims and really piss off the ones who attacked us? I think the answer is pretty clear.

That's pretty much the whole argument by those who hate our American freedoms.

 

[bernie14]

So you are saying we should help the Taliban by showing intolerance rather than having their argument blow up in their face over our tolerance? They have been pushing the 'America is so intolerant' rhetoric in their arguments so much, it would be pretty bad for them if we allowed it. I can see the explanation now:
"I know we said America was an intolerant, Islamophobic society, but you know, they let a community center with Islamic ties be built two blocks from Ground Zero. Death to the intolerant americans?"

So, what do you want. Show the rest of the Worlds Muslims we are intolerant. Or gain the support of most the worlds Muslims and really piss off the ones who attacked us? I think the answer is pretty clear.

i dont happen to agree with that pov....this appeasement argument, from what i have seen, does not seem to be working in europe, actually, quite the opposite...to he point that some european countries are now passing restrictive laws on muslim customs

Has any Muslim actually used the term "victory mosque", or referred to the idea? I can't help but wonder where people've gotten this idea from.

the bari mosque, the fethiye camii, the ummayad mosque, the qutub minar, the asqa mosque, the dome of the rock, the codroba mosque, these r just to name a few....u can call them whatever u want, i am using that name because eveyone recognizes what the meaning is...whether u like it or not.....

 

[flamingzaroc121]

What he means, is has any Muslim referred to Park51 as a 'victory mosque'?

 

[Traitorfish]

the bari mosque, the fethiye camii, the ummayad mosque, the qutub minar, the asqa mosque, the dome of the rock, the codroba mosque, these r just to name a few....u can call them whatever u want, i am using that name because eveyone recognizes what the meaning is...whether u like it or not.....

No, nobody debates that "victory mosques" exist, I'm just wondering why the concept is seen as relevant. There are mosques built to mark tragedies, after all, and, for that matter, Christian churches built to mark victories (against pagans in Northern Europe and against Muslims in Southern Europe).

What he means, is has any Muslim referred to Park51 as a 'victory mosque'?

Exactly, thank you.

 

[civver_764]

If you oppose the mosque you support the Taliban:

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/08/30/taliban-says-park-51/

Sorry if this has been posted.

 

[MobBoss]

I meant Christianity-as-is, not your particular interpretation. Obviously, some churches are more interested than others, but it is not universal, and, seems, if anything, to represent a relatively small minority. The same, in my experience, is true of Islam, which, like Catholicism, is often tied heavily to a particular ethnicity or group of ethnicities.

Ah....Jesus' command to spread the gospel isnt exactly up to interpretation. That is, its not one of the 'controversial' bits that people argue over. Its pretty much a given.

Seriously, if your're going to argue about christianity, read it at least.

 

[Traitorfish]

Ah....Jesus' command to spread the gospel isnt exactly up to interpretation. That is, its not one of the 'controversial' bits that people argue over. Its pretty much a given.

Seriously, if your're going to argue about christianity, read it at least.

I'm merely reporting the actual behaviour of Christian churches, not arguing ideals. Fact is, most churches don't actively proselytise; more so in Europe than in the US, I'll grant you, but it's still the pursuit of an evangelical minority even there.

Point being, the existence of a religious establishment does not imply an active interest in proselytising, especially in a place which hosts such established ethnoreligious communities as New York. Thus, the mosque can not be fairly seen as reflect a necessary interest in proselytism, lest every other religious building- Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, whatever- be regarded with the same suspicion.

 

[bernie14]

What he means, is has any Muslim referred to Park51 as a 'victory mosque'?

i would not know...but i doubt it

 

[MobBoss]

I'm merely reporting the actual behaviour of Christian churches, not arguing ideals.

Fair enough!!

 

[Ajidica]

i dont happen to agree with that pov....this appeasement argument, from what i have seen, does not seem to be working in europe, actually, quite the opposite...to he point that some european countries are now passing restrictive laws on muslim customs

How is allowing them to follow establish legal procedures appeasement?

the bari mosque, the fethiye camii, the ummayad mosque, the qutub minar, the asqa mosque, the dome of the rock, the codroba mosque, these r just to name a few....u can call them whatever u want, i am using that name because eveyone recognizes what the meaning is...whether u like it or not.....

They are mosques. Point?

 

[bernie14]

How is allowing them to follow establish legal procedures appeasement?

from previous post......( i beleive) sharia law, no matter how "cute and furry" or extreme someone wants to view it, depends on the cleric dispensing it....how r governments going to now and in the future regulate these clerics?....or of course, since the future has always been so easily predicable, "nothing bad will happen” (wording changed since u r asking a question politely) .

also, i dont live in europe, but i havent seen any news that the vast majority of good muslims are generally speaking out more against their extreme islamic counterparts...on the contrary....

They are mosques. Point?

as they say in real estate, location, location, location

 

[Tee Kay]

Guys, this is about a mosque, not Shariah.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

How about: The number of blocks a Mosque may be build from Ground Zero should be at least the number of threads on CFC-OT about the building of that mosque?

1. Arbitrary
2. Quantifiable
3. ...
4. Sharia!

 

[useless]

Those who think Muslims all want Shariah are incredibly naive. Shariah law isn't neccessarily stoning women or gays to death, it's also living by a certain religious laws. I admit, i am ignorant of such laws, but that does not mean that Muslims would go around in death/rape squads to do "horrible things" to the non-believers. Since when did Christians in America stone people for wearing two different types of cloth? Why would you expect moderate Muslims to follow their own version of idiotic rules?

People need to get away from this idea that Islam is somehow a crueller religion then others, because it all depends on how someone interprets and acts upon their religious beliefs. One could argue that if Islam was really more pre-disposed to terrorism and violent acts, given recent events, one could also argue that Catholicism instills pedophilic teachings and intent into various people. Of course i have no evidence for this, but neither do those who believe Islam and Muslims are inherently more susceptible to terrorism and terrorist acts.

 

[El_Machinae]

ok....seriously....the taliban?...is anyone here naive enough to think that the taliban would not spin the story to fit which ever propaganda would favor them the most?.....if the mosque gets built "it is a victory mosque for islam"....if it doest get built "the evil americans r islamophobic"...

Actually, I've noticed that any spin can be given by those who oppose the mosque. There's no real point in debate once you've shown that your political opponent actually has no consistent opinion and is merely trying to rationalise their conclusion.

People implicitly want to oppress Muslim freedoms and are xenophobic towards Islam. The rest is just window dressing.

 

[Rashiminos]

Actually, I've noticed that any spin can be given by those who oppose the mosque. There's no real point in debate once you've shown that your political opponent actually has no consistent opinion and is merely trying to rationalise their conclusion.

People implicitly want to oppress Muslim freedoms and are xenophobic towards Islam. The rest is just window dressing.

The opponents had a better shot at getting their wishes before their idiotic sections decided to bring (inter)national attention to the issue. Instead it's put up or shut up time.

 

[Cutlass]

"Islam is a wonderful religion...for PEDOPHILES!"
-- web site of Rev. Bill Keller's proposed Christian Center at Ground Zero, "a Christian Response to the Muslim 'Ground Zero Mosque'"

 

[Ajidica]

from previous post......( i beleive) sharia law, no matter how "cute and furry" or extreme someone wants to view it, depends on the cleric dispensing it....

Of course. The same can be said for Christian Law. I just read an article in the paper about how the vast majority of American Muslims simply ignore large parts of the Sharia law for two main reasons:
1. Different sects have their own beliefs of what sources should be used and whose opinion is more important.
2. It is fiendishly complicated to understand. If a Priest started preaching to his congregation the opinions of Augustine, ancient Canon Law, and latin grammar, his congregation would leave out of boredom. That is similar to what teaching Sharia law heavily would be.

how r governments going to now and in the future regulate these clerics?....or of course, since the future has always been so easily predicable, "nothing bad will happen” (wording changed since u r asking a question politely) .

The same thing can happen in Christianity. Remember the Hutaree Militia back in Michigan?

also, i dont live in europe, but i havent seen any news that the vast majority of good muslims are generally speaking out more against their extreme islamic counterparts...on the contrary....

Mainly because the 'good' Muslims are law abiding citizens who don't want to make a fuss.

 

[MobBoss]

People need to get away from this idea that Islam is somehow a crueller religion then others, because it all depends on how someone interprets and acts upon their religious beliefs.

How about simply interpreting the acts of the followers of said religion?

I dont think thats unfair, do you?

One could argue that if Islam was really more pre-disposed to terrorism and violent acts, given recent events, one could also argue that Catholicism instills pedophilic teachings and intent into various people.

In all fairness, the acts of islamic terrorism, and cruelty to women far, far, FAR, outpace any issues the catholics have had with pedophile priests.

Of course i have no evidence for this, but neither do those who believe Islam and Muslims are inherently more susceptible to terrorism and terrorist acts.

All you gotta do to realize that is watch the daily news or read a paper.

 

[Traitorfish]

Those who think Muslims all want Shariah are incredibly naive. Shariah law isn't neccessarily stoning women or gays to death, it's also living by a certain religious laws. I admit, i am ignorant of such laws, but that does not mean that Muslims would go around in death/rape squads to do "horrible things" to the non-believers. Since when did Christians in America stone people for wearing two different types of cloth? Why would you expect moderate Muslims to follow their own version of idiotic rules?

Exactly. "Sharia" just means adhering to the rules of Islam, rules which- like Christianity- are open to interpretation. (More so, in fact, because of the lack of a single over-riding canonical source- most of Islamic law is not found in the Koran, but in the Hadith, of which no definitive collection is universally accepted.) For most Western Muslims, Sharia is a personal affair, much as, for most Jews, Sikhs, Christians, etc., adhering to their more religiously-motivated laws is a personal affair.

All you gotta do to realize that is watch the daily news or read a paper.

Thirty years ago, those same sources would have assured you that all Irish and British Catholics were potential terrorists, and would've had rather more evidence in the way of contemporary terrorism-by-Catholics to back it up.

Circles and fudgingg roundabouts.