WTC Mosque Part Four!!!

[Eran of Arcadia]

So . . . it appears you are opposed to this because other people are opposed to it . . .

 

[Formaldehyde]

One doesnt need to be a terrorist sympathizer to be weak on terrorism.

One who is "weak on terrorism" isn't appointed by the GWB and OBama administrations as an official spokesman on that very subject.

 

[ParkCungHee]

So . . . it appears you are opposed to this because other people are opposed to it . . .

But not opposed to being opposed to it, despite many people being opposed to being opposed to it.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

There are already over 100 mosques in the New York area.

How much more support do they need?

I don't care one little bit. It's again, irrelevant to my statement.

Again, if they were so sensitive about not being grouped with extrememists, I would expect them to be a bit more sensitive about how the rest of us feel about 9/11.

Okay. If people expected them to be more sensitive about 9/11, I would expect them to be a bit more sensitive about not grouping them with extremists. See how that works both ways? See why I find sensitivity a terrible argument? (Even if you don't agree with me, do you understand my reasoning? This is more important to me than you going: "You are right", because we both know that's not going to happen. )

And who are "the rest of us"?

Except I havent. At all.

No, you have been very careful with your phrasing. The "you" was a universal one referring to "people" used earlier in that sentence.

However, I have said, as a Christian, I have to deal with and be cognizent of situations when Christians are put in a bad light...i.e. the Rev. Ted issue. And there are plenty who view such hypocrisy as not being attributed to said individual, but to all christians in general, regardless of denomination or sect.

If I have to deal with it, why shouldnt muslims? Answer: they should.

And how do you deal with those issues?

What's the latest march against Freddie Phelps you've attended. What kind of things do you do, which you expect Muslims to do more often? Be specific please?

edit: Wait, I might have missread, but do you think it's just that people "view such hypocrisy as not being attributed to said individual, but to all christians in general, regardless of denomination or sect."?

 

[MobBoss]

Wait, so are you saying that the reason this shouldn't be built is because moderate Muslims aren't loud enough in their opposition to extremist Muslims? How on earth does that make sense? How much more do they need to do to satisfy some arbitrary requirement to be opposed enough to terrorism?

No, I am saying there would be less opposition to it if their opposition to radical islam were stronger....

If that doesnt make sense to you I dont know what to say. It does make sense to me however.

It is not pertinent, as the religion the 9/11 hijackers followed is not identical to that of the builders of this community center

Of course its pertinent, despite your unwillingness to accept that fact.

And part of the problem here is we are talking about an issue (islamic terrorism) that reaches further than just 9/11. You see different sects of Islam engaging in various acts of terrorism all over the globe, so it being not identical makes no real difference here.

We are confronted with islamic terrorism almost on a daily basis via the media. How can we not associate 'muslims' with terrorism perpetrated by 'muslims' all across the globe?

any more than your religion is identical to that of the LRA.

And yet, my religion has been associated with the LRA several times in discussion on this very forum! Seriously, thats not a good example for you to use here.

Btw, unlike Imam Rauf, I wouldnt hesistate to call the LRA a terrorist organization and advocate any use of reasonable force to stop their acts of terrorism. Pull off the kid gloves and wipe them out.

I dont hear the same thing from guys like Imam Rauf regarding islamic terrorists. At all.

Do you?

Are you able to see the difference in what I am talking about?

I repeat, the Islam of Rauf is not the Islam of bin Laden. But I suppose I will see more "cognizant choices to not admit that fact".

No, I will absolutely admit to that and then in turn say it doesnt matter one bit when guys like Rauf wont even call guys like OBL terrorists.

I don't care one little bit. It's again, irrelevant to my statement.

Of course it is if you are referencing support to 'build a mosque in NYC' as you indeed are.

What's the latest march against Freddie Phelps you've attended. What kind of things do you do, which you expect Muslims to do more often? Be specific please?

Do you really want to make this personal?

One who is "weak on terrorism" isn't appointed by the GWB and OBama administrations as an official spokesman on that very subject.

If you cant even call terrorists...'terrorists' I dont really call that being strong against terrorism....

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I wasn't aware that freedom of religion was conditional on advocating wiping out extremists of your religion.

And when I mentioned the LRA, I didn't claim your faith hadn't been compared to them, but that your faith was not identical to them (and certainly not so close as to insist you not practice your religion). So no, it was a great example.

So, to recap: you are opposed because people are opposed. Other people are opposed because they associate Rauf with radical Islam.

So no, I don;t see any good reasons for opposition.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Of course it is if you are referencing support to 'build a mosque in NYC' as you indeed are.

Alright, explain to me how the number of mosques in New York is important to this statement referring to the controversy of this mosque:

A reason to support the mosque is that it would show non-muslims actually care about the muslim's sensitivity not to be grouped with the extremists, and actually make muslim/non-muslim relations a bit better ...

Do you really want to make this personal?

I edited.

edit: Wait, I might have missread, but do you think it's just that people "view such hypocrisy as not being attributed to said individual, but to all Christians in general, regardless of denomination or sect."?

And you made it personal, not me.

However, I have said, as a Christian, I have to deal with and be cognizent of situations when Christians are put in a bad light...i.e. the Rev. Ted issue. And there are plenty who view such hypocrisy as not being attributed to said individual, but to all christians in general, regardless of denomination or sect.

If I have to deal with it, why shouldnt muslims? Answer: they should.

So, I'd be fine if you withdraw this in light of the discussion becoming too personal, but I'm not fine with you blaming me for making it personal.

 

[MobBoss]

I wasn't aware that freedom of religion was conditional on advocating wiping out extremists of your religion.

No one is being denied their freedom of religion, so you can halt that false argument right there.

And when I mentioned the LRA, I didn't claim your faith hadn't been compared to them, but that your faith was not identical to them (and certainly not so close as to insist you not practice your religion). So no, it was a great example.

But point in fact, my faith has also been associated with them by various atheists and their ad homs right on this very forum.

So, no, it wasnt a great example at all. You are free as you want to believe otherwise however. /shrug.

Seriously, Eran, I would expect you of all people to appreciate that fact, as being a Mormon, your religion is often associated with the Mormons that still practice polygamy correct? Not identical....sure....but still pretty much rolled up into the same group quite often.

So no, I don;t see any good reasons for opposition.

Then we shall just have to agree to disagree on this situation. How surprising.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

No one is being denied their freedom of religion, so you can halt that false argument right there.

If the protests succeed, then yes they will have been. If the protests fail . . . well, what is the point? And make no mistake, there are people who very much want to see the community center not get built, and don't much care about the rights of the builders.

But point in fact, my faith has also been associated with them by various atheists and their ad homs right on this very forum.

So, no, it wasnt a great example at all. You are free as you want to believe otherwise however. /shrug.

You admit that drawing a connection between yourself and the LRA is absurd and incorrect.

Congratulations, you have figured out the point I was making in regards to Rauf and bin Ladin! Now just to apply it universally . . .

Or, in other words, the fact that you and the LRA are different is a perfect example of the fact that belonging to the same religion doesn't make two sects' beliefs and practices identical.

Then we shall just have to agree to disagree on this situation. How surprising.

Note, we are not disagreeing on the actual validity of park51, but on whether there is any reason to be opposed to it . . . guess where the burden of proof lies.

 

[MobBoss]

If the protests succeed, then yes they will have been. If the protests fail . . . well, what is the point?

If the protests succeed such action on the mosque planners part would be voluntary. As such their rights are not being denied. At all. If I dont go through with something I have a right to do via my OWN CHOICE, no one is denying me my right to do so.

For example, if you were correct, and their rights indeed violated in being denied....can they go to court and sue for their consitutional rights being violated - if they voluntarily withdraw their plan?

Your premise has some serious holes in it there.

You admit that drawing a connection between yourself and the LRA is absurd and incorrect.

I admit I have to deal with it regardless.

Congratulations, you have figured out the point I was making in regards to Rauf and bin Ladin! Now just to apply it universally . . .

And you have just figured out why the mosque planners should have to deal with it just like anyone else has to. They can either appease their neighbors and be 'peacemakers' as they claim to be....or not. The choice is entirely theirs.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I admit I have to deal with it regardless.

But you shouldn't have to, right? I mean, people who make that connection are clearly incorrect, right?

And you have just figured out why the mosque planners should have to deal with it just like anyone else has to.

So if one group is treated unfairly, then to be fair we need to treat all other groups unfairly

They can either appease their neighbors and be 'peacemakers' as they claim to be....or not. The choice is entirely theirs.

Their "neighbors", in the sense of people near them, mostly support them. It's people from the other side of the country that are against this.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Well, MobBoss, for what it's worth, I do not draw any connection between you and any Christian just because you are a Christian. I can hardly judge you on the little information that this message board medium provides me. All I can do is judge a small fraction of the opinions you have and are willing to share with us here. This judgment however is in no means a judgment on you as a person since I feel I lack the qualifications for that.

Even if you have never spoken against the likes of Fred Phelps, I do not assume you agree with anything he says until you say so.

I treat Muslims, and I hope many other people the same way. Or at least I try to, since I'm no saint I can drop the ball on that principle. And I have been corrected on that a couple of times.

 

[Formaldehyde]

They can either appease their neighbors and be 'peacemakers' as they claim to be....or not. The choice is entirely theirs.

They have "appeased" their actual "neighbors" long ago when the project was approved by the city back in December. Who they haven't been able to "appease" are the handful of bigots who claimed in August that the memories of their relatives who died on 9/11 are somehow tainted by this project. I would claim such rabid intolerance isn't capable of being "appeased", nor should there ever be any desire to do so in a country which claims to have freedom of speech and religion.

 

[Atlas14]

And you have just figured out why the mosque planners should have to deal with it just like anyone else has to. They can either appease their neighbors and be 'peacemakers' as they claim to be....or not. The choice is entirely theirs.

These people are not radicals and had no connection with 9/11, unless there's something everyone is missing. They shouldn't have to appease anybody, nor sit there and justify their desire for a mosque in their desired location for anybody. They didn't do anything wrong, and should not have to bow to the protesters' insecurities and fragile sensitivities.

There's Muslims living in America, get over it.

 

[Formaldehyde]

In other words, they are being found guilty until proven innocent.

 

[Traitorfish]

There are already over 100 mosques in the New York area.

How much more support do they need?

It also has over a thousand synagogues, and more than six thousand churches. Given that Muslims make up approximately 9% of the city's population, while Christians and Jews only make up 70% and 12%, respectively, does this seem particularly disproportionate? Are we about to start tearing down this over-abundance of Judeo-Christian worship places?

 

[MobBoss]

But you shouldn't have to, right? I mean, people who make that connection are clearly incorrect, right?

No, actually, I should, and in fact, my religion dictates I should show patience, restraint and even compassion to those who do that.

You know...peacemaking.

Their "neighbors", in the sense of people near them, mostly support them. It's people from the other side of the country that are against this.

Actually, the last poll I saw that covered all of NYC also indicated opposition to the mosque.

 

[civver_764]

Imam Rauf wont even use the word 'terrorist' in describing world recognized terrorist groups/organizations. Not exactly what I would call 'hard' let alone confrontational on such groups.

So people who don't use the right adjectives aren't allowed to build stuff? Why do they have to even mention them in the first place?

Do you even realize how absurd your argument is?

And Hezbollah are not a terrorist organization.

 

[Formaldehyde]

No, actually, I should, and in fact, my religion dictates I should show patience, restraint and even compassion to those who do that.

You know...peacemaking.

Is that how you would characterize those Christians who are so vehemently opposed to this construction project? Peacemakers? Turning the other cheek? Doing unto others as they would have others do to them?

 

[Brian Shanahan]

In other words, they are being found guilty until proven innocent.

Oh, but they are guilty, they're muslims living in America. Why would they come here if not to blow up American landmarks and kill upstanding Americans in the name of intolerance and bigotry. Just like us Tadhgs who went to England back in the '80's.


Or well that at least is what the opinion of the antis looks like any time they try to talk about this thing.