You say "Strategic bombing", I say "War Crime"

RedWolf

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This is an interesting article discussing Israel's actions in Lebanon and the apparent lack of military value the attacks have.

It categorizes the boming as "Strategic Bombing" and goes on to define this as: "Classic strategic bombardment campaigns aim to flatten key economic resources and are usually designed to bend the targeted government to the will of its attacker or turn the populace against the government".

We've debated back and forth about the the morality of "collateral damage" and I admit there is some grey area here (In the past I've called it at least criminal negligence).

However the military analysts here are essentially admitting that these strikes are intended not to destroy Hezbollah but to collectively punish the civilian population by destroying infrastructure and thus turning the people against the organization.

When this becomes the case it tends to move away from "negligence" and moves more into the realm of 1st degree murder (not unlike the rockets being fired by Hezbollah of course - however if you want to compare the rockets are murdering far LESS people)

Military analysts question Israeli bombing

DUBAI, United Arab Emirates - Thousands of Israeli bombs have fallen on Lebanese homes, roads, bridges, ports, broadcasting towers and even a lighthouse.

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Nearly 300 people, mainly civilians, have been killed, Lebanon's prime minister said.

Analysts say Israel's targeting of civilian and government infrastructure overshadows its strikes on the offices and rocket launchers of Hezbollah guerrillas, whose capture of two Israeli soldiers triggered the attacks.

"This is a classic strategic bombing campaign," said Stephen Biddle, a former head of military studies at the U.S. Army War College now at the Council on Foreign Relations. "What the Israelis are trying to do is pressure others into solving their problem for them, hence the targeting of civilian infrastructure."

But the growing list of civilian casualties — despite Israel's use of U.S.-designed precision-guided bombs — could turn Arabs and others against the Jewish state and its key ally, the U.S., and still not fatally wound Hezbollah, said military analysts.

Israeli Cabinet ministers have said the bombing aims to punish Lebanon and make the government understand the entire country will suffer if Hezbollah — which operates freely in the south — isn't reined in.

But Israeli military spokesman Capt. Jacob Dallal said Wednesday that Israel's bombing targets have direct military significance, since Hezbollah uses roads to transport its rockets and stores them in houses.

"A lot of the rockets are stored in people's homes in urban areas, fired from within villages and brought in from the Damascus-Beirut highway," Dallal said. "We are in day eight and the present condition of Hezbollah is unlike it was on day one. There's no comparison, their infrastructure, their weaponry have all been degraded considerably."

Classic strategic bombardment campaigns aim to flatten key economic resources and are usually designed to bend the targeted government to the will of its attacker or turn the populace against the government.

The United States has been one of the chief proponents of strategic bombardment, launching campaigns in Vietnam, Iraq and Serbia. In World War II it targeted factories, railroads, bridges, ports and, in some cases, residential neighborhoods.

James Dobbins, a former Bush administration envoy to Afghanistan who now heads military analysis for the Rand Corp., said choice of targets by Israel was the key and may be misdirected.

"The military rationale seems rather thin, since many of the targets have no conceivable relationship to Hezbollah," he said.

Hezbollah has little visible presence and few links to Lebanon's military. It is skilled at cloaking its actions from Israeli sensors, while its primitive rockets — which have also killed innocents — are fired from easy-to-hide mobile launchers. Their lack of a guidance system leaves them without a traceable electronic signature, said Mustafa Alani, a military analyst with Dubai-based Gulf Research Center.

"The Israelis face their classic problem: They cannot punish Hezbollah, which has no physical structure to destroy," Alani said.

Instead, Israel is bombing Hezbollah's Shiite Muslim power base, leveling villages and office and apartment blocks in Shiite neighborhoods in the eastern Bekaa Valley, southern Lebanon and south Beirut.

Dallal said the Israeli military bombs civilian buildings or homes if intelligence points to a Hezbollah office or munitions on the site.

"If there is a rocket stored in an apartment building and we attack the apartment in the building in which it is stored," he said. "We have the right to attack because of the missile."

The Brookings Institution's Michael O'Hanlon said the Israeli campaign most closely resembles the U.S.-led NATO bombardment of Serbia in 1999, in which a victory was achieved without a land invasion.

But the 78-day NATO bombardment of Serbia had clear international legitimacy and was more gradual. Air crews targeted Serbian military and communications sites first, and when that didn't persuade the Serb military to pull out of Kosovo, planes hit civilian and government targets.

Targeting was far more discriminatory. Despite tens of thousands of sorties, NATO is thought to have killed 500 civilians in the 2- 1/2 month campaign. By contrast, Israel has killed more than 250 Lebanese in eight days.

And the Serbian actions that triggered NATO's airstrikes were far larger than anything launched from Lebanon, Dobbins said.

"The Serbian government was responsible for the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo that drove a million people from their homes," Dobbins said, "while the Lebanese government is not responsible for the rocket attacks upon Israel."

The government, however, has been unable to fulfill a U.N. directive that Hezbollah be disarmed and that government forces take control of southern Lebanon.

Israel has also chosen to hit targets that the United States would probably reject, because of the danger of killing civilians, said Michele Flournoy, a former Pentagon strategist now with the Center for Strategic and International Studies.

U.S. war planners realize their campaigns lose international and domestic support when innocents are killed, Flournoy said.

"Our own population is very discriminating in the use of force. People here have bought into the idea of proportionality and the just war," Flournoy said.

For Israel, "it's a balancing act," Flournoy said. "They want to use enough force to get through to the terrorists, while at the same time staying within international norms, so as not to become a pariah."

Israel's history, however, has produced a defense posture that views its enemies as fundamental and existential threats to the country's very survival.

"The airports and bridges don't belong to Hezbollah," Alani said. "People may understand their (Israeli) reactions for the first few days. But world leaders will soon say 'we don't see any links between your attacks and the threat you face.'"

___

AP Correspondent Lara Sukhtian in Jerusalem contributed to this report.
 
But the growing list of civilian casualties — despite Israel's use of U.S.-designed precision-guided bombs — could turn Arabs and others against the Jewish state

:lol: Like they aren't already.
 
Strategic bombing has been around as long as bombers have. The idea of strategic bombing is to destroy 'strategic' targets such as industrial and economic targets which are typically owned and run by civillians. Tactical airstrikes are designed to hit military targets for a short term advantage no civillians.

I have nothing against strategic bombing in and of itself however I think that in short term non-nationalistic wars like the one between Isreal and Lebanon it makes little sense to run a strategic bombing campaign. I a drawn out war like ww2 however it makes perfect sense and is a good idea.

As for "war criminals" the entie idea of a war criminal is propaganda and an excuse to execute the leaders of our enemies regardless of whether or not they commited any "crimes against humanity" in other words the "laws of warfare" are nothing more than a dream that will be forgotten when the foirst bombs drop.
 
Well, I tend to think the message Israel is sending is a valid message. That message is take responsibility for what happens in your country or suffer the consequences.

I mean come on, Hezbollah drives entire CONVOYs of rocket equipped trucks around Lebanon for use against Isreal. And the Lebanese government turns a blind eye to it. Should they be held accountable? Of course they should.

As for the bombing campaign itself I said days ago that it looked to me like they were prepping for an invasion. When you hit bridges, major roads, communications and power grids, thats what you are prepping to do. Fairly standard actually.

Is it a "war crime"? Nope....at least not in my opinion. Those types of targets are valid military targets. Now if they were deliberately targeting schools, churches/mosques, hospitals you would have an arguement.
 
MobBoss said:
Is it a "war crime"? Nope....at least not in my opinion. Those types of targets are valid military targets. Now if they were deliberately targeting schools, churches/mosques, hospitals you would have an arguement.

Collective civilian punishment is by it's definition a crime.
 
Hezbollah stores their arsenal in civilian buildings. What do you think about that war crime, Red?
 
rmsharpe said:
Hezbollah stores their arsenal in civilian buildings. What do you think about that war crime, Red?

I don't deny that...

Yet again - one wrong does not make another wrong right. Very simply logic really.

Might make you FEEL justified.. but doens't make it RIGHT. There is a difference.
 
Bright day
Mobboss- so why bomb dairy farm run by a christian?
 
No nation that tolerates terrorism of any sort gets one drop of sympathy from me. None. I consider Islam as a whole to be far too tolerant of terrorism. Either they start cleaning up their own stinking back yards or the US and Israel will do it for them. Kill them. Kill them all. Only then will the world become "civilized".
Moderator Action: Trolling - warned. With have little tolerance for people who advocate genocide - warned.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
"If there is a rocket stored in an apartment building and we attack the apartment in the building in which it is stored," he said. "We have the right to attack because of the missile."
They're actually right on this one, Red. It's Hezbollah's responsibility to store their weapons and/or create their military facilities away from civilian population centers - if they build a command center with high-level Hamas officers in a house in the middle of a residential district, Israel has every right to blow it up. (Trying to minimize civilian casualties, of course - but sadly, some are to be expected.)

Do you have proof that Israel is striking non-Hezbollah related targets, just for kicks or out of sheer maliciousness? Even the strike at the Beirut airport was understandable - that airport has been used for years to bring in weapons for Hezbollah, and Israel couldn't have it running and bringing in more weapons while they're trying to destroy Hezbollah and all their weapon stores.
 
manwiththehands said:
No nation that tolerates terrorism of any sort gets one drop of sympathy from me. None. I consider Islam as a whole to be far too tolerant of terrorism. Either they start cleaning up their own stinking back yards or the US and Israel will do it for them. Kill them. Kill them all. Only then will the world become "civilized".

That's a usefull (racist) opinion. Thanks.
 
manwiththehands said:
No nation that tolerates terrorism of any sort gets one drop of sympathy from me. None. I consider Islam as a whole to be far too tolerant of terrorism. Either they start cleaning up their own stinking back yards or the US and Israel will do it for them. Kill them. Kill them all. Only then will the world become "civilized".

How exactly are muslims threathening world peace more than US for example?
 
I mean come on, Hezbollah drives entire CONVOYs of rocket equipped trucks around Lebanon for use against Isreal. And the Lebanese government turns a blind eye to it. Should they be held accountable? Of course they should.

I think the Lebanese government has turned a blind eye because Lebanon has just got itself out of civil war and doesn't want another one to start. Last time it was PLO, this time it's Hezbollah.

Is it a "war crime"? Nope....at least not in my opinion. Those types of targets are valid military targets. Now if they were deliberately targeting schools, churches/mosques, hospitals you would have an arguement.

I saw on the news that a toilet paper factory had been bmbed out. I don't understand how this is a "valid military target".

No nation that tolerates terrorism of any sort gets one drop of sympathy from me. None. I consider Islam as a whole to be far too tolerant of terrorism. Either they start cleaning up their own stinking back yards or the US and Israel will do it for them. Kill them. Kill them all. Only then will the world become "civilized".

I struggle to see why people think that underground armies are terrorists and state armies are legal. They all do the same thing- kill people. Military and civilian targets, it doesn't matter. If killing military targets isn't terrorism, and killing civilian ones is, (as is your logic) then the following organisations must be terrorist:
-RAF (diliberate civilian bombing WW2)
-USAF (ditto)
-Luftwaffe (ditto)
-US Army (certain incidents in Vietnam, Korea)
-UK Army (colonialism)
-French Army (Algeria)
...... and virtually every other state army that's been involved in a major war- ever.

Both sides are wrong. Neither is right.
 
"could turn Arabs and others against the Jewish state"

This makes it sound like all of Israel's Arab allies are fair-weather friends. Of course Syria and Egypt will stand strong with their Hebrew brothers!
 
Gladi said:
Bright day
Mobboss- so why bomb dairy farm run by a christian?

Could be a variety of things. Bad intel maybe? Targeting error? Who knows?

Why do you automatically assume it was intentional?
 
moggydave said:
I think the Lebanese government has turned a blind eye because Lebanon has just got itself out of civil war and doesn't want another one to start. Last time it was PLO, this time it's Hezbollah.

NOT a valid excuse to allow terrorist attacks to occur from your country.

I saw on the news that a toilet paper factory had been bmbed out. I don't understand how this is a "valid military target".

Once more, it could have been error...they could have had intel that something other than toilet paper was stored there. Who knows?

I struggle to see why people think that underground armies are terrorists and state armies are legal. They all do the same thing- kill people.

The point is, Isreal is not in the habit of lobbing rockets at Lebanon for giggles like hezbollah does at Isreal. They have a right to defend themselves and they are fed up with it. I would be too.

Both sides are wrong. Neither is right.

I disagree. A country has a right to protect its citizens from terrorism.
 
MobBoss said:
Could be a variety of things. Bad intel maybe? Targeting error? Who knows?

Well if it was bad intel or targeting we're back at criminal negligence... Take your pick.

MobBoss said:
Why do you automatically assume it was intentional?

Same reason you assume it was not. :)
 
moggydave said:
I struggle to see why people think that underground armies are terrorists and state armies are legal.

People don't just think that. It's a common accepted position among the international community.

Your "underground armies" are actually sanctioned by governments (Iran, Syria to name two) who deny their support because they understand they would, in theory, be internationally rebuked for it.
 
MobBoss said:
I disagree. A country has a right to protect its citizens from terrorism.

And a people have a right to self government without being occupied and opressed by a foreign power.

But it doesn't make Hamas' murder of innocent Israeli's any more justified.

That's the crux of this matter for me - you can't have different rules based on who's "right" because everyone figures their side is right. From a moral perspective something is either right or wrong... You can't claim - "You can't attack civilian targets in order to collectively punish a population but YOU can because I think your cause is more righteous this time"
 
"You can't attack civilian targets in order to collectively punish a population but YOU can because I think your cause is more righteous this time"

This is why I don't kill people in an attempt to convince them to chase drug dealers from their neighbourhood.
 
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