YOU'RE FIRED!

[Arwon]

Man, imagine protesting during a national anthem

And this was during a major international event with other countries attending, not just some run-of-the-mill regular season domestic sporting game.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

^^^
I think what they mean is: USA no.1, YEAH....

 

[Arwon]

Er. No.

 

[innonimatu]

Nope. Kneeling for the anthem is mostly being a jerk and standing is way of showing respect to the highest ideals ones country represents.

Standing for the anthem, in this case, is showing respect for the money the boss is collecting from the state to make that display of "patriotism".

Does a "liberated individual" see no problem with this?

 

[JollyRoger]

You think it is politically incorrect to protest during a tune written for these lyrics?

To Anacreon in Heav'n, where he sat in full Glee,
A few Sons of Harmony sent a Petition,
That he their Inspirer and Patron would be;
When this answer arriv'd from the Jolly Old Grecian
"Voice, Fiddle, and Flute,
"no longer be mute,
"I'll lend you my Name and inspire you to boot,
"And, besides I'll instruct you, like me, to intwine
"The Myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's Vine."
2
The news through Olympus immediately flew;
When Old Thunder pretended to give himself Airs.
"If these Mortals are suffer'd their Scheme to persue,
"The Devil a Goddess will stay above Stairs.
"Hark! already they cry,
"In transports of Joy,
"Away to the Sons of Anacreon we'll fly,[31]
"And there, with good Fellows, we'll learn to intwine
"The Myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's Vine.
3
"The Yellow-Hair'd God and his nine fusty Maids,
"From Helicon's banks will incontinent flee,[32]
"Idalia will boast but of tenantless Shades,
"And the bi-forked Hill a mere Desart will be
"My Thunder no fear on't,
"Shall soon do it's Errand,
"And dam'me! I'll swinge the Ringleaders, I warrant.
"I'll trim the young Dogs, for thus daring to twine
"The Myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's Vine."
4
Apollo rose up, and said, "Pry'thee ne'er quarrel,
"Good King of the Gods, with my Vot'ries below:
"Your Thunder is useless"—then shewing his Laurel,
Cry'd "Sic evitabile fulmen,[33] you know!
"Then over each head
"My Laurels I'll spread;
"So my Sons from your Crackers no Mischief shall dread,
"Whilst snug in their Club-Room, they jovially twine
"The Myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's Vine."
5
Next Momus got up with his risible Phiz,
And swore with Apollo he'd chearfully join—
"The full Tide of Harmony still shall be his,
"But the Song, and the Catch, and the Laugh shall be mine.
"Then, Jove, be not jealous
"Of these honest fellows."
Cry'd Jove, "We relent, since the Truth you now tell us;
"And swear by Old Styx, that they long shall intwine
"The Myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's Vine."
6
Ye Sons of Anacreon, then join Hand in Hand;
Preserve Unanimity, Friendship, and Love!
'Tis your's to support what's so happily plann'd;
You've the sanction of Gods, and the Fiat of Jove.
While thus we agree,
Our Toast let it be.
May our Club flourish happy, united, and free!
And long may the Sons of Anacreon intwine
The Myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's Vine.

 

[FriendlyFire]

I'm not offended. I think it's hilarious, and I think you guys should do more of this. This is the kind of thing that pushes people to the right.

LMAO, Thats what we said under eight years of Obama
When the right was spewing a mountain of BS, and boy did we get a wake up call.

Here you go.

Click bait title
/meh disappointing was expecting more tin foil content

 

[Commodore]

Just saw a poll that shows 62% of NFL fans claim they will watch fewer games and purchase less merchandise specifically because of these anthem protests. Basically, NFL fans are going to protest the protest. Now whether or not those 62% make good on that threat is another question altogether, it does point to a potential crisis for the NFL. Losing 62% of your fan base can only spell disaster for the league. Especially since those who support these protests are only supporting it for the social issue it stands for. Otherwise, those people aren't the type that typically frequent NFL events or purchase their merchandise, so it's not like the NFL will be able to replace the 62% of their fan base they are alienating by allowing these protests to continue.

It's okay though. These entitled little rich kids (that's essentially what these players are acting like) will learn just how much this country does not support what they are doing. I've already been seeing articles about how businesses in cities with NFL teams are refusing service to NFL players and coaches that don't stand for the anthem.

yeah well this latest controversy sure exposes that to be a fraud and a farce doesn't it?

Not really. It's more of when I pay for a ticket to an NFL game, I'm paying to be entertained, not to have someone's political message shoved in my face. So again, it's not the cause that's being opposed, it's the methodology. Not to mention, they are protesting at their place of employment. As professional athletes, the playing field is their office/workstation and they are on company time the moment they arrive at the stadium on game day. If I did what they did at my job while on company time (by "did what they did" I mean protesting in general since obviously the national anthem isn't played at the beginning of each shift), I'd be fired immediately, and rightfully so because the workplace is supposed to be a professional environment where the business at hand is supposed to be the focus.

So again, Goodell has no obligation whatsoever to impose fines or anything else and is completely within his rights to ignore the Steelers actions if he so chooses.

As commissioner of the league though, he has an obligation to protect the interests of the league. Right now, these protests are threatening the financially stability, and thus the future success, of the league as a whole. So while he may be following his conscience on this matter, he is failing in his responsibility to the league by allowing this to continue.

Now where is all that fire and passion for the free speech rights of the NFL players??

Who here is opposing their right to free speech? No one here has said NFL players shouldn't be allowed to express themselves. People are only expressing disagreement with the methodology and expressing their own opinions on the matter. Are you going to try to sell the idea that disagreement and expressing a counter opinion is akin to opposing one's right to free speech? If you are, then I'd say it is you that is trying to oppose free speech.

And plus, firing someone or imposing some other disciplinary action on them in general over their political opinion is not a violation of Constitutional rights unless the employer is a government agency or holds a government contract. The Constitution guarantees your right to free speech, but there's nothing in there about a right to a job.

 

[JollyRoger]

That 62% has had over a year and yet they still fill the stadiums and watch the games.

 

[Arwon]

Well, except for the Chargers.

 

[Arwon]

Not really. It's more of when I pay for a ticket to an NFL game, I'm paying to be entertained, not to have someone's political message shoved in my face. So again, it's not the cause that's being opposed, it's the methodology. Not to mention, they are protesting at their place of employment. As professional athletes, the playing field is their office/workstation and they are on company time the moment they arrive at the stadium on game day. If I did what they did at my job while on company time (by "did what they did" I mean protesting in general since obviously the national anthem isn't played at the beginning of each shift), I'd be fired immediately, and rightfully so because the workplace is supposed to be a professional environment where the business at hand is supposed to be the focus.

At my workplace I'm not paid to participate in public political rituals, whereas the implication from you here is that compulsory patriotic displays are part of the job description here as opposed to, you know, playing football. There's a lot about being a footballer which is a bit atypical, as far as employment goes (having a strong union for instance), so I'm not sure what parts of the analogy work terribly well.

And plus, firing someone or imposing some other disciplinary action on them in general over their political opinion is not a violation of Constitutional rights unless the employer is a government agency or holds a government contract. The Constitution guarantees your right to free speech, but there's nothing in there about a right to a job.

Yeah but that's not a good thing. In practice, bosses are one of the biggest enemies of freedom around unless prevented from being so. Some stuff in some jobs must of course be fireable (though there is still such a thing as due process), but having absolutely no checks on the ability of bosses to threaten your livelihood over political expression isn't exactly a freedom-maximising policy setting.

I mean, get a gri[p, everyone. We're talking about people silently and merely not standing up during a country's national anthem which is, for some reason, played before the start of every single domestic sporting league match. They're doing it because they feel that the country the song represents isn't living up to its ideals, due to all the racist murders carried out by agents of the state and said state's indifference. Which is a pretty reasonable grievance.

That's an incredibly mild bit of expression and the way people are freaking out over it is bizarre, misplaced, and more than a little bit authoritarian. If this exact same sequence of events were taking place with, say, soccer matches in a random other country with a problematic historical ethnic division fuelled by present day inequality and grievance, we'd all be tut-tutting the privileging of majority nationalist pride over justice for a marginalised and victimised minority.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Black woman has something to say on NFL:

Moderator Action: This is spam and you know it. ~ Arakhor
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[FriendlyFire]

Just saw a poll that shows 62% of NFL fans claim they will watch fewer games and purchase less merchandise specifically because of these anthem protests. Basically, NFL fans are going to protest the protest. Now whether or not those 62% make good on that threat is another question altogether, it does point to a potential crisis for the NFL. Losing 62% of your fan base can only spell disaster for the league. Especially since those who support these protests are only supporting it for the social issue it stands for. Otherwise, those people aren't the type that typically frequent NFL events or purchase their merchandise, so it's not like the NFL will be able to replace the 62% of their fan base they are alienating by allowing these protests to continue.

It's okay though. These entitled little rich kids (that's essentially what these players are acting like) will learn just how much this country does not support what they are doing. I've already been seeing articles about how businesses in cities with NFL teams are refusing service to NFL players and coaches that don't stand for the anthem.

Worse come to Worse Commodore, they can just put up conferdate and Neo nazi flags and have the NFL players stand while playing Germany Uber Alles
Problem SOLVED !!!!

At the moment though people are pretty angry and focus on the NFL how long do you reckon these umm fans and the US public with short attention spans are going to really stir this entire kneeing issue anyways ?
How soon before we are onto the next scandle that the Trump administration, or another dumb Trump tweet, or Trump doing something dumb and this will be forgotten ?
On the other hand it NFL could face a different backlash if they now back down and make NFL players stand again, this time from the other fans

I doubt the rating slump is going to last long, given the US obession with Football give it a year at most until the complaining and whining die down.

Hell Americans barely even care or pay attention to afghanistan any more.

 

[Commodore]

whereas the implication from you here is that compulsory patriotic displays are part of the job description here as opposed to, you know, playing football.

It's not an implication from me, it's explicitly stated in the NFL Game Operations Manual. That means when players agree to play in the NFL, they are agreeing to abide by all of its policies as well.

Yeah but that's not a good thing. In practice, bosses are one of the biggest enemies of freedom around unless prevented from being so. Some stuff in some jobs must of course be fireable (though there is still such a thing as due process), but having absolutely no checks on the ability of bosses to threaten your livelihood over political expression isn't exactly a freedom-maximising policy setting.

Freedom of association. Employers have that freedom just as individuals do, which means if they don't want people of certain political leanings to work for and represent their company, they are free to make that choice. To say that an employer can't fire someone for their political leanings is to take away their freedom of association because you are forcing them to employ someone they don't want to. At that point you have a situation where the law is not applying equally to everyone in society and that is much more of a threat to freedom than employers being able to fire employees at will.

I doubt the rating slump is going to last long, given the US obession with Football give it a year at most.

You forget that we also have college football as well. College games have already seen a bit of an uptick in their TV ratings that seems to coincide with the drop in ratings the NFL is experiencing. College football has slowly started to eclipse the NFL in popularity for years now and this little hiccup might finally provide the final boost college football needs to push themselves over the NFL as the US's primary source of football-related entertainment.

Worse come to Worse Commodore, they can just put up conferdate and Neo nazi flags and have the NFL players stand while playing Germany Uber Alles

Oh yeah I forgot, loving your country is now apparently equal to being a Nazi now. It couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact that some of us gave up the best years of our lives (and in some cases actually gave our lives) to this country while these entitled little brats spit on it. It's pretty sad when I encountered Iraqis during my deployment that loved and appreciated the US more than a lot of US citizens do.

For me, it's really the complete lack of perspective these players have that bothers me so much. They think because they had to grow up in poverty (or at least what passes for poverty in the US) that they know what struggle is. They also think that just because they sweat during their workouts and practices that they've put in a "hard day's work." There are literally billions of people throughout the world who would do anything to live what is considered an "impoverished" life in the US and they would certainly do anything to get paid millions of dollars to play a game for a living. And that's what these players don't understand. They don't understand just how bad things truly can be in this world and, thus, don't understand just how good they have it here in the US. I didn't understand it until I was face to face with it every single day for a year. Pre-Iraq me would have completely supported this protest because pre-Iraq me had zero understanding of the world outside of western civilization.

 

[Zkribbler]

These entitled little rich kids (that's essentially what these players are acting like) will learn just how much this country does not support what they are doing.

Protesting against civil rights violations and demanding equal rights under the law?! O the horror!

 

[Zkribbler]

Here is the rule....at least according to an unofficial site:

During the National Anthem, players on the field and bench area should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking. The home team should ensure that the American flag is in good condition. It should be pointed out to players and coaches that we continue to be judged by the public in this area of respect for the flag and our country. Failure to be on the field by the start of the National Anthem may result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violations of the above, including first offenses.”

Notice the use of the word "should" instead of "must." According to DifferenceBetween.Net:

“Should” is the past tense of “shall.” “Should” is used to denote recommendations, advice, or to talk about what is generally right or wrong within the permissible limits of society. For instance:

• You should chew your food properly.
• We should respect our parents.
• You should stop smoking.
• You must clean our car regularly.

In all these statements, there is a probability or recommendation of some kind.

“Must” is used to talk about an obligation or a necessity. It is used when people are compelled to do something. For instance:

• You must clean the house as your mom is not well.

Here, it is imperative that you clean the house or else the house won’t be cleaned and remain untidy.

• We must obey the law.

This statement compels us to abide by the law or we will have to face the punishment enforced by the law.

That is, the NFL recommends players stand. However, my argument is undercut somewhat because penalties are provided for. However most notably, one penalty is the loss of draft choices. It is teams, not players, who have draft choices. Thus this rule applies to teams, not players.

 

[Arwon]

Freedom of association. Employers have that freedom just as individuals do, which means if they don't want people of certain political leanings to work for and represent their company, they are free to make that choice. To say that an employer can't fire someone for their political leanings is to take away their freedom of association because you are forcing them to employ someone they don't want to. At that point you have a situation where the law is not applying equally to everyone in society and that is much more of a threat to freedom than employers being able to fire employees at will.

That's pretty facile in a society where people have to work to eat and have shelter (and in your country they even tie healthcare to selling one's labour).

At-will employment is in practical terms one of the bigger sources of tyranny in the United States and I'm extremely glad we have actual industrial relations regulations and protections against unfair dismissal. Bosses can do just fine without that level of "freedom of association" if they want to take advantage of operating in a society with, like, laws protecting their property and assets and the currency they use.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Oh yeah I forgot, loving your country is now apparently equal to being a Nazi now. It couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact that some of us gave up the best years of our lives (and in some cases actually gave our lives) to this country while these entitled little brats spit on it. It's pretty sad when I encountered Iraqis during my deployment that loved and appreciated the US more than a lot of US citizens do.

For me, it's really the complete lack of perspective these players have that bothers me so much. They think because they had to grow up in poverty (or at least what passes for poverty in the US) that they know what struggle is. They also think that just because they sweat during their workouts and practices that they've put in a "hard day's work." There are literally billions of people throughout the world who would do anything to live what is considered an "impoverished" life in the US and they would certainly do anything to get paid millions of dollars to play a game for a living. And that's what these players don't understand. They don't understand just how bad things truly can be in this world and, thus, don't understand just how good they have it here in the US. I didn't understand it until I was face to face with it every single day for a year. Pre-Iraq me would have completely supported this protest because pre-Iraq me had zero understanding of the world outside of western civilization.

So its not that they are kneeing during the national anthem or that they are protesting during the game and bringing poltics into sports
Its that they are dis-respecting America, Veterans after being given such wealth and oppotunities. Its one of those unwritten cultural rules well one more that is being broken in the time of Trumpism but this dose make a lot of sense

The fact America has two football leagues is a testimony to your obession with Football
Dont worry it seems that this kneeing business to spreading as well.

 

[AdrienIer]

The US only has one football league : the MLS

 

[Arwon]

Wow I missed all that "black people ahould be grateful" stuff.

Eww, man. Eww.

 

[Commodore]

Thus this rule applies to teams, not players.

Which is why I said the Steelers should face punishment since they collectively, as a team, chose to violate that rule by staying in the tunnel. The funny thing is, when the Steelers saw the backlash they were getting from their own fans, they showed how cowardly they really are by backtracking and saying they were only doing it as a compromise between those that wanted to kneel and those that didn't. No, they did it as a form of protest and when they saw the negative reaction to their protest they tried to spin it to do damage control.

And the rule most certainly applies to players, coaches, and teams. You mention the draft pick penalty and how that can't be applied to players. Well, the rule also says suspension is a penalty for violations as well, and just as a player can't lose draft picks, a team cannot be suspended. That is a penalty for individual players. Also, even if we say individual players cannot be targeted under this rule, teams can certainly be punished for the actions of individuals since it is each team's responsibility to ensure their players are in compliance with all NFL rules and regulations.

Protesting against civil rights violations and demanding equal rights under the law?! O the horror!

What civil rights violations would those be? Oh I forgot, apparently a cop is violating someone's civil rights when they are forced to shoot a thug who violently assaults them and tries to take the cop's weapon. #HandsUpDontShoot

What these fools and those who support them fail to see (again due to their lack of perspective) is that this supposed problem is not nearly as prevalent as it is portrayed. Civil rights violations that occur in the US are very few and far between, so much so that they can firmly be considered anomalies and not indicative of the norm in the US. And really, the media is to blame for how out of proportion this whole thing has been blown. One civil rights violation? Every media outlet runs with it and makes it front page news. However, they seem to be conveniently silent about the hundreds upon hundreds of other interactions between citizens and police that take place every single day without a single civil rights violation taking place.

That's pretty facile in a society where people have to work to eat and have shelter (and in your country they even tie healthcare to selling one's labour).

Sure, people have to work to eat, but they aren't forced to work for a single company. You get fired for your politics at one company, go find one that won't fire you for your politics. There are plenty of employers around. Not to mention, the so-called "gig economy" is making it easier and easier for people to strike out on their own and make money without some boss lording over them. You'd have a point if there was one mega-corporation that everyone absolutely had to work for, but since that's not the case and people have plenty of options as to who they work for, your point doesn't really stand.

Wow I missed all that "black people ahould be grateful" stuff.

It's a good thing that's not what I said. Like, at all. It's okay though, I know you have an insatiable need to portray anyone who disagrees with you as a racist so you are incapable of reading posts objectively.

The fact America has two football leagues is a testimony to your obession with Football

Your lack of American knowledge is showing. We have multiple leagues for every sport that's played in this country. In fact, football is the sport with the least amount of leagues out of all the major sports played in the US.