The Nile Gift - scenario creation thread

LouLong · Sep 5, 2005

This thread concerns the creation of a small scenario centered on Egypt.

I will try to keep that first post updated with the infos when the scenario advances, people join in the team and to keep the project tasks precise.
Regarding me, it does not mean at all I stop working on my other scenario projects.

Idea: to create a small and playable bronze age scenario about one of the leading cultures of the world then : Egypt. Its specificities can make for original gameplay and it is a way of using the beautiful set of units created by Kinboat (they exist, so let's use them) and Utahjazz (for neighboring civs).

Topic : Egypt

Time : From the second Intermediate Period to the Hatchepsut (roughly, precise times not chosen yet).

Team : Arne, Loulong, the Last Conformist, MaisseArsouye

Resources :
- Pharaoh's game conversions by Supa : http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=128069 Thank you Supa !

Project Tasks (PT) :
Red - current active taks
Green - Tasks completed
Black : possible tasks and future tasks

1/ Choose the Time and therefore the historical topic, civilizations...

MaisseArsouye · Sep 5, 2005

I see five major time possibilities :
- unification of Egypt
- Hatchepsout-Touthmosis
- Akhenaton ( maybe too unique )
- Ramses II
- helenic times ( Cleopatra, Ptolmys )

I have to admit Ramses II would be my favourite.

I allready made a map of Egypt but I could do a new one because this scenario sounds very interesting

JuuL · Sep 5, 2005

My favorite is also Ramesses II. That would be cool...
- the Hittites would be a challenging enemy... bronze vs. iron (the Battle of Kadesh would also be interesting... Egyptian army against a well-defended Barricade on the other side of a river...)
- While Ramesses ruled there was also a rebellion in Nubia. There's nothing like a war on two fronts.
- Lots of wonders to built: Abu Simbel, the expansion of the temple in Thebes etc. - not to mention the city of Pi-Ramesses
- Some believe that Ramesses was the Pharaoh who would not let Moses and his people leave Egypt (could be interesting...)
- Ramesses II ruled for 66 years, that's plenty of time to have a great game (specially if you only have one to three months per turn).

For inspiration, try reading Christian Jacq's 5 books about Ramesses II (the story is fictional, but Jacq is an Eqyptologist so they are based on correct historical information).

LouLong · Sep 5, 2005

Here is a proposition of the map. It can be increased or decreased (less likely) very easily.

Size : 40 X 80
Main features :
-Nile can be sailed, albeit there are many blockades for cities which can then be used as both canals and land bridges. The cataracts cannot be passed.
Other possibility, use capturable immobile ferries.
- The map focuses on Egypt, Nubia and Syria with Midianite Arabs and areas for desert Lybians. Kyrenaica is not on the map. Fayum is represented.

LouLong · Sep 5, 2005

I have also made a small list of units that we can use (of course they depend on the time chosen) :
- Egyptian Warrior (Kinboat) Early period up to end of the Ancient Kingdom
- Egyptian Archer (Kinboat) All periods
- Egyptian Spearman (Kinboat) All periods
- Egyptian monk (Kinboat) Middle and New Kingdoms ? (also for Nubia ?)
- Egyptian Galley (Aaglo) Middle and New Kingdoms ?
- Egyptian swordsman (AoK conversion) : Middle and New Kingdoms ?
- Egyptian chariot (Firaxis) : New Kingdoms but looks a bit special (ie Pharaoh)

Other civs :
- Lybian (Utahjazz) : Middle and New Kingdoms ?
- Peleset Spearman (Utahjazz) : New Kingdom
- Sherdan swordsman (Utahjazz) : New Kingdom
- Hurrit chariot (Firaxis, uses the Hittite chariot) : Hyksos and New Kingdom
- Jewish slinger (DPII) : after Ramses II
- Greeks (mercenaries) (different units and creators) : after Ramses II

We need some bronze Age Arabs and Nubian troops are not easy to separate from Egyptian ones.

This list tends to indicate we have more units for the Middle and New Kingdoms.

LouLong · Sep 5, 2005

My first idea for the time was to have something like 1650 BC - 1490 BC.

This would start with the XIVth dynasty and civil war (hence different Egyptian factions) then see the Hyksos invasion, the subsequent learning of chariots and the reconquest and reunification until the founding of the New Kingdom and the Golden Age of Hatchepsut.

LouLong · Sep 5, 2005

JuuL said:
My favorite is also Ramesses II. That would be cool...
- the Hittites would be a challenging enemy... bronze vs. iron (the Battle of Kadesh would also be interesting... Egyptian army against a well-defended Barricade on the other side of a river...)
- While Ramesses ruled there was also a rebellion in Nubia. There's nothing like a war on two fronts.
- Lots of wonders to built: Abu Simbel, the expansion of the temple in Thebes etc. - not to mention the city of Pi-Ramesses
- Some believe that Ramesses was the Pharaoh who would not let Moses and his people leave Egypt (could be interesting...)
- Ramesses II ruled for 66 years, that's plenty of time to have a great game (specially if you only have one to three months per turn).

For inspiration, try reading Christian Jacq's 5 books about Ramesses II (the story is fictional, but Jacq is an Eqyptologist so they are based on correct historical information).

I have read his books. Fun reading albeit he copies/pastes entire paragrpahs from one to another. On the other hand, albeit trained in that field and useful for the way of living he does write fiction novels. Ramses II LOST the battle of Kadesh. But his ego (well, probably the same as the other pharaohs') made him have his victory carved in stone for propaganda reasons).

The main issue I have with Ramses II is that we would nearly need the Mesopotamian Conquest map as it was a time of geopolitical struggles. And I wanted to focus more on Egypt, not on Hittites, Assyrians,... albeit this could happen as the topic is not decided yet.

LouLong · Sep 5, 2005

MaisseArsouye said:
I see five major time possibilities :
- unification of Egypt
- Hatchepsout-Touthmosis
- Akhenaton ( maybe too unique )
- Ramses II
- helenic times ( Cleopatra, Ptolmys )

I have to admit Ramses II would be my favourite.

I allready made a map of Egypt but I could do a new one because this scenario sounds very interesting

We might need a new map BUT first we would need to agree on the topic !

Unification of Egypt seems too early and would not use many nice units. It could pretty boring running around slowly with warriors.

Helenistic Egypt is a no-go. That would be for another scenario for the hellenistic monarchies as here we focus on the bronze age and Egypt per se.

What would you see as a scenario plot for Akhenaton ? Religious civil war with Horemheb as rebel leader ?

jvoutsas · Sep 5, 2005

This looks like a great idea. I've been contemplating doing a scenario on Ancient Egypt, but using the tech tree as a historical timer (like pinktilapia did in RFRE). I've often thought his use of the tech tree made the game much more historically accurate, and gave you a feel of where you were in comparison to the real thing. I'm sure it isn't easy though.

MaisseArsouye · Sep 5, 2005

Religious civil war is a possibility. On one hand, there would be Akhnaton, on the other one Horemheb and the clergy of Amon.

Supa · Sep 5, 2005

I like this scenario idea. If you need additionnal graphics from Pharaoh..

LouLong · Sep 5, 2005

Supa said:
I like this scenario idea. If you need additionnal graphics from Pharaoh..

Definitely could !

Supa · Sep 5, 2005

Well, I'll reinstall the game and wait for yours requests

LouLong · Sep 5, 2005

jvoutsas said:
This looks like a great idea. I've been contemplating doing a scenario on Ancient Egypt, but using the tech tree as a historical timer (like pinktilapia did in RFRE). I've often thought his use of the tech tree made the game much more historically accurate, and gave you a feel of where you were in comparison to the real thing. I'm sure it isn't easy though.

As much as I appreciate RFRE, I think this sytem restricts the independance of the player. It is a great tool to learn and relive history. But I prefer a more opened perspective where you can rewrite history (ie things don't HAVE TO) happen the same way.
I thought of such a system for the 7 years war but here I think it could ruin the game by being too directive.

LouLong · Sep 5, 2005

MaisseArsouye said:
Religious civil war is a possibility. On one hand, there would be Akhnaton, on the other one Horemheb and the clergy of Amon.

That should be for Civ4 and religion

It is possible but limited.

Arne · Sep 5, 2005

May be, I should quote my opinion from that other thread here? So, here it is:

Arne (in the TGA-thread) said:
The time before the beginning of New Kingdom seems to be the best starting era to me. Why? Well, there could be used much more units in "correct" historical coherence. Before that time, there where no horses in Egypt, that means no mounted troops and no chariots are possible to build. The Egyptians learned charioting from the Hyksos. There was also no ironworking and even bronzeworking wasn't fully developed before. And it is about (re)unite Egypt too. So if the Sceanrio will be a small one, that era makes most sense to me at the first view...

Well, like I said, thats just my opinion. If the sceanrio is about reuniting Egypt and building the New Kingdom, involved Civs could be:

1. "Must-be"-Civs
- Hyksos' "Egypt" (= Lower Egypt), not sure how Egyptians named it during that time
- Quemt/Kemet (= [upper] Egypt, Thebes/Waset should be the capital)
- Kush

2. additional Civs; take them all or choose some from them
- Tehenu (= Libya, a "traditional" enemy of egypt)
- Kefitu (= Crete)
- Rethennu (~ Hyksos "Homeland", situated "somewhere between" todays Israel and Syria)
- Hurri (= Hurritians, later Hethitians)
- Naharin (= Mitanni)
- Alasia (= Cyprus)

3. Civs, wich I personaly don't like to see involved:
- Israelites, would be historical incorrect in this scenario.
- Seapeople. This was never a Civ. IMHO Seapeople could be included as hidden nationality units for Libya and some other Civs, if the scenario is also about the end of bronce age, but not as a Civ.

Thats all for now.

LouLong · Sep 5, 2005

Arne, at least we agree on the period it seems. Starting before the new kingdom. You don't regret the first unification of Egypt ?

In this case I agree Syria and Sea peoples are out, albeit the latter can be made to start around Cilicia and be the "pirates" of the game. I can cut the map so Cilicia appears as an island and we could put a resource in Palestine really useful for them.

But what about choosing the period just before the Hyksos when civil war divided Egypt ? The challenge would be more important, wouldn't it ?
We could divide Egypt into 3-4 areas all trying to go for supremacy and reunite Egypt and make Hyksos start in their "origin" place and in locked war with the 2 northern Egyptian principalties.
For them I would see one around Memphis, 1 around Thebes, 1 centered on Elephantine (the governors there were always independent-minded) and maybe 1 around Hermopolis.
What do you think ?

Initially I thought of putting Kreta and Cyprus so I'd be real glad to have them back. Mitanni would be at the limit of the map but ok.

Arne · Sep 5, 2005

LouLong said:
But what about choosing the period just before the Hyksos when civil war divided Egypt ? The challenge would be more important, wouldn't it ?

I'm not sure. You mean the unrest under the 15th/16th dynasty, the second intervening period (not sure if that is the correct therm, in German it is named "Zweite Zwischenzeit")? If so, I can't imagine it taken into a scenario.

LouLong said:
We could divide Egypt into 3-4 areas all trying to go for supremacy and reunite Egypt and make Hyksos start in their "origin" place and in locked war with the 2 northern Egyptian principalties.
For them I would see one around Memphis, 1 around Thebes, 1 centered on Elephantine (the governors there were always independent-minded) and maybe 1 around Hermopolis.
What do you think ?

Well, my "main problem" with that is, the Hyksos didn't invade Egypt by military actions. The took it over slowly by some sort of assimilation, becouse the Pharao was weak and the rulers of the egyptian districts where also weak and at odds with eachother. This is one reason, why I would think, fighting back the Hyksos out of Egypt is a "better" situation for a Civ-scenario.

OTOH, I think, divide Egypt into 3-4 (more or less independent) areas is a very good idea. It could be done with that "reuniting-by-fighting-back-the- Hyksos-scenario" too. The initial fighting area in history was the area around Thebes, so in the sceanrio it could be Thebes (Waset) too, but it could also be done by Memphis (Menofer) or an other of that areas.

Kyriakos · Sep 5, 2005

I think that the terrain in Sinai is a lot more mountanous, and the same holds true for the arabian coast.

MaisseArsouye · Sep 5, 2005

Arne said:
"Zweite Zwischenzeit")? If so, I can't imagine it taken into a scenario.

We understand, you're talking about the "seconde période intermédiaire"

I think Loulong had a very good idea for the scenario. I had other ideas but I have to admit his idea is much better. With a powefull pharaoh, a scenario mainly based on egypt is pointless because there's virtually no opponent.

In the choosen period, we start with a divided Egypt and must unify it. That's a challenge ! Now, we have to know : do we start before or after the Hyksos invaded northern Egypt ?

I think a middle solution would be to start before, while giving the Hyksos such a military power that they will easily take over a weak Delta in a few turns.

And I agree with Varwnos, there should be more mountains in the east, on both sides of the Red Sea.

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