2020 Election Thread!!!!!!!!!

They might dislike and mistrust him, but Lex said he was "sabotaged and ostracized."

I gave him as an example. I mainly had the primary shenanigans in mind - while I don't believe the nonsense about "rigging" the election the DNC and Democratic apparatus obviously favored Clinton and had their thumbs on the scale for her in a lot of ways. But the other big person I had in mind there was Keith Ellison, who was, to wit, both sabotaged and ostracized by the actions of the party elders in inserting Tom Perez into the chair of the DNC.

He obviously likes that he's not part of the party, and it serves him to have it around as a punching bag.

I think he would like it better if he could feel "at home" in the Democratic Party.
 
I gave him as an example. I mainly had the primary shenanigans in mind - while I don't believe the nonsense about "rigging" the election the DNC and Democratic apparatus obviously favored Clinton and had their thumbs on the scale for her in a lot of ways. But the other big person I had in mind there was Keith Ellison, who was, to wit, both sabotaged and ostracized by the actions of the party elders in inserting Tom Perez into the chair of the DNC.

There was a vote on that though, and while I think they party elders should have stepped aside in this instance, I don't know that I'd call that "sabotage." Obviously there are a lot of grudges against Bernie being acted out, no argument there, but those grudges are not one-sided. It's not fair to expect 100% of the reconciliation to come from one side, but his supporters and at least some of his surrogates seem to think it ought to.

I think he would like it better if he could feel "at home" in the Democratic Party.

I have my doubts about that, but even if that is true, it seems that this would mean basically acquiescing to every one of his criticisms and turning the entire party platform over to him. Given the wide diversity of views within the party as to what needs prioritization, I don't think this is a good idea. Bernie's voters are not loyal Democrats, and while I'm sure the party wants them to be, they have other constituencies too. Constituencies that are very vocally against abandoning their interests in favor of someone who isn't even in the party.
 
There was a vote on that though, and while I think they party elders should have stepped aside in this instance, I don't know that I'd call that "sabotage."

Oh, come on. They inserted Tom Perez into the race and plugged him to foil Ellison. They smeared Ellison as a Muslim extremist and an anti-Semite. To describe this as sabotage is completely accurate.

I have my doubts about that, but even if that is true, it seems that this would mean basically acquiescing to every one of his criticisms and turning the entire party platform over to him. Given the wide diversity of views within the party as to what needs prioritization, I don't think this is a good idea. Bernie's voters are not loyal Democrats, and while I'm sure the party wants them to be, they have other constituencies too. Constituencies that are very vocally against abandoning their interests in favor of someone who isn't even in the party.

Which constituencies' interests would be abandoned by adopting 100% of Bernie's platform?
 
I think there is a fairly large contingent of Democrats who believe that racial equality ought to come part and parcel with economic inequality. That one without the other is not significantly helpful to racial minorities, and evidence tends to back that conclusion up. There are other contingents of Democratic voters who believe that protecting the right to choose is the paramount concern. There is, of course, overlap between these consituencies, but they have both been voting loyally for Democrats for decades.

Bernie seems willing to compromise on those things in favor of his agenda. Whether you agree with him on that point or not, that abandons the interests of many loyal voters, to prioritize single payer and minimum wage over other concerns, as Bernie has argued for.

In an ideal world you would pass reforms in all of those areas, and if Bernie was going to be a dictator, perhaps he would. But voters understand that you only get a shot at one or two an election cycle, perhaps in an entire presidency. So what a given candidate appears to be prioritizing matters to voters, and it is quite obvious that Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders have different priorities. Hillary's priorities got more votes, especially from Democrats. Turning around and claiming that instead we need to go with Bernie's priorities is going to chafe a lot of behinds, judging by what I see on Twitter.
 
I think there is a fairly large contingent of Democrats who believe that racial equality ought to come part and parcel with economic inequality. That one without the other is not significantly helpful to racial minorities, and evidence tends to back that conclusion up.

This is just terrible framing, though. Setting these abstractions against each other is totally meaningless and counterproductive. In reality racial and economic inequality are not neatly separable. Neither are economic inequality and access to abortion.

Bernie seems willing to compromise on those things in favor of his agenda.

I have no idea where you get this idea. The choice thing, I'll grant that I seem to remember him supporting some pro-life guy in Montana who had some economic-lefty ideas. To my knowledge he has never supported any candidate who opposed Roe v Wade nor has he indicated a willingness to give up the right to abortion access in exchange for other policy gains.

In an ideal world you would pass reforms in all of those areas, and if Bernie was going to be a dictator, perhaps he would. But voters understand that you only get a shot at one or two an election cycle, perhaps in an entire presidency. So what a given candidate appears to be prioritizing matters to voters, and it is quite obvious that Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders have different priorities. Hillary's priorities got more votes, especially from Democrats. Turning around and claiming that instead we need to go with Bernie's priorities is going to chafe a lot of behinds, judging by what I see on Twitter.

These behinds you mention are living in the same world of abstractions you ventured to in your opening salvo of this post. What does freedom to choose (abortion) mean if most women are too poor to afford one? What does some ideal of racial equality mean if most black people are too poor to make any real life choices in any case? Reality is intersectional. A perfect example of what I'm talking about: Bernie's plan for medicare for all includes coverage for abortions, and, presumably, birth control. That makes him, at minimum, more pro-choice than all the Democrats who don't support genuinely universal health coverage.

But in any case, framing these issues so that economic equality is an either-or choice with racial equality, so that women's access to healthcare is framed as an either-or choice with economic equality, is nonsense. It is, almost literally, a capitalist plot to divide their class enemies. And those pushing this narrative are in my experience invariably living inside a blissful bubble of class privilege, which is unsurprising because that's what's required to view things like racial equality and access to healthcare in these abstract terms. A great phrase in a Jacobin article I read a few months back:

R.L. Stephens said:
That’s why class struggle is so central, because marginalization doesn’t occur in the abstract. It happens when I can’t get a job, when I get denied for loans, when property managers with available units lie and tell me there are none for rent.

Now, I don't fully agree with this argument - the author in my view is a tad too class-reductionist - but it's absolutely correct that thinking of racial inequality in abstract terms only takes us so far, and once we start having a conversation about the material inequalities faced by people of color in this country it becomes obvious that no "anti-racist" agenda is worthy of the name unless it includes a systemic attack on economic inequality.

A more nuanced treatment of the same issue:

Asad Haider said:
I don’t subscribe to any class reductionism, because I think that puts things entirely the wrong way. When we’re trying to understand very concrete problems of the role of race in a movement or in American society, and someone says “Well, is race or class more important here?”, that’s a completely obfuscatory way to use Marxist language. That would be going from the concrete to the abstract, whereas the materialist method Marx proposed was to go from the abstract to the concrete. OK, what would that mean? We have to take this abstraction in our heads—race—and add in the complexity of all the things that determine it, and bring it to the concrete particularity of material life. That means we can’t settle some kind of question like “Is race or class more important?” as an abstract theological debate.

We have to look at our real material situation and our real political conjuncture. When we do that, that’s when we can get a politics that deals with the variety of forms of oppression. I think that when people make the argument that class is more fundamental than race because it has to do with the fundamental human needs of food and shelter and so on, it’s simply a nonsense statement. It’s an idealist kind of statement, because obviously if someone is shot by a policeman, it doesn’t matter if the policeman was thinking “I’m shooting you because of your race” or “I’m shooting you because you’re poor and don’t belong in this neighborhood.” What matters is the bullet in your back and the institution that put it there. It’s a material phenomenon that has to be explained and understood in terms of the real history of the social structure—not in terms of moral pieties, but also not in terms of totally abstract schemas that make some kind of appeal to human nature or social psychology.

What Marxism really means is that you believe that people should have the power to govern themselves, and that in order to achieve that goal you have to have a scientific understanding of the social structure that prevents us from achieving it. History frankly doesn’t care about our debates about which abstraction is more important. It ruthlessly sets up hierarchies of relations and institutions, and I believe Marx definitively demonstrated that in a capitalist society, emancipation cannot be achieved unless it takes the form of class struggle, which is a form of struggle that incorporates people of every identity.

http://www.seattleweekly.com/news/a-marxist-critiques-identity-politics/

If you ignore the little bits of Marxist dogma thrown in here, this is completely spot-on.
 
People like you are the reason I piss on the Democrats. Just so you know.


Edit: @ metalhead
 
These behinds you mention are living in the same world of abstractions you ventured to in your opening salvo of this post. What does freedom to choose (abortion) mean if most women are too poor to afford one? What does some ideal of racial equality mean if most black people are too poor to make any real life choices in any case? Reality is intersectional. A perfect example of what I'm talking about: Bernie's plan for medicare for all includes coverage for abortions, and, presumably, birth control. That makes him, at minimum, more pro-choice than all the Democrats who don't support genuinely universal health coverage.

But in any case, framing these issues so that economic equality is an either-or choice with racial equality, so that women's access to healthcare is framed as an either-or choice with economic equality, is nonsense. It is, almost literally, a capitalist plot to divide their class enemies. And those pushing this narrative are in my experience invariably living inside a blissful bubble of class privilege, which is unsurprising because that's what's required to view things like racial equality and access to healthcare in these abstract terms. A great phrase in a Jacobin article I read a few months back:

I can turn your "concrete examples" right back around on you - what good does covering a woman's abortions do if they can't afford to travel to the nearest clinic which is hundreds of miles away? Who benefits the least from single payer if the law doesn't ensure poor urban and rural people don't have access to quality health care, including safe abortion nearby? Given how frequently the elderly suffer at low quality nursing homes paid for by Medicaid, this is not a damned abstract question! It's important! The government-run insurance we have now needs a lot of revamping, and I just don't understand how you wave that all away as if it's just an "abstraction." I assure you, the concerns are very real.

You want to hand-wave all criticism without considering it by writing it off as an "abstraction" or a "capitalist ploy," but that's ridiculous. You can't seriously believe there won't be tradeoffs and compromises in crafting legislation like Bernie proposes. Moreover, you're surely aware that anything to do with expanding access to abortion is going to run into a ton of opposition at the state level. I frankly think it's absurd that you can just pretend that isn't a legitimate concern that people have, that he might not fight for access to abortion for all as part of his single payer plan. And it's even more absurd that you deride women who are voicing that very concern as "thinking in abstractions." If he can compromise on choice when deciding candidates he will support, why the hell wouldn't women be justified in believing he'll compromise on choice when it comes to single payer legislation? Because he said so??
 
And as far as racial equality is concerned, as I've posted before to crickets - who benefits from free college when white people graduate at twice the rate of Black people? Who benefits more from a minimum wage hike the most when Black people are unemployed at twice the rate of white people? Who benefits more from those policies when systemic racism prevents Black people from moving to certain places, from buying houses, from owning cars, when a total BS criminal record prevents Black people from voting, or from being able to get a job or operate a business, or going to college or grad school?

Again, not abstractions. I'm pretty insulted that you would strawman me like that, to be honest. These are real concerns, that activists across the country have a vested interest in and have been fighting for for a very long time. Coming along now and being all like, "No what we really need is free college and a minimum wage increase" doesn't speak to the real (not abstract!) concerns that millions of loyal Democrats have. Those things bump white people right up to the front of the line to take the lion's share of the benefit like always happens. I have no idea why you think, absent policies to prevent it, you don't think that it will work that way? It always works that way.
 
I can turn your "concrete examples" right back around on you - what good does covering a woman's abortions do if they can't afford to travel to the nearest clinic which is hundreds of miles away? Who benefits the least from single payer if the law doesn't ensure poor urban and rural people don't have access to quality health care, including safe abortion nearby? Given how frequently the elderly suffer at low quality nursing homes paid for by Medicaid, this is not a damned abstract question! It's important! The government-run insurance we have now needs a lot of revamping, and I just don't understand how you wave that all away as if it's just an "abstraction." I assure you, the concerns are very real.

You want to hand-wave all criticism without considering it by writing it off as an "abstraction" or a "capitalist ploy," but that's ridiculous. You can't seriously believe there won't be tradeoffs and compromises in crafting legislation like Bernie proposes. Moreover, you're surely aware that anything to do with expanding access to abortion is going to run into a ton of opposition at the state level. I frankly think it's absurd that you can just pretend that isn't a legitimate concern that people have, that he might not fight for access to abortion for all as part of his single payer plan. And it's even more absurd that you deride women who are voicing that very concern as "thinking in abstractions." If he can compromise on choice when deciding candidates he will support,
\why the hell wouldn't women be justified in believing he'll compromise on choice when it comes to single payer legislation? Because he said so??

And as far as racial equality is concerned, as I've posted before to crickets - who benefits from free college when white people graduate at twice the rate of Black people? Who benefits more from a minimum wage hike the most when Black people are unemployed at twice the rate of white people? Who benefits more from those policies when systemic racism prevents Black people from moving to certain places, from buying houses, from owning cars, when a total BS criminal record prevents Black people from voting, or from being able to get a job or operate a business, or going to college or grad school?

Again, not abstractions. I'm pretty insulted that you would strawman me like that, to be honest. These are real concerns, that activists across the country have a vested interest in and have been fighting for for a very long time. Coming along now and being all like, "No what we really need is free college and a minimum wage increase" doesn't speak to the real (not abstract!) concerns that millions of loyal Democrats have. Those things bump white people right up to the front of the line to take the lion's share of the benefit like always happens. I have no idea why you think, absent policies to prevent it, you don't think that it will work that way? It always works that way.

I'm pretty insulted by your response, in turn, because it feels like you didn't actually read anything I wrote and are arguing with a bunch of stuff I never said. I never said that all criticisms of Bernie's healthcare legislation are based on abstractions. Indeed, specific criticisms of his health care law based on how it materially affects people's access to health care would be the opposite of abstract concerns. My arguments about abstractions were, as I think you would realize if you had actually read my post, not apropos of any specific policy or legislation. They were a response to your argument, which is of course not yours alone, in which (as I construed it) you set up racial equality, access to abortion, and economic equality as abstract ideals and then implicitly pit them against each other, implying that Bernie wants us to sacrifice the first two to get the third one.

I was attacking the theoretical basis of that argument. That was all I was doing. I was not claiming that Bernie's Medicare-for-all plan is beyond reproach or that all criticisms of it are based on "abstractions."

Now, on to some more concrete/specific stuff.

Given how frequently the elderly suffer at low quality nursing homes paid for by Medicaid, this is not a damned abstract question! It's important!

The key phrase is "paid for." Paid for by Medicaid. Administered by...you guessed it, capitalist criminals who would be rendered irrelevant by a proper single-payer system. It is ironic, though, because the biggest problems with our "government" health care systems all seem to emanate from the private sector or public-private interactions in the system...

And it's even more absurd that you deride women who are voicing that very concern as "thinking in abstractions."

As I discussed above, this is a ridiculous leap - I never once said that anyone who criticizes Bernie's health care plan is "thinking in abstractions." I think maybe this misunderstanding stemmed from us taking "chafed behinds" to refer to different things. I did not believe that in writing off the chafed behinds I was writing off anyone who ever criticized anything Bernie did for any reason. As I believe my post made clear I was referring to a specific type of chafed behind, the type chafed because the person it belongs to believes that racial equality and economic equality are somehow at odds.

I frankly think it's absurd that you can just pretend that isn't a legitimate concern that people have, that he might not fight for access to abortion for all as part of his single payer plan.

And quite frankly, I think this concern is itself absurd. We don't have access to abortion for all now, and as much as I'd like to see it, rejecting any single-player plan on the basis that it does not provide abortion access to all is the definition of making the perfect the enemy of the good. I just flat-out don't believe that any universal health care policy would make access to abortion worse than it is now.

If he can compromise on choice when deciding candidates he will support, why the hell wouldn't women be justified in believing he'll compromise on choice when it comes to single payer legislation? Because he said so??

I would first like to note the irony that we in the Bernie camp regularly are accused of "moral purity" by people in the Democratic Party camp.

I'm not really certain what the substance of Bernie supporting pro-life candidates actually is. Let me just say that I doubt he would support anyone who wanted to seriously reduce access to abortions (if he has done that, and you can show me, I'll stand corrected) and I would guess that where he has supported pro-life candidates, their opponents are even worse on the issue of abortion (which, in this two-party system, is all that really matters, else I certainly wouldn't have supported Clinton).

And as far as racial equality is concerned, as I've posted before to crickets - who benefits from free college when white people graduate at twice the rate of Black people?

Now, I'm not super-familiar with the facts here by any means, but...do you think that the disparity in graduation rates might have anything to do with the fact that black families are so much poorer, on average, than white families? The only way you can frame this as a policy that doesn't help black people is if you believe that black people's lower graduation rates have nothing whatever to do with the cost of a college education - or with wealth in general. Since I think that's likely not a tenable position (indeed, I think I recall reading a piece on the issue that argued part of the reason for the difference in graduation rates is that white students have much greater access to the resources required to sustain them through a crisis) I happen to think that free college would benefit black people a great deal.

And of course there is more to the story than just differential graduation rates. Black graduates have significantly more debt than white graduates- that issue is addressed by free college. Black people just plain don't go to college proportionally more than white people, which is unsurprising since the median wealth of a black family is less than one-tenth the median wealth of a white family.

Now, I have been arguing as long as I've been on this forum that I believe the focus on greater access to college is misguided as a tool for dealing with economic inequality, and that the real task is to ensure that people without college degrees can earn a comfortable living. But that is a larger question and addressing it would drag us off the topic here.

Who benefits more from a minimum wage hike the most when Black people are unemployed at twice the rate of white people?

The answer, of course, is that black people would benefit immensely from increasing the minimum wage as black people are more likely than white people to be minimum wage workers. Per the EPI

The minimum wage increase would disproportionately raise wages for people of color—for example, blacks make up 12.2 percent of the workforce but 16.7 percent of affected workers. This disproportionate impact means large shares of black and Hispanic workers would be affected: 40.1 percent of black workers and 33.5 percent of Hispanic workers would directly or indirectly get a raise.

Seriously, you attempting to frame a minimum wage increase as not helpful to black people is just preposterous.

Coming along now and being all like, "No what we really need is free college and a minimum wage increase" doesn't speak to the real (not abstract!) concerns that millions of loyal Democrats have.

And is this really what you think Bernie's impact on the political scene can be summed up as? If the answer is yes, then I think we disagree so profoundly about premises that further discussion is largely pointless.
 
Last edited:
I will vote for Trump to have a second term unless metalhead apologizes to Bernie and he admits he was wrong.
 
In that case Trump is as good as reelected.

Speaking of which:
After months out of the limelight, Hillary Clinton edged back into view recently with two fits of activity. The first was an announcement that her voters should read Verrit, a website managed by a former Clinton digital strategist that purports to post verified facts for the 65.8 million people who voted for her. One of the site’s first such facts was that Bernie Sanders helped put Donald Trump in the White House. Later on, an excerpt from Clinton’s new book leaked, in which she blames Sanders for hobbling her in the general election, though she seems far more circumspect about why she lost in general. Still, this all begs the question, did Bernie Sanders really put Donald Trump in the White House?

To answer that question, first we need to acknowledge the limitations of such an inquiry. Individual presidential elections have an n of 1; there’s no control group in which there’s an election in which Clinton glides through a primary unscathed. Accordingly, one cannot definitively say “but for one event, another outcome would have occurred.” Especially one that’s so hard to quantify. The Comey Effect can at least be measured to some degree because it occurred when the race was being polled daily, but even then it’s impossible to isolate from a universe in which there was no letter sent to Congress by then-FBI Director James Comey just days before the election.
http://www.centerforpolitics.org/cr...-sanders-cost-hillary-clinton-the-presidency/
Summary: Guest columnist puts the "It's all Bernie's fault" crowd in their place.
 
I'm pretty insulted by your response, in turn, because it feels like you didn't actually read anything I wrote and are arguing with a bunch of stuff I never said. I never said that all criticisms of Bernie's healthcare legislation are based on abstractions. Indeed, specific criticisms of his health care law based on how it materially affects people's access to health care would be the opposite of abstract concerns. My arguments about abstractions were, as I think you would realize if you had actually read my post, not apropos of any specific policy or legislation. They were a response to your argument, which is of course not yours alone, in which (as I construed it) you set up racial equality, access to abortion, and economic equality as abstract ideals and then implicitly pit them against each other, implying that Bernie wants us to sacrifice the first two to get the third one.

I said the following:

I think there is a fairly large contingent of Democrats who believe that racial equality ought to come part and parcel with economic inequality. That one without the other is not significantly helpful to racial minorities, and evidence tends to back that conclusion up.
How that pits one against the other is, frankly, completely beyond me. I think it pretty plainly says that doing one without the other is ultimately fruitless. It seems like a pretty fundamental truth to me, and I'm still flummoxed as to why you had to set up an elaborate strawman to knock down. And to top it all off, you assumed "abstractions" even though I've many times voiced specific substantive concerns.

I've always, I thought, been crystal clear that I don't believe it's an either/or proposition. What I believe, and what many people whose opinions I read, subscribe to is that you need to do both together if you want to affect real, positive, revolutionary change for communities of color in this country. And elevate the downtrodden white people at the same time.

As I discussed above, this is a ridiculous leap - I never once said that anyone who criticizes Bernie's health care plan is "thinking in abstractions." I think maybe this misunderstanding stemmed from us taking "chafed behinds" to refer to different things. I did not believe that in writing off the chafed behinds I was writing off anyone who ever criticized anything Bernie did for any reason. As I believe my post made clear I was referring to a specific type of chafed behind, the type chafed because the person it belongs to believes that racial equality and economic equality are somehow at odds.

Who believes this, exactly? Again, you're importing this idea into the conversation and I don't even know where it's coming from. Maybe there are a bunch of people out there advancing this idea, and I'm unaware of it? I'm sure as hell not, even though you think otherwise.

And quite frankly, I think this concern is itself absurd. We don't have access to abortion for all now, and as much as I'd like to see it, rejecting any single-player plan on the basis that it does not provide abortion access to all is the definition of making the perfect the enemy of the good. I just flat-out don't believe that any universal health care policy would make access to abortion worse than it is now.

Here's where you're missing the point. If access to reproductive health care was the policy you cared about most, that you though was most critical need in society today, you just wouldn't be all that into a candidate who didn't seem that interested in it as a policy goal. Right? This is what I'm talking about. You wouldn't be against the single payer plan, but you wouldn't be all that enthused about it, either.

It's not about rejecting it. You're positing a binary here when it is more complicated than that. There aren't two simple positions on a given policy - in favor or against. Surely you can see why one might be tepid or even hostile to a single payer plan that doesn't expand access to reproductive health care, if that is their primary issue, their primary motivator at the ballot box. That doesn't mean they reject it as policy, but it means the candidate pushing that plan isn't going to get far with that particular voter.

Now, I'm not super-familiar with the facts here by any means, but...do you think that the disparity in graduation rates might have anything to do with the fact that black families are so much poorer, on average, than white families? The only way you can frame this as a policy that doesn't help black people is if you believe that black people's lower graduation rates have nothing whatever to do with the cost of a college education - or with wealth in general. Since I think that's likely not a tenable position (indeed, I think I recall reading a piece on the issue that argued part of the reason for the difference in graduation rates is that white students have much greater access to the resources required to sustain them through a crisis) I happen to think that free college would benefit black people a great deal.

And of course there is more to the story than just differential graduation rates. Black graduates have significantly more debt than white graduates- that issue is addressed by free college. Black people just plain don't go to college proportionally more than white people, which is unsurprising since the median wealth of a black family is less than one-tenth the median wealth of a white family.

Surely part of the reason is family wealth disparity. Just as part of the reason is less access to quality secondary education. Part of the reason is lack of support for minority students by universities themselves. And part of the reason is good old-fashioned racism that students face on college campuses.

But the overarching issue is inequality, is it not? To tie this into what I said above about health care - if you believe in racial equality as the end goal of public policy, and not just the idea of policies that help people of color, you might look at free college and conclude that all it's going to do is further widen the educational achievement gap. As a measure to tackle inequality, on its own this one fails.

That doesn't mean you wouldn't support it, that you wouldn't like it to happen. But it means you might look at a candidate who is pushing it as this wonderful policy idea, and be skeptical. You want to blame people who are lukewarm or hostile towards Bernie Sanders as if they're blind, or stupid, or thinking in "abstractions," or whatever. What I think you're not understanding is that depending on one's main political concern(s), it is eminently reasonable to be skeptical of his policies, and of him.

This is one area where you have to do both elements if you want to try to close the gap in inequality along both economic and racial axes. Free college is a wonderful idea, but you need to go a lot further than simply paying for people's college education.

The answer, of course, is that black people would benefit immensely from increasing the minimum wage as black people are more likely than white people to be minimum wage workers. Per the EPI

Seriously, you attempting to frame a minimum wage increase as not helpful to black people is just preposterous.

That wasn't how I was framing it at all. I was framing it as, maybe some people think Black unemployment is a bigger deal than the minimum wage. That it has a larger impact on communities and people than what the minimum wage is. And that if you're going to address one but not the other, you're missing a large part of the picture with regards to employment issues facing communities of color.

I think many activists would argue very strongly that if all we can do for people of color is increase the wage of their minimum wage job, and not go the, admittedly, much more difficult extra mile of also removing the roadblocks that exist keeping more people from getting jobs, and people who wish to from moving on from those minimum wage jobs, then we've failed.
 
Last edited:
Who believes this, exactly?

https://www.vox.com/world/2017/3/13/14698812/bernie-trump-corbyn-left-wing-populism

Here is one of the most sophisticated articulations of the argument. Many people believe this. You can see it on social media all the time. During the campaign it was quite common for people to make claims that implicitly relied on the premise that social-democratic reform would only benefit white men. Hillary Clinton's campaign even floated the idea of arguing that "Wall St isn't gunning down young black men." All of these arguments are not just ridiculous, they are incredibly dangerous, and they originate from one place, which is the strong class interest of the comfortable in avoiding structural reform to the system that makes them comfortable.

It's not about rejecting it. You're positing a binary here when it is more complicated than that. There aren't two simple positions on a given policy - in favor or against. Surely you can see why one might be tepid or even hostile to a single payer plan that doesn't expand access to reproductive health care, if that is their primary issue, their primary motivator at the ballot box. That doesn't mean they reject it as policy, but it means the candidate pushing that plan isn't going to get far with that particular voter.

Well, this walk-back is quite welcome but it doesn't exactly jive with the tone of your arguments upthread. If it isn't a matter of rejecting the policy, then whence the chafed behinds? Will these behinds be chafed simply because they have policies they can "tepidly" support rather than wholeheartedly? As for "hostile," as I said I literally cannot imagine a single-payer plan that doesn't at least to some degree expand access to reproductive care. If these people are holding out for a policy that accomplishes all their goals in one stroke I think they're going to die disappointed, unfortunately. The relevant question is not whether a policy falls short of an ideal but whether it will improve things in the real world over the current status quo.

you might look at free college and conclude that all it's going to do is further widen the educational achievement gap

But as I indicated, I simply don't think this is the case.

You want to blame people who are lukewarm or hostile towards Bernie Sanders as if they're blind, or stupid, or thinking in "abstractions," or whatever

Uh, no, again, was referring to a specific kind of objection to Bernie's general politics. Not saying that everyone who criticizes the man is an idiot. I've criticized him myself any number of times.

This is one area where you have to do both elements if you want to try to close the gap in inequality along both economic and racial axes. Free college is a wonderful idea, but you need to go a lot further than simply paying for people's college education.

I've been saying for months that free college, minimum wage hikes, and whatever else Bernie's been talking about are nice but vastly insufficient. My objection is the idea that these policies will somehow make racial disparities in society worse - I find that idea absurd, because I think it relies on the ridiculous premise that racial inequality has nothing to do with material inequality.

That wasn't how I was framing it at all. I was framing it as, maybe some people think Black unemployment is a bigger deal than the minimum wage. That it has a larger impact on communities and people than what the minimum wage is. And that if you're going to address one but not the other, you're missing a large part of the picture with regards to employment issues facing communities of color.

Come on, this isn't true and we both know it. You asked rhetorically who is helped by a minimum wage increase when black people are unemployed at more than twice the rate white people are unemployed. The meaning of that is obvious. But I'm glad you're walking that argument back because it's just silly.

Anyway...

http://america.aljazeera.com/articl...-to-black-lives-matter-with-jobs-program.html

Tying racial justice to economic inequality, Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Bernie Sanders has called for a $5.5 billion federal jobs program that could provide its biggest benefit to unemployed youths of color.

Sanders has frequently cited elevated unemployment among black youths as a major concern, and he did so again in his June statement introducing the Employ Young Americans Now Act.

The idea that Bernie Sanders is unconcerned with black unemployment is absurd.

I think many activists would argue very strongly that if all we can do for people of color is increase the wage of their minimum wage job, and not go the, admittedly, much more difficult extra mile of also removing the roadblocks that exist keeping more people from getting jobs, and people who wish to from moving on from those minimum wage jobs, then we've failed.

Look, I would love if we could have a utopian society and fix all the problems facing us at once but it isn't going to happen. The question we need to ask is whether Bernie's policies will make racial inequality better, not whether they will solve all racial problems in the US for once and for all time.

Remember, the question I asked that prompted this was "which constituencies would be left behind by adopting 100% of Bernie's platform." Bernie's platform is a lot more than just free college, minimum wage hike, single-payer healthcare. Go on his website, you can see for yourself. I still don't think you've made any kind of case that adopting those three policies you decided to focus on would abandon the interests of any Democratic constituencies, except possibly the Jeff Bezos types but frankly I'd prefer if they just went over to the Republican Party where they belong.
 
I think a major overhaul of the criminal justice system would be what’s necessary for improving racial equality. People of Color are often put into bad schools, often in the school-to-prison-pipeline. They are threatened against pressing charges when schools literally send their child to jail over bogus charges (such as using a legitamate $2 bill). White people would be up in arms if a white kid was treated the same way but schools try to silence these things and sadly, people of color are used to being silenced and subjected to injustice.

However, public schools need to be improved so that students of color get the same quality education and opportunities as white students.
 
https://www.vox.com/world/2017/3/13/14698812/bernie-trump-corbyn-left-wing-populism

Here is one of the most sophisticated articulations of the argument. Many people believe this. You can see it on social media all the time. During the campaign it was quite common for people to make claims that implicitly relied on the premise that social-democratic reform would only benefit white men. Hillary Clinton's campaign even floated the idea of arguing that "Wall St isn't gunning down young black men." All of these arguments are not just ridiculous, they are incredibly dangerous, and they originate from one place, which is the strong class interest of the comfortable in avoiding structural reform to the system that makes them comfortable.

Only? I don't think you're really arguing with the basic premise that color-blind policy tends to disproportionately benefit white people in America. That Black Americans, at least, are uniquely situated in American life such that policy needs to be tailored to that situation, in order to provide equal benefit. Many, many civil rights leaders have made this argument, and I find it to hold true pretty much all of the time.

Yes, silly over-the-top campaign rhetoric and deeply flawed think-pieces are, well, silly and flawed. To the extent people believe this, it is indeed problematic. But I would honestly be shocked if this was a mainstream view among Bernie skeptics, and I feel they do end up pretty well represented in my social media universe.

Well, this walk-back is quite welcome but it doesn't exactly jive with the tone of your arguments upthread. If it isn't a matter of rejecting the policy, then whence the chafed behinds? Will these behinds be chafed simply because they have policies they can "tepidly" support rather than wholeheartedly? As for "hostile," as I said I literally cannot imagine a single-payer plan that doesn't at least to some degree expand access to reproductive care. If these people are holding out for a policy that accomplishes all their goals in one stroke I think they're going to die disappointed, unfortunately. The relevant question is not whether a policy falls short of an ideal but whether it will improve things in the real world over the current status quo.

The behinds aren't chafed because the policy isn't optimal, they're chafed because a lot of people in the Democratic base don't trust Bernie Sanders to advance their interests and are sick and tired of people condescending to them that they're missing some fundamental truth because of a failing on their part. You (and I to a large extent) agree with most of his criticisms of the party, but surely you can understand why someone who has been a loyal Democrat their whole life might not take kindly to someone who relentlessly criticizes the party.

Also, you realize that current federal law forbids the spending of federal money to fund abortion services, right? I actually have a harder time envisioning an America where that isn't the case any more, certainly not without someone willing to go to the mat to reverse it. Which is the whole point, of course - political capital is limited. Priorities matter. You don't get everything you want out of a given policy. What a candidate says they will fight for matters a great deal.

I've been saying for months that free college, minimum wage hikes, and whatever else Bernie's been talking about are nice but vastly insufficient. My objection is the idea that these policies will somehow make racial disparities in society worse - I find that idea absurd, because I think it relies on the ridiculous premise that racial inequality has nothing to do with material inequality.

Free college absolutely will. It's not absurd, because the material benefit of going to college rests entirely on earning a degree. The continued proliferation of degreed individuals will make a college degree the de facto qualification for most kinds of middle class work going forward, if it isn't already. Where is that going to leave people without degrees? Without debt, sure, which is unquestionably a positive outcome for those who don't earn a degree. But people without degrees - which are now and will continue to be disproportionately people of color - WILL fall further behind.

If ~70% of people of color receive no material benefit from attending college, while ~40% of white people receive no material benefit from attending college, which group as a whole is going to be getting a higher share of the material benefit of the policy out of proportion with their numbers?

Look, I would love if we could have a utopian society and fix all the problems facing us at once but it isn't going to happen. The question we need to ask is whether Bernie's policies will make racial inequality better, not whether they will solve all racial problems in the US for once and for all time.

Remember, the question I asked that prompted this was "which constituencies would be left behind by adopting 100% of Bernie's platform." Bernie's platform is a lot more than just free college, minimum wage hike, single-payer healthcare. Go on his website, you can see for yourself. I still don't think you've made any kind of case that adopting those three policies you decided to focus on would abandon the interests of any Democratic constituencies, except possibly the Jeff Bezos types but frankly I'd prefer if they just went over to the Republican Party where they belong.

But that's an absurd question, because it would never, ever happen that way. That's the whole point! Policies change, compromises are made. If Bernie were able to pass 50% of the things he wants to pass - which would he prioritize? What will he be willing to bargain away in exchange for getting most of what he wants? What policies will he spend his political capital to defend? Candidates aren't just a set of policies written on a piece of paper. People aren't picking a president just based on the policies on the candidates' respective websites, because people are smart enough to know that the policies on those websites are not all going to be enacted into law as is.

People want a president who will to prioritize their interests, and I think there is ample evidence for many, many people - whether you think it intellectually supportable or not - who just don't think Bernie has their interests at the top of his list, compared to other candidates. There are good and not-so-good and downright terrible reasons why, but that's really all there is to it. I have no problem with appeals to reason, pointing out that at least some of his policies will have good outcomes for people with particular interests and concerns, as you are trying to do. But in general I see from a lot of people on the left a general unwillingness to understand the dynamics of why not everyone is on board with Bernie as the savior.
 
But in general I see from a lot of people on the left a general unwillingness to understand the dynamics of why not everyone is on board with Bernie as the savior.
Because you are projecting that mentality onto a way bigger group of people than actually possess it.
 
Only? I don't think you're really arguing with the basic premise that color-blind policy tends to disproportionately benefit white people in America.

I'm not arguing with that premise because I agree with it! But the question, yet again, is not whether some policy will bring about a post-racial utopia; we know the answer is no. The question is whether a given policy will create an improvement on the status quo.

Yes, silly over-the-top campaign rhetoric and deeply flawed think-pieces are, well, silly and flawed. To the extent people believe this, it is indeed problematic. But I would honestly be shocked if this was a mainstream view among Bernie skeptics, and I feel they do end up pretty well represented in my social media universe.

"Mainstream" is a fuzzy word but my impression is the opposite - that it is more or less mainstream among uncritical Democrats. And that's for the very simple reason that I don't think that the mainstream in the Democratic Party believes in economic justice.

a lot of people in the Democratic base don't trust Bernie Sanders to advance their interests

berniepoll_0.jpg


:dunno: Notice also how African Americans and women approve of Bernie at higher rates than whites or men.

and are sick and tired of people condescending to them that they're missing some fundamental truth because of a failing on their part.

If you think I'm doing that in this thread please come out and say so.

surely you can understand why someone who has been a loyal Democrat their whole life might not take kindly to someone who relentlessly criticizes the party.

Not really, honestly. I don't understand why anyone would place partisan loyalty over effecting actual change that helps people. "I don't like Bernie Sanders because he insults the Democratic Party" is just a stupid thing to think, full stop. You can disagree with the substance of his criticisms, you can not like his politics, that's all fine, but disliking him simply because he criticizes one's tribe is idiotic.

Also, you realize that current federal law forbids the spending of federal money to fund abortion services, right? I actually have a harder time envisioning an America where that isn't the case any more, certainly not without someone willing to go to the mat to reverse it. Which is the whole point, of course - political capital is limited. Priorities matter. You don't get everything you want out of a given policy. What a candidate says they will fight for matters a great deal.

Of course I'm aware of this. Which is why I very specifically said that I cannot imagine a universal health care law that makes access to reproductive health care worse than it is now. If there really are people who place a higher priority on trashing the Hyde Amendment than on universal health care then I profoundly disagree with those people, and that's fine. What I think would be absolutely foolish of them, and where my criticisms would start applying, would be to oppose a plan for universal health care that doesn't include trashing the Hyde Amendment.

Free college absolutely will. It's not absurd, because the material benefit of going to college rests entirely on earning a degree. The continued proliferation of degreed individuals will make a college degree the de facto qualification for most kinds of middle class work going forward, if it isn't already. Where is that going to leave people without degrees? Without debt, sure, which is unquestionably a positive outcome for those who don't earn a degree. But people without degrees - which are now and will continue to be disproportionately people of color - WILL fall further behind.

If ~70% of people of color receive no material benefit from attending college, while ~40% of white people receive no material benefit from attending college, which group as a whole is going to be getting a higher share of the material benefit of the policy out of proportion with their numbers?

It's not actually true that the material benefit of going to college rests entirely on getting a degree. There are other things involved- actual learning of skills, but mostly socializing and networking.

I also don't agree with your prediction viz. a college degree. The proliferation of degrees seems to just mean that many people with degrees end up underemployed in jobs that don't make any use of their education. But the main point here is the fact that colleges in the US act already to reinforce and reproduce white privilege! I'm not really seeing a good argument that free college will cause that situation to get worse - if it were true that society was stratifying into people with college degrees and the peons, you might have a point, but I know too many peons with college degrees to believe it.

But that's an absurd question, because it would never, ever happen that way.

The point of the question was to establish a hypothetical that would let us talk about whose interests are advanced by Bernie's policies. Obviously it will never happen that way. And I will point out that one thing you're neglecting in your entirely valid point about political process and compromise and so on is that there will be input from many of these groups you're talking about as being "left behind" or "abandoned." Bernie let those BLM protesters onto the stage and changed his platform and messaging (not enough in my view, but some) after listening to what they had to say, remember. I think it's silly to say that these various constituencies will simply be shut out of any conversation around e.g. a single-payer health care system.
 
Last edited:
Of course I'm aware of this. Which is why I very specifically said that I cannot imagine a universal health care law that makes access to reproductive health care worse than it is now. If there really are people who place a higher priority on trashing the Hyde Amendment than on universal health care then I profoundly disagree with those people, and that's fine. What I think would be absolutely foolish of them, and where my criticisms would start applying, would be to oppose a plan for universal health care that doesn't include trashing the Hyde Amendment.

But it's not a binary, single-payer or no-Hyde-Amendment thing, because there are innumerable permutations of other possible outcomes. Like, for example, an ACA public option added in, along with no Hyde Amendment and expanded access to reproductive health provided as part of a revamped ACA. I agree with you, it is foolish to oppose good policy because it doesn't address one's own specific concerns, but we're talking about candidates, not policy. Given the large amount of uncertainty around what any significant change to health care is going to look like, it makes sense to vote for candidates who prove that they share one's own priorities.

It's not actually true that the material benefit of going to college rests entirely on getting a degree. There are other things involved- actual learning of skills, but mostly socializing and networking.

I also don't agree with your prediction viz. a college degree. The proliferation of degrees seems to just mean that many people with degrees end up underemployed in jobs that don't make any use of their education. But the main point here is the fact that colleges in the US act already to reinforce and reproduce white privilege! I'm not really seeing a good argument that free college will cause that situation to get worse - if it were true that society was stratifying into people with college degrees and the peons, you might have a point, but I know too many peons with college degrees to believe it.

Ah, but it is.

Since the Great Recession ended in 2009, college-educated workers have captured most of the new jobs and enjoyed pay gains. Non-college grads, by contrast, have faced dwindling job opportunities and an overall 3% decline in income, EPI's data shows.

"The post-Great Recession economy has divided the country along a fault line demarcated by college education," Anthony Carnevale, director of Georgetown University's Center on Education and the Workforce, said in a report last year.

College grads have long enjoyed economic advantages over Americans with less education. But as the disparity widens, it is doing so in ways that go beyond income, from homeownership to marriage to retirement. Education has become a dividing line that affects how Americans vote, the likelihood that they will own a home and their geographic mobility.
There is little reason to expect this trend to turn around. There are gradations of peons, I guess?

Also, I would classify socialization as an intangible, though extremely beneficial, benefit of going to college. Likewise, as a college dropout, one is going to be very hard-pressed to realize material benefit from any networking they may have done. Skills don't seem to get you far if you don't have that piece of paper.

The point of the question was to establish a hypothetical that would let us talk about whose interests are advanced by Bernie's policies. Obviously it will never happen that way. And I will point out that one thing you're neglecting in your entirely valid point about political process and compromise and so on is that there will be input from many of these groups you're talking about as being "left behind" or "abandoned." Bernie let those BLM protesters onto the stage and changed his platform and messaging (not enough in my view, but some) after listening to what they had to say, remember. I think it's silly to say that these various constituencies will simply be shut out of any conversation around e.g. a single-payer health care system.

If you recall, a major one of Bernie's policies was incorporated into the 2016 Democratic candidate's platform, and a significantly higher minimum wage was already part of it and had sort-of moved even higher. We now see a large and, in my opinion, very significant shift on single-payer happening within the next wave of potential Democratic presidential candidates, which should not be downplayed or ignored. Maybe if Bernie runs again, he revamps his platform and acknowledges its shortcomings. I'd be happy to support him if he did. But let's not just ignore the fact that he has already been listened to, and the party already moved towards him in the meantime.
 
Pretty much. They treated and still treat Trump as a reality TV star. While it's good that they've shone a light on every stupid thing he does, I've noticed they've begun covering complete non-issues the same way the cover his actual transgressions.
Made up example:
Trump blew his nose after meeting the Prime Minister of Australia! When will his disrespect end?

It's a ratings-and-click grabbing distraction. There's literally no other point to it. They are milking him for as many ad dollars as they can get. For every serious investigative journalist covering his dismantling of American society there is now a greater number of ad revenue generators cranking out genuine fake news to stoke continual outrage over everything he does. They are burning out the public on the subject to the point where I fear apathy will take over and we'll be consigned to 7 more years of him.

No amount of outrage will ever make his core abandon him and if we don't have a good candidate running against him in 2020, we're going to be stuck with him.
Quoted this from "Clown Car"...

Something that just hit me... is that this wouldn't have been possible in a country that has State-driven, rather than profit-driven news media. So we would never be able to do to Russia, what Russia did to us, precisely because of Russia's State-run news media. I don't know what that means, I'm not advocating State-run news, but it was an interesting epiphany.
 
Something that just hit me... is that this wouldn't have been possible in a country that has State-driven, rather than profit-driven news media. So we would never be able to do to Russia, what Russia did to us, precisely because of Russia's State-run news media. I don't know what that means, I'm not advocating State-run news, but it was an interesting epiphany.

This gave me an idea: I'd like to see a study about coverage of Trump from non-profit outlets like NPR or Democracy Now! If they were covering Trump the same way, and if they picked him up at a similar timeframe as the mainstream networks, then I would consider that evidence against my thesis that it's mainly the profit-motive driving the media to boost Trump they way they have done.
 
Back
Top Bottom