2020 US Election (Part Two)

[r16]

oh-kay , as one of those who repeatedly urge to get behind Biden to out vote and out power Trump , let me say it one more time . This is like the last time for you people to win elections and have some influence on the course and future of America , you Americans with the vote . lf Trump wins you will get no more elections , except the ones he will be winning by 98% . Do not count on your history and institutions and whatnot . Vote , because you might not be allowed to vote next time . Biden might be slowly or quickly decaying , his people might be same set of people from the Wall Street , he will naturally love the Kurds to start re-arming the seperatists whom your own laws and declarations and whatnot , even your Military (specifically those from the command structure for Europe , not the Centcom ones) define as terrorists ... also a firm expectation of Congregation once again given licence to back-stab , but them Democrats are still paying lip service to things , while Trump is not even bothering to . Do not even count on winning a new Civil War , because you will not be able to bring back the dead ... This is not a computer game !

so , yeah go and vote .

 

[Lexicus]

What Jimmy and progressives see is that the political options are both so bad that either way the election goes things will continue to sour at about the same pace for 80% of Americans. It is what Patine keeps bringing up and get regularly dogpiled for in this very thread.

What Jimmy and Patine never offer is an actual solution to this problem. And I don't think you've offered it either. Because "wake up and realize both parties are screwing you over" is not a solution. "Vote for Howie Hawkins" is not a solution.

 

[Estebonrober]

oh-kay , as one of those who repeatedly urge to get behind Biden to out vote and out power Trump , let me say it one more time . This is like the last time for you people to win elections and have some influence on the course and future of America , you Americans with the vote . lf Trump wins you will get no more elections , except the ones he will be winning by 98% . Do not count on your history and institutions and whatnot . Vote , because you might not be allowed to vote next time . Biden might be slowly or quickly decaying , his people might be same set of people from the Wall Street , he will naturally love the Kurds to start re-arming the seperatists whom your own laws and declarations and whatnot , even your Military (specifically those from the command structure for Europe , not the Centcom ones) define as terrorists ... also a firm expectation of Congregation once again given licence to back-stab , but them Democrats are still paying lip service to things , while Trump is not even bothering to . Do not even count on winning a new Civil War , because you will not be able to bring back the dead ... This is not a computer game !

so , yeah go and vote .

I'm not sure he lives long enough to see a third term or whatever but I take your point. The GOP over here seems to have little regard for the vote and thus would embrace permanent rule if they could grab it.

 

[Lexicus]

I'm not sure he lives long enough to see a third term or whatever but I take your point. The GOP over here seems to have little regard for the vote and thus would embrace permanent rule if they could grab it.

Yeah, again, Trump himself ain't so much the problem, the problem is his second term will allow the GOP to rig the system at every level. The two major parties will be competing over a shrinking pool of hard-right voters. The Democrats will be Nikki Haley and Ted Cruz, and the GOP will be David Duke.

 

[Ironsided]

Voting Howie Hawkins is with every passing day the better option left to save your soul after all milquetoast excuses and caving to legitimise the neoliberal Democratic party establishment despite their role to not include anything tangibly progressive from Bernies program but instead repeatedly help Trump screw over the people while posturing and signal fake resistance. Biden was on the record to want to not only maintain but to increase the defence budget just the other day.

 

[Lexicus]

Voting Howie Hawkins is with every passing day the better option left to save your soul after all milquetoast excuses and caving to legitimise the neoliberal Democratic party establishment despite their role to not include anything tangibly progressive from Bernies program but instead repeatedly help Trump screw over the people while posturing and signal fake resistance. Biden was on the record to want to not only maintain but to increase the defence budget just the other day.

Yeah, if your solution is "vote Howie Hawkins" then you have no solution. But then, your mention of my soul shows you aren't really interested in solutions, are you? Just in demonstrating how morally superior you are.

 

[Patine]

That is the core assumption and it is indeed a flawed one, but that's how most American voters think. I f I am wrong, then Americans would never have voted in Trump in the first place. Then again, the electoral college means rural voters in small states have greater say over urban voters. And the electoral boundaries are rigged, and so on and so on. Which then leads people to thinking that someone new who has no political experience like Trump will change all that, only for nothing to change.

Except for the sensationalist factor. Trump has long been a flamboyant celebrity before taking office - so, too, were Schwarzenegger and Ventura, even if they only became Governors. Celebrity candidates with no experience are now rapidly becoming common speculation with a strong sense of validity. The sensationalist celebrity factor, not a true reformist platform of meaning or value, getting Trump elected is the point your argument breaks down. Sanders, for his part, is NOT a sensationalist celebrity.

Yeah, if your solution is "vote Howie Hawkins" then you have no solution. But then, your mention of my soul shows you aren't really interested in solutions, are you? Just in demonstrating how morally superior you are.

Voting for EITHER Biden or Trump is not a solution. Voting for Trump is like cutting more flesh out of your wound out of sheer spite, while voting for Biden is like getting knock-out drunk to kill the pain from the wound, so you can forget about it for a while, as it festers and doesn't properly heal.

What Jimmy and Patine never offer is an actual solution to this problem. And I don't think you've offered it either. Because "wake up and realize both parties are screwing you over" is not a solution. "Vote for Howie Hawkins" is not a solution.

I have offered a solution. Several times. Make a huge grassroots, political movement and vote both major, failed, criminal, sellout, and treasonous parties out of power in the SAME election, then, shortly afterward, write a new Constitution for the modern day and to empower the common people and hold government responsible to the voters through a Convention elected by popular will of the nation. Of course, this starts with realizing that kowtowing to, and bootlicking, the two major parties are NEVER going to be in the best interests of roughly 80% of the American population.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Yeah, again, Trump himself ain't so much the problem, the problem is his second term will allow the GOP to rig the system at every level. The two major parties will be competing over a shrinking pool of hard-right voters. The Democrats will be Nikki Haley and Ted Cruz, and the GOP will be David Duke.

We're closer to a tipping point than a lot of people think. I maintain that if Bernie had just looked like Gavin Newsom, he would have Obama'd Hillary. If Warren had run, I think she would have also. If AOC had been old enough and run she would have won this cycle. Biden is basically a holding pattern to get the country stabilized and then begin attacking him from the left to drag the window back leftwards.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Voting for EITHER Biden or Trump is not a solution. Voting for Trump is like cutting more flesh out of your wound out of sheer spite, while voting for Biden is like getting knock-out drunk to kill the pain from the wound, so you can forget about it for a while, as it festers and doesn't properly heal.

In this analogy, voting for Howie Hawkins is like cutting more flesh out of your wound out of sheer spite.

And this

I have offered a solution. Several times. Make a huge grassroots, political movement and vote both major, failed, criminal, sellout, and treasonous parties out of power in the SAME election, then, shortly afterward, write a new Constitution for the modern day and to empower the common people and hold government responsible to the voters through a Convention elected by popular will of the nation. Of course, this starts with realizing that kowtowing to, and bootlicking, the two major parties are NEVER going to be in the best interests of roughly 80% of the American population.

is dreaming that your wound would heal if only a really great hospital suddenly burst up around you

 

[Lexicus]

is dreaming that your wound would heal if only a really great hospital suddenly burst up around you

Brilliant analogy, I have nothing to add. No real solution. Instead of tying a tourniquet around your arm, start working toward your medical degree so you can train doctors....

 

[Narz]

Moderator Action: I believe that I already said that this is not a video thread. All posts must contain text for people to engage with. ~ Arakhor

 

[Estebonrober]

Is it really that hard for you to type out one sentence?

 

[Patine]

In this analogy, voting for Howie Hawkins is like cutting more flesh out of your wound out of sheer spite.

I wasn't the one talking about Howie Hawkins. I don't even know who he is.

is dreaming that your wound would heal if only a really great hospital suddenly burst up around you

Brilliant analogy, I have nothing to add. No real solution. Instead of tying a tourniquet around your arm, start working toward your medical degree so you can train doctors....

You asked for A solution, which I provided. You didn't say said solution had to be easy, had to NOT involve motivation large amounts of your fellow citizens to wake up to the soft tyranny of both parties and actually start caring about their country, it's true viability and livibility, it's advancement, and it's future, and had to actually follow the electoral trap of voting in ways that only continually empower the Duopoly. You simply asked for a solution. But since you obviously had those hidden and unstated qualifiers attached, ones which made any true solution impossible by their constraints, and dismiss and ridicule my solution for not conforming to them, I call you out on your disingenuous, bad faith question in the first place.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

But if a mad crank from a neighboring country on the internet brilliant writer thoroughly educated on the subject can't cause the US to abandon the duopoly what chance does a mere citizen have?

 

[innonimatu]

The easiest solution is indeed to withdraw support from the neoliberal democrats until their party crashed and burns completely. Only then will the rats leave the ship. And then there will be space for it becoming and rebuilding as a leftwing party. Currently they poison the ground where it could take root. How many decades more must they play the "lesser evil" farce until you get that?

Trying to work with the neoliberals in any way is a losing game. Sanders and Corbyn showed it again by trying to do so and getting undermined and defeated. And at the same time their opponents showed that not playing along with the "moderate center" in electoral politics can indeed be a winning strategy.

Labour should have been split, the left-wing leadership showing the door to all those who were against it. The democrats should have split, the ones not represented by the DNC leaving en masse and doing a new party - hey had the numbers, finance and organization to do it. If people don't have the courage to do this because "splitting we'd lose," the it's up to the public to prove to them that being cowards you lose also. It's the only way for politicians in those positions to grow a spine.

 

[Berzerker]

Is it really that hard for you to type out one sentence?

Trump agreed to have Joe Rogan moderate a presidential debate

 

[Zardnaar]

What Jimmy and Patine never offer is an actual solution to this problem. And I don't think you've offered it either. Because "wake up and realize both parties are screwing you over" is not a solution. "Vote for Howie Hawkins" is not a solution.

Pretty much, even the Communists here are offering solutions. May not agree with what they're saying but at least it's something and I can respect that.

My solutions tend more towards what I think is achievable with the resources available and what you can actually do and it's going to take several decades.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The easiest solution is indeed to withdraw support from the neoliberal democrats until their party crashed and burns completely. Only then will the rats leave the ship. And then there will be space for it becoming and rebuilding as a leftwing party. Currently they poison the ground where it could take root. How many decades more must they play the "lesser evil" farce until you get that?

Trying to work with the neoliberals in any way is a losing game. Sanders and Corbyn showed it again by trying to do so and getting undermined and defeated. And at the same time their opponents showed that not playing along with the "moderate center" in electoral politics can indeed be a winning strategy.

Labour should have been split, the left-wing leadership showing the door to all those who were against it. The democrats should have split, the ones not represented by the DNC leaving en masse and doing a new party - hey had the numbers, finance and organization to do it. If people don't have the courage to do this because "splitting we'd lose," the it's up to the public to prove to them that being cowards you lose also. It's the only way for politicians in those positions to grow a spine.

Sanders didn't get defeated because of "undermining neoliberals." Sanders got defeated because he is supported by approximately 15% of the electorate...which in the US doesn't win him squat and never will.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Trump agreed to have Joe Rogan moderate a presidential debate

Agreed to? Or proposed? Don't news organizations conduct the debates?

 

[amadeus]

I recently saw a piece in the Washington Post that said Sen. Sanders was pushing Vice Pres. Biden to be more progressive.

Which to me, I kind of did a double-take; Sanders’ supporters routinely allege that the Democratic Party threw him under the bus, but then Sanders comes out and he’s pushing Biden.

I think it’s a two-way street; Sanders’ supporters shouldn’t be surprised if the DNC works around him if Sanders is going to be going around upsetting the apple cart.

I also like semicolons.