2020 US Election (Part Two)

[Birdjaguar]

When she calls me, outright and brazenly, a "Fascist sympathizer and enabler," in a sincere and non-ironic, non-rhetorical way, and refused to back down from, or apologize for that, that's where she crossed the line as far as I was concerned. If THOSE are the kind of vile tactics she cherishes, then it kills ALL integrity of anything she says or promotes. And any audience who thinks that kind of vile crap is acceptable, and to be defended, take a big hit in their own integrity of anything they say here. Such slanderous and vile insults and false labels to make points are indeed a trademark of Donald Trump - regardless of how much else may be different between them.

If you know its not true then just say so and move on. Just like there are some jobs you shouldn't take, there are some arguments that cannot be won. Not having the last word is OK too.

 

[Takhisis]

Nope. I have no idea what's gonna happen of course but I can easily envision the Democrats just getting outflanked on the healthcare issue and looking like morons.

I was just 1000% helpfully pointing out the difference between assure and ensure…

 

[Ironsided]

Feel better, because you most likely aren't near as close to agreeing with the nonsense Inno is posting as you felt like you were. As much as D'ump might like to make some kind of "M4A was my idea all along" play, it actually takes more than a tweet to make it so.

26:45 into this official video. Seems he’s lining up 100 Bn on testing and diagnosing the uninsured and “a portion” of another signed and avaliable 100 Bn for treatment. This is no M4A, but it is also more than a tweet. Dems need more than Hidin' Biden in response.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

26:45 into this official video. Seems he’s lining up 100 Bn on testing and diagnosing the uninsured and “a portion” of another signed and avaliable 100 Bn for treatment. This is no M4A, but it is also more than a tweet. Dems need more than Hidin' Biden in response.

LOL...that's the announcement of the CARES act...provisions written by the Democrats. Yes, if someone is MINDLESSLY STUPID and just WANTS MORE THAN ANYTHING TO BELIEVE THE WORST ABOUT DEMOCRATS and is therefore willing TO TAKE TRUMP AT HIS WORD WHEN HE LIES HIS ASS OFF then sure, you have a really really strong point. But the only people I know of who are like that other than hard core Trumpists, actually, are Swedish so they can't vote in our elections.

 

[Ironsided]

You seem a bit overly stressed about this issue Tim. Maybe you should lay down a little, maybe sleep on it. The US Dems are factually terrible for working class and uninsured and only by comparison to the Reps a viable choice. There are new briefings and directives every day and I assume there will be more in the coming days. It’s however clear that Trump is going to provide free care for uninsured under the Medicare model.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

If it wounds you that much @Patine then I'll rescind the accusation of being a fascist enabler, but I do still think there is a chance that some of your positions can have the unintentional side effects of allowing fascists the oxygen and space needed to survive, specifically when it comes to media.

If that makes you uncomfortable then maybe you need to reconsider your stance, giving bigots airtime, even if they're debunked, spreads their views to a wider audience than if they were just ignored and blacklisted by the media.

Compare Alex Jones reach before and after his fall; he is the equivalent of the lunatic on the street screaming conspiracy but he has a platform and is more dangerous as a result.

 

[mitsho]

You should be thankful, @Ironsided, as Trump is shifting the overton window hard to the left with this tactic. Meaning the Democrats will ask for more and if they get elected will have to deliver somehow.

 

[Patine]

If it wounds you that much @Patine then I'll rescind the accusation of being a fascist enabler, but I do still think there is a chance that some of your positions can have the unintentional side effects of allowing fascists the oxygen and space needed to survive, specifically when it comes to media.

In that way, you're insinuating I have significantly and greatly more political sway, clout, and influence than you say I allege you of having. In the end, as it currently stands, I don't either of us is going to inadvertently, and despite our best intentions, allow horrible political agendas and actors to have much freer reign. I assure you, even as a social worker, I am as much a "little person," - in the socio-political moniker, as you are.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

You seem a bit overly stressed about this issue Tim. Maybe you should lay down a little, maybe sleep on it. The US Dems are factually terrible for working class and uninsured and only by comparison to the Reps a viable choice. There are new briefings and directives every day and I assume there will be more in the coming days. It’s however clear that Trump is going to provide free care for uninsured under the Medicare model.

Like I said, clear to morons. Please, give us a rundown of "the US medicare model" as understood in Sweden. Then demonstrate where Trump "makes clear" that he intends to follow such a model, or explain the similarities between his carefully laid out plan and the model as you have explained it.

Ah, screw the sarcasm. You're talking out your ass here and it is blatantly obvious to anyone who is paying attention.

You should be thankful, @Ironsided, as Trump is shifting the overton hard to the left with this tactic. Meaning the Democrats will ask for more and if they get elected will have to deliver somehow.

Not really, unfortunately. He's claiming credit for a pretty basic provision of a disaster relief act. I should have known better than to get interested when Ironsided trumped up this nonsense that Trump was actually talking about doing something. The CARES act is old news, but there are the desperate that want to help Trump claim credit as if he was doing something new.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Our respective views on how the media should treat bigoted actors cannot be reconciled whilst you maintain that they should still have the "right" to be platformed.

If you can't see that allowing fascists or fascist lite enablers does more harm than good by exposing a larger segment of society to their ideas then that's a failing off your worldview, not mine.

I see it with trans issues, issues of race etc; the opposing side does not need to be heard, especially not when historically it has had the government's implicit support either through ideological backing or through a failure to tackle those issues head on.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

In that way, you're insinuating I have significantly and greatly more political sway, clout, and influence than you say I allege you of having. In the end, as it currently stands, I don't either of us is going to inadvertently, and despite our best intentions, allow horrible political agendas and actors to have much freer reign. I assure you, even as a social worker, I am as much a "little person," - in the socio-political moniker, as you are.

We have a lot of "little people" who vote Republican and collectively do empower Trump, who in turn has actively encouraged white supremacists and other bigots to get much more active. Since you are a Canadian 'just a little person' you are more harmless than them in any event since you can't vote for Trump, and I for one am accepting that you wouldn't vote for Trump anyway...even though this latest round of flailing started when you jumped in to stick up for a definite Trumpist.

 

[mitsho]

Not really, unfortunately. He's claiming credit for a pretty basic provision of a disaster relief act. I should have known better than to get interested when Ironsided trumped up this nonsense that Trump was actually talking about doing something. The CARES act is old news, but there are the desperate that want to help Trump claim credit as if he was doing something new.

But that is the only thing Trump ever does: claiming credit. (And waving through judge candidates and dismanteling bureaucracy). And he‘s good at it. You may know, but you don‘t matter. Who matters are the politically disinterested masses in swing states. If they only hear Trumps side and then the other guy comes around with „well actually...“, they will not be swayed as that easily seems condescending. I don’t think you can just wave it off, i do think the democrats will need a proposal of some sort. We will see, i‘m just saying this is about rhethorics and you need good competent politicians in that regard.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I just want to also say that it's a bit difficult for me to sit here and take the accusation of espousing vigilante justice via thuggery seriously when said "vigilantes" are doing a better job of protecting me than the local law enforcement agencies ever have; perhaps the question should by why are some groups so far down the social ladder that they're forced to rely on "illegitimate" forms of protection?

If I wasn't in the position of being targeted, Harrassed and assaulted maybe I wouldn't need the likes of Antifa, no?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

But that is the only thing Trump ever does: claiming credit. (And waving through judge candidates and dismanteling bureaucracy). And he‘s good at it. You may know, but you don‘t matter. Who matters are the politically disinterested masses in swing states. If they only hear Trumps side and then the other guy comes around with „well actually...“, they will not be swayed as that easily seems condescending. I don’t think you can just wave it off, i do think the democrats will need a proposal of some sort. We will see, i‘m just saying this is about rhethorics and you need good competent politicians in that regard.

Meh. I think it is way more than just me. I have an in house Republican, who works at a Republican dominated workplace, and she keeps me up to date on what the fringe Republicans/people who call themselves independent but reliably vote GOP are hearing. Suffice to say that Trump's "look at my great task force" daily presentations are not being paid a whole lot of attention. Things that are buried 26 minutes in are only viewed as hot meat to be slavered over by the genuine Trumpist faithful...oh, and Ironsided.

 

[Ironsided]

I’m not saying Trump is only doing this for the wellbeing of Americans. I know he’s mostly doing it to appear better. But he’s lining up to see if he can outflank the Dems and the lame ass Dem leadership needs to get a move on. Let’s see how your strategical mastermind Nancy responds, whom you trust so much. Hopefully well, but I’m not putting any bets on that.

Like Mitsho noted, I’m in this discussion to pressure the argument Dems should be for working people until people make sure they are held accountable for that. You are correct in that I don’t know the inns and outs of the US Medicare plan but I have the general idea down and it’s in many parts a better plan than we have in Sweden especially with the amendments Sanders propose it would blow ours out of the water. Imagine we could use the US as an example in our national debate for once?

 

[Zardnaar]

Meh. I think it is way more than just me. I have an in house Republican, who works at a Republican dominated workplace, and she keeps me up to date on what the fringe Republicans/people who call themselves independent but reliably vote GOP are hearing. Suffice to say that Trump's "look at my great task force" daily presentations are not being paid a whole lot of attention. Things that are buried 26 minutes in are only viewed as hot meat to be slavered over by the genuine Trumpist faithful...oh, and Ironsided.

A few Trumpists I know on FB seem to regret it now.

They're not dedicated Trumpist but bought into the MAGA thing.

They were dedicated GoPers.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I’m not saying Trump is only doing this for the wellbeing of Americans. I know he’s mostly doing it to appear better. But he’s lining up to see if he can outflank the Dems and the lame ass Dem leadership needs to get a move on. Let’s see how your strategical mastermind Nancy responds, whom you trust so much. Hopefully well, but I’m not putting any bets on that.

I only said that about her responding because your initial blathering was so misleading. IF Trump had, as you said, made some sort of move THEN there would be a countermove. Since he didn't actually DO anything there is no countermove to be expected. I should have checked before responding to your typically bald faced lies touting the greatness of Trump.

 

[Patine]

Our respective views on how the media should treat bigoted actors cannot be reconciled whilst you maintain that they should still have the "right" to be platformed.

If you can't see that allowing fascists or fascist lite enablers does more harm than good by exposing a larger segment of society to their ideas then that's a failing off your worldview, not mine.

I see it with trans issues, issues of race etc; the opposing side does not need to be heard, especially not when historically it has had the government's implicit support either through ideological backing or through a failure to tackle those issues head on.

Once you start censoring people from all media access, by arbitrary, unilateral, unaccountable, unappealable, and often ill-defined views of their beliefs, such as you effectively proposed, you might as well eliminate any media not controlled by a single, narrowly-focused, and one-agenda group who can - and will, overtime - succumb to the corrupt to the corruption the absolute nature of being effectively HUMAN BEINGS, in general - you'd effectively reach the point of a Oceanian Ministry of Truth in Orwell's "1984." You have given no assurances of any checks or limits to this censoring power, or appeals for being wrongly targeted, or whether non-White hate groups also known for misogyny and anti-LGBTQ, anti-Asian, and anti-Semitic rhetoric, like Nation of Islam, as good example, and your friend on these forums even said "it was telling I would even ask," as the only answer she gave when I brought the issue up. The complete of lack of concern for these worries and issues I have about such a system, and being intimated my values are wanting for each asking, makes me absolutely not in support of such a thing that could - and almost certainly would be no better than Fascist-controlled media in the countries that were REALLY run by ideological Fascists, in truth, in the '20's to '40's.

I just want to also say that it's a bit difficult for me to sit here and take the accusation of espousing vigilante justice via thuggery seriously when said "vigilantes" are doing a better job of protecting me than the local law enforcement agencies ever have; perhaps the question should by why are some groups so far down the social ladder that they're forced to rely on "illegitimate" forms of protection?

If I wasn't in the position of being targeted, Harrassed and assaulted maybe I wouldn't need the likes of Antifa, no?

No, they're not better. They're still violent criminals, and JUST AS BAD and worthy of the same criminal consequences as those violently preying upon you. They often target people based on rumour or reputation, with no due process or self-imposed limits, except for the cowardice typical of ALL thugs, and lacking in any honourable conduct. They are no better than left-wing Brownshirts.

 

[Zardnaar]

I think what Patine means the cure is worse than the disease.

The article I posted all that time ago was sure deplatform the Nazis but it made things more violent.

So the danger to Cloud actually increases by deplatforming. It's because Nazi gonna Nazi but if you push them into the darkweb or whatever the rhetoric increases.

 

[cardgame]

I have a lot of faith in her as a political strategist, and the strategy called for here is pretty obvious.

How about that impeachment strategy of waiting for the most braindead and easily-spun 'democrats are corrupt and covering for one of their own' scenario?