2020 US Election (Part Two)

[Naskra]

The New York Draft Riots in 1863.

Not seeing the forest here. The entire Civil War was fought against civilians. The Confederacy was not a recognized belligerent, hence the Confederate soldiers were all civilians.

 

[Lexicus]

Not seeing the forest here. The entire Civil War was fought against civilians. The Confederacy was not a recognized belligerent, hence the Confederate soldiers were all civilians.

While it's true the Confederacy wasn't a recognized belligerent, it is also true that the Union demonstrably abided by the contemporary laws of war in the treatment of Confederate soldiers (including formally treating them as POWs, and engaging in negotiations with the Confederate civil and military authorities over formal prisoner exchanges).

 

[Timsup2nothin]

No it's not. The Constitution itself has no language to that effect. There is, however, the Insurrection Act which specifically says the president can deploy the military domestically to put down a rebellion or insurrection as long as he can show that such a rebellion is beyond the capacity of civilian authorities to deal with. Now I already stated that Trump's case for invoking said act is dubious at best. However, to say that the military cannot be used domestically against US citizens is factually incorrect.

You were wrong. You were also wrong in your claim that there is no actual precedent for the military being legally deployed to suppress riots. Unless you are going to argue the deployment of federal troops in the New York Draft Riots were an illegal action taken by the government.

It's okay to admit that before I brought them up you weren't even aware of either the New York Draft Riots or the Insurrection Act. Especially since it is apparent you weren't aware of them with your bold statements that federal troops can never be deployed against US citizens (seriously, it's in the oath man) and that there exists no precedent for such a thing in the history of the US.

Keep digging man, you're almost to Nuremberg.

 

[Patine]

While it's true the Confederacy wasn't a recognized belligerent, it is also true that the Union demonstrably abided by the contemporary laws of war in the treatment of Confederate soldiers (including formally treating them as POWs, and engaging in negotiations with the Confederates over formal prisoner exchanges).

The Confederate States of America, much like the Vermont Republic, Republic of Rhodesia, State of Hyderabad, Kuban Cossack State, Northern Mountain Republic and, 100 years later in the same location, Emirate of Ickeria, Pridnestrovie Republic of Moldavia (Transnistria), Luhansk People's Republic, Donetsk People's Republic, Republic of Abkhazia, Republic of South Ossetia-Alania, Artsakh Republic, Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, Kosovo, the Palestine National Autheority (especially in the Gaza Strip), Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic, and Principality of Sealand, was never officially recognized as sovereign nation by any actual established sovereign nation on earth contemporary to it's age of de facto existence, ESPECIALLY not by the Lincoln Administration. It is only truly recognized as a nation retrospectively, in historiography.

 

[Lexicus]

The Confederate States of America, much like the Vermont Republic, Republic of Rhodesia, State of Hyderabad, Kuban Cossack State, Northern Mountain Republic and, 100 years later in the same location, Emirate of Ickeria, Pridnestrovie Republic of Moldavia (Transnistria), Luhansk People's Republic, Donetsk People's Republic, Republic of Abkhazia, Republic of South Ossetia-Alania, Artsakh Republic, Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, Kosovo, the Palestine National Autheority (especially in the Gaza Strip), Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic, and Principality of Sealand, was never officially recognized as sovereign nation by any actual established sovereign nation on earth contemporary to it's age of de facto existence, ESPECIALLY not by the Lincoln Administration. It is only truly recognized as a nation retrospectively, in historiography.

For further reading:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dix–Hill_Cartel

The Dix–Hill Cartel was the first official system for exchanging prisoners during the American Civil War. It was signed by Union Major General John A. Dix and Confederate Major General D. H. Hill at Haxall's Landing on the James River in Virginia on July 22, 1862.

The agreement established a scale of equivalents for captured officers to be exchanged for fixed numbers of enlisted men, and agents from each side were appointed to conduct the exchanges at particular locations. Prisoners could also be released on parole.

 

[Berzerker]

the president can have the military protect federal property from rioters

or Ufologists storming area 51

 

[Commodore]

Keep digging man, you're almost to Nuremberg.

See this is how I know you know you are wrong. When you know you're right you take great pleasure in going into great detail about how wrong the other person is. When you know you are wrong, you throw out what you believe are witty one-liners in an attempt to disengage without admitting you were wrong.

Which I guess could be considered an admission that you were wrong. So...thank you for being mature I guess.

 

[Arakhor]

Moderator Action: Stop bickering in public. Thank you.

 

[Patine]

For further reading:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dix–Hill_Cartel

If it needed a special, out-of-the-ordinary agreement to arrange, it's OBVIOUS the Union Government and Army didn't view themselves as fighting a conventional enemy - like a recognized sovereign nation they saw with any such legitimacy, or they would have just defaulted to the prisoner of war conventions they had observed in the War of 1812 and the Mexican War.

 

[Socrates99]

See this is how I know you know you are wrong. When you know you're right you take great pleasure in going into great detail about how wrong the other person is. When you know you are wrong, you throw out what you believe are witty one-liners in an attempt to disengage without admitting you were wrong.

Which I guess could be considered an admission that you were wrong. So...thank you for being mature I guess.

Yeah, I've been on the receiving end of that. I'll concur.

 

[Lexicus]

If it needed a special, out-of-the-ordinary agreement to arrange, it's OBVIOUS the Union Government and Army didn't view themselves as fighting a conventional enemy - like a recognized sovereign nation they saw with any such legitimacy, or they would have just defaulted to the prisoner of war conventions they had observed in the War of 1812 and the Mexican War.

Okay, but I never claimed that the Union government regarded the Confederacy as a sovereign nation or a conventional enemy. I was responding to a post which claimed, falsely, that the Union government regarded Confederate soldiers as civilians.

Note that the prisoner exchanges broke down not because the Union government was unwilling to treat Confederate soldiers as POWs, but because the Confederacy insisted on treating captured black Union soldiers as revolting slaves, subject to summary execution.

Now, to move on to the actual thread topic...

I got my application for a mail-in ballot in NJ a few weeks ago and I plan to fill it out and turn it in by the end of the week. I'm still not sure whether I'll actually vote for Biden since he's gonna win NJ no matter what.

 

[Naskra]

I was responding to a post which claimed, falsely, that the Union government regarded Confederate soldiers as civilians.

Just learn to read the text. Any subtext you imagine is invariably wrong.

 

[Lexicus]

hence the Confederate soldiers were all civilians.

There's the text. Are you engaging in competition with the President to determine who can tell the most brazen lie?

 

[Zardnaar]

CSA fielded conventional armies, they weren't exactly guerillas although I'm sure there were elements if that in places.

Protesters and rioters don't require the army. Rioters I can understand the national guard.

Easiest way to avoid riots is don't give them a reason to. Ambulance at top of cliff not bottom.

But America ye ha.

 

[Naskra]

There's the text.

You need to find the part about the Union government. It is my claim about the soldiers' status, no one else's. Prisoner exchange is irrelevant to this.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

the president can have the military protect federal property from rioters

or Ufologists storming area 51

Military defending a military base is pretty clear cut. Other federal property is less so since there is no shortage of federal law enforcement tasked with that responsibility.

 

[Lexicus]

You need to find the part about the Union government. It is my claim about the soldiers' status, no one else's. Prisoner exchange is irrelevant to this.

When you said, "The Confederacy was not a recognized belligerent," exactly which entity was or was not recognizing the Confederacy as a belligerent?

 

[Patine]

CSA fielded conventional armies, they weren't exactly guerillas although I'm sure there were elements if that in places.

Protesters and rioters don't require the army. Rioters I can understand the national guard.

Easiest way to avoid riots is don't give them a reason to. Ambulance at top of cliff not bottom.

But America ye ha.

Many of the other unrecognized nations I listed above fielded (and field) conventional armies, even sometimes including armoured vehicles, patrol boats, and military aircraft nowadays. The Lincoln Administration, though they may have made agreements such as Dix-Hill out of sheer pragmatism, did not regard the Confederacy as a legal and sovereign nation, and viewed it's army as an insurgency and rebellion. All the official records of the day indicate this, as does the "Johnny Reb," moniker given by Union soldiers to Confederate soldiers as purjorative and taunt. "Reb," stands for "rebel."

 

[Socrates99]

Okay, but I never claimed that the Union government regarded the Confederacy as a sovereign nation or a conventional enemy. I was responding to a post which claimed, falsely, that the Union government regarded Confederate soldiers as civilians.

Note that the prisoner exchanges broke down not because the Union government was unwilling to treat Confederate soldiers as POWs, but because the Confederacy insisted on treating captured black Union soldiers as revolting slaves, subject to summary execution.

Now, to move on to the actual thread topic...

I got my application for a mail-in ballot in NJ a few weeks ago and I plan to fill it out and turn it in by the end of the week. I'm still not sure whether I'll actually vote for Biden since he's gonna win NJ no matter what.

I've decided my support is most important on election day. Generally voting times are pretty good where I'm at. Every election day vote is going to be important.

Holding my nose while I do it. I hope the fudger holds to his promise of instituting the buy American order. That's the only thing that really garnered my support for the douche over the turd sandwich.

 

[Zardnaar]

Many of the other unrecognized nations I listed above fielded (and field) conventional armies, even sometimes including armoured vehicles, patrol boats, and military aircraft nowadays. The Lincoln Administration, though they may have made agreements such as Dix-Hill out of sheer pragmatism, did not regard the Confederacy as a legal and sovereign nation, and viewed it's army as an insurgency and rebellion. All the official records of the day indicate this, as does the "Johnny Reb," moniker given by Union soldiers to Confederate soldiers as purjorative and taunt. "Reb," stands for "rebel."

I know but for the most part they fought a conventional war.

Makes surrendering easier espicially if your whole unit surrenders. Guerilla warfare tends to get very dirty. They don't fight conventionally so soldiers aren't that inclined to take prisoners.