2020 US Election (Part Two)

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This is interesting wording. By the terminology, they're speaking as though the President governs by decree, like Trump speaks, and that inevitable deals, compromises, or changes to the core idea to get it passed through Congress just won't be an issue or a problem that will come up at all. Such naïve and imperious phrasing of policy, which, as I've said, Trump has already become infamous, is "interesting."
Now see this is a little unfair, coming from you. What I mean is, for all the digital ink you spill bemoaning the (paraphrasing) milquetoast, disingenuous, sham, etc., half measures taken by the politicians in power and all the calls you make for sweeping change... when you see a politician/administration making bold sweeping promises for policies that actually would usher in some of the changes you claim to want... you all of a sudden turn into a pragmatic centrist complaining "That's not practical! How do they expect to get that through Congress?? What about the deals, deals deal?!? So naïve!" Dude WTH? Who are you and what have you done with Patine?:confused:

I'm going to assume that you are speaking in good faith here and not just being contrarian for its own sake. If I am correct, then you've contradicted yourself without realizing it. Now that I've pointed it out, do you see it?
 
In the Star Wars movies, Yoda lives 900 years by detaching himself personally and emotionally from the Galaxy and all people in it and focusing on the Greater Oneness of the Force, thus emulating the attitude cultivated by many very senior and accomplished Buddhist monks. But I'm not sure that would be for everyone...
I always thought his species was just exceptionally long-lived by nature. But since nobody really knows Yoda's species, its hard to tell. Maybe we'll find out in The Mandalorian, praised be its name :clap:
 
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Now see this is a little unfair, coming from you. What I mean is, for all the digital ink you spill bemoaning the (paraphrasing) milquetoast, disingenuous, sham, etc., half measures taken by the politicians in power and all the calls you make for sweeping change... when you see a politician/administration making bold sweeping promises for policies that actually would usher in some of the changes you claim to want... you all of a sudden turn into a pragmatic centrist complaining "That's not practical! How do they expect to get that through Congress?? What about the deals, deals deal?!? So naïve!" Dude WTH? Who are you and what have you done with Patine?:confused:

I'm going to assume that you are speaking in good faith here and not just being contrarian for its own sake. If I am correct, then you've contradicted yourself without realizing it. Now that I've pointed it out, do you see it?

You misunderstand perspective and context. I'm an independent ideologue, a computer-chair revolutionary, an incendiary blogger with a formal blogspace, a highly opinionated and over-educated jackass who believes I have the answers. I'm certainly not unique - not nearly so - in this role. But I, like everyone else in this role, have no power, only a lot of suggestions, complaints, and ideas. And I've never actually claimed or pretended to have power (in fact, my powerlessness has publicly aggrieved me at times). Thus, such bold and sweeping terminology by ME and others with a similar role and concept, is to be expected and is part of the package. Were Karl Marx and Ayn Rand any different in their writings, for example. But those who DO hold power, or have a very real chance of gaining, SHOULD be more responsible and show more of an appropriate and sincere viewpoint of affairs when they speak. Donald Trump's irresponsible, uninformed, egotistical, and out-of-proportion way of speaking about his office and real powers and responsibilities, from his office and position of power, has become one of his many hallmark negative traits. It would not be wise for Biden and Harris to start emulating that very bad habit, even if not as flamboyantly.
 
Watching everyone die over and over. It's rough on vets where we've looked and it happens pretty fast even in young men, the generally least reflective of us all. Fighter pilots in WWII are usually the easiest example. They were high profile enough to be romantic, suffered high casualty percentages. So much so that the veteran pilot that stopped making friends with rookies is a cliche. Yeah, entropy's hooks aren't just deep, they're fundamental.
 
You misunderstand perspective and context. I'm an independent ideologue, a computer-chair revolutionary, an incendiary blogger with a formal blogspace, a highly opinionated and over-educated jackass who believes I have the answers. I'm certainly not unique - not nearly so - in this role. But I, like everyone else in this role, have no power, only a lot of suggestions, complaints, and ideas. And I've never actually claimed or pretended to have power (in fact, my powerlessness has publicly aggrieved me at times). Thus, such bold and sweeping terminology by ME and others with a similar role and concept, is to be expected and is part of the package. Were Karl Marx and Ayn Rand any different in their writings, for example. But those who DO hold power, or have a very real chance of gaining, SHOULD be more responsible and show more of an appropriate and sincere viewpoint of affairs when they speak. Donald Trump's irresponsible, uninformed, egotistical, and out-of-proportion way of speaking about his office and real powers and responsibilities, from his office and position of power, has become one of his many hallmark negative traits. It would not be wise for Biden and Harris to start emulating that very bad habit, even if not as flamboyantly.
I gotta say... This seems like a pretty longwinded way of saying "Don't mind me, I'm FOS and I know it.":p
 
I wonder if this connect to the drop in ratings for actual WWE over the same period?

If you're getting your fix of choreographed conflict-spectacle from CNN, you don't need Monday Night Raw.

:lol: Good question.
 
I gotta say... This seems like a pretty longwinded way of saying "Don't mind me, I'm FOS and I know it.":p

No, that's what quite what I'm saying, but another disingenuous attempt to turn my words on me in place again. You, and several others here, just couldn't last two posts in a debate or argument without bringing out the disingenuous, presumptuous, slanderous, and putting-words-in-other-people's-mouths-and-arbitrarily-assigning-other-people's-motives-falsely tactics. You, and several others here, just get nowhere honestly. A politician's mentality and lack of integrity without a politician's power.
 
OK, this thread has somehow become a thread where we discuss Patine's chances of reproducing biologically and Berzerker going on about the war against drugs, uhm…

A Supreme Court Fight Might Be Exactly What America Needs
From the courts to Congress, we might need fewer embalming norms and more room for victories and defeat.
By Ross Douthat

Spoiler :
In the brief window between the death of Ruth Bader Ginsburg and the announcements from Republicans like Mitt Romney and Cory Gardner that they would consider a replacement before the November election, several writers floated a grand bargain, in which Republican and Democratic senators would agree to de-escalate, trading a G.O.P. promise not to confirm a Ginsburg replacement before the election for a Democratic promise not to pack the court if Joe Biden wins.

The goal of these proposals was a kind of stabilizing stasis, in which the balance of the court would remain where it stood before Ginsburg’s passing — tilted 5 to 4 toward Republican appointees, with more complicated divisions case by case. And in online and offline conversations, the idea was extended to encompass a larger truce — no Republican replacement for Ginsburg, and no radical moves of any kind from Democrats in a Biden presidency, meaning no abolition of the filibuster and no partisan push to add new Democratic-leaning states.

The people who floated these ideas were mostly, like me, conservatives who opposed Donald Trump’s election. So I know how they think, and in the evening hours after Ginsburg’s death lit up social media I was thinking similarly: A Supreme Court seat isn’t worth the Republic collapsing around our ears.

But I woke up the next morning feeling differently. In certain ways, yes, American politics needs stabilization, reason, calm. It certainly needs a president who actually tries to preside over the nation, instead of flouting every norm of decency, treating half the country as his enemy, and delegitimizing an American election because he fears he might not win.

In other ways, though, it is precisely our stalemates and our stasis, a “stability” created by gridlock and dysfunction, that has maddened our debates, made Trumpism possible and hysteria the norm.

In the rhetorical arena, the world of cable news and social media, there’s gasoline enough for every fire. But in the arena of policy, where judges and legislators and presidents and voters interact, we may need to experience a little more shock therapy, the curative fever that comes when frozen conflicts finally heat up.

Consider abortion, the issue that hangs over the looming confirmation battle as it has hung over confirmation battles for decades. America doesn’t have an abortion settlement: We have a permanent conflict that’s been prevented from resolving itself because it’s been artificially frozen from above.

We did have a decade of normal political debate on the issue in the 1960s and early 1970s, with elections and lawmaking and shifting, unsettled coalitions. But Roe v. Wade put an end to that, locking us into a status quo in which the issue warps judicial politics, public opinion barely changes — stuck at around 20 percent pro-life, 30 percent pro-choice, 50 percent unsure — and the anti-abortion movement cycles through failed attempt after failed attempt to change an anti-democratic ruling by democratic means.

This is a situation that cries out for a breakthrough, a change, not 50 more years of John Roberts and his center-right successors punting on the issue. As an abortion opponent, I want to believe that were the issue opened more to democratic debate, the small group of pro-life states would be able to create a model that restricted abortion and also supported pregnant women, which in turn would shift public opinion in a pro-life direction nationwide.

However, I will readily concede that it might turn out otherwise, that the prospect of abortion bans might consolidate a true pro-choice majority, which would either codify Roe in legislation or else make liberal court-packing popular and usher in a few extra liberal justices with a mandate to affirm abortion rights.

But in that case the pro-life movement would have its real political position clarified and its much longer-term cultural task made clear. And the clarifying power of defeat, no less than the opportunities of victory, would be preferable to the futile trench warfare we have now.

The imagined post-Ginsburg truce, however, would postpone those possibilities into an ever-more-distant future, leaving us stuck with a deranging status quo.

Meanwhile, for Democrats, giving up not just the threat of court-packing but also the possibility of a Senate without the filibuster and a Senate with two new states, Washington, D.C., and Puerto Rico, would have a similar effect: It would exacerbate liberal disillusionment with a legislative system in which even popular and incremental left-of-center ideas seem to have no chance of getting through.

Yes, the Senate is supposed to slow things down and force the parties to build consensus. That’s the case for maintaining the filibuster, and I believed it when I started at this job. But a long, unhappy decade later, it seems pretty clear that the combination of polarization, presidential aggrandizement and legislative abdication are creating obstacles to legislating far beyond what a reasonable system would impose.

And while these obstacles affect both parties, the Democrats currently have the more popular domestic policy ideas — not Medicare for All, but Obamacare for Slightly More — and a clear gap between their national support and their Senate representation. So a world where their party’s turns in the majority are rendered sterile in advance is a world calculated to make liberals as disillusioned with the Senate as social conservatives have been with the Supreme Court.

A world where Democrats can actually pass whatever bills Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema support, on the other hand, is also a world where the Republicans are forced to actually do policy to counter them, instead of obstructing while gesturing vaguely at think-tank white papers — the party’s health care strategy for a decade, and one that has gained basically nothing for conservative health policy ideas.

Likewise, a world in which the Democrats midwife new states into existence is not a world where Republicans suddenly can’t compete for the Senate anymore. It’s a world where Republicans would be forced to push somewhat more against our current rural-urban polarization, which could help make the G.O.P. a more diverse coalition, equipped to govern rather than just resist the liberal tide.

Also, it’s worth noting that new states don’t always play the role that partisans expect. (For instance, Republicans ushered in a bunch of Western states in the 19th century, only to see several of them vote for William Jennings Bryan soon after.) The District of Columbia might be a permanently Democratic state, but Puerto Rico’s destiny would be less certain.

And forcing more uncertainty on American politics would itself be a useful thing. It’s the grinding predictability of current partisan alignments, the microtargeted base-turnout strategies and the durability of coalitions even in the midst of a once-in-a century pandemic that simultaneously makes the stakes of every election feel existential and yet ensures that little in the way of dramatic policy change actually occurs.

The best thing about Donald Trump’s 2016 victory was the way it briefly seemed to smash these certainties, to prove that political consultants didn’t know half of what they thought, to demonstrate that swing voters could still be discovered and carefully calculated Electoral College maps unmade. If Trump had built on this in his presidency, if he had done outreach and defied Republican orthodoxies and tried to be a majority-building president, then he would have proved many of his skeptics wrong.

Instead, Trump has given us norm-breaking to no purpose save self-protection and self-enrichment, rhetorical excess that puts a ceiling on his support and a series of empty cultural battles that just lock people into their pre-existing teams.

Just because the president’s norm-breaking has been so often pointless or destructive, though, doesn’t mean that all political escalation is destined to polarize the country further. It just tells us that to the extent that America needs a reconfigured political system, a realigned politics, a transformed relationship between the branches of government, Trump has been the wrong re-founder for the task.

But the task itself is still essential. The norms that worked for American politics in the middle of the 20th century very clearly don’t work anymore, as our three-branch system has gradually decayed into a weird executive-judicial hybrid, with a weakened Congress hanging around to pass budgets and approve judicial nominees.

In an ideal world, maybe, we would arrest this decay through a revived bipartisanship. But a bipartisanship of stasis doesn’t offer anything except delay. The fights over an overly powerful court and a gridlocked Senate will go on till they reach some kind of transformative conclusion; it’s reasonable to want to get there sooner, and see what kind of republic awaits us on the other side.

To which a rejoinder might be that we should want to push forward, to escalate disputes, to renew our institutions through democratic conflict — but maybe we shouldn’t want to do it now, in the annus horribilis of 2020, with the coronavirus still rampant, our president shouting about voter fraud and his opposition fearing the literal end of the Republic if he’s re-elected. The point of embracing compromise and temporary stasis, in this view, wouldn’t be to postpone needed conflict for decades; it would just be to get us through this polarized moment, this awful year.

And this is the place where I’ve realized something odd about myself in recent days. My brand, I suppose, is conservative pessimism, but in sticking with the view that the United States is decadent and stagnant, our politics too unchanging rather than too tumultuous, I’ve ended up slightly more optimistic about the resilience of our country than almost anyone I know — from liberals who expect Trumpian dictatorship to conservatives worried about woke tyranny to more middle-of-the-road observers worried about secession, constitutional crisis, civil strife.

It’s not that I don’t see the things they’re worried about — I think Trump is dangerous, I would prefer not to live under the rule of a progressive speech police, I can recognize that American divisions run dangerously deep. But I also see some of these problems as reflecting not an excess of political combat but rather its increasing absence, and the strange ways that an age of stalemate encourages apocalyptic fears.

Especially an age of stalemate that’s also an age of growing isolation. As we’ve retreated into virtual spaces and solitary pursuits, subjected ourselves to the terrifying bombardment of social media headlines and segregated ourselves from people who vote the other way, the idea of letting the other party actually legislate, actually govern for a while, seems more terrifying than it would have generations back. And the big policy swings that used to characterize our politics — this is a country that once banned alcohol by constitutional amendment and then repented, all within 13 years! — seem not just alien but frightening, unimaginable, Republic-ending.

Hence the case for congressional escalation as shock therapy. The hope would be that once we’ve actually fought over abortion or reformed the Supreme Court or let 51 senators pass legislation, we’ll discover that a silent majority of the country can handle conflict better than people handle it on Twitter — and that in fighting battles that actually lead somewhere, some of the feeling of 2020’s apocalypse recedes.
It's certainly an interesting point about how power has shifted and blocks consolidated (and verticalised) in the US Congress to make the US a predominantly executive-judicial hybrid with the third major branch of government becoming a rubber-stamping house for budgets and appointments that just gets to say yes/no.
 
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Jeez dude you really can't take and/or recognize a joke can you?:rolleyes: I mean I put the jokey face emoji and everything.:confused:

Sometimes a joke just isn't funny. They can't all be automatically expected to be with every audience. Your joke has bombed BADLY. Get off the improv stage.
 
Sometimes a joke just isn't funny. They can't all be automatically expected to be with every audience. Your joke has bombed BADLY. Get off the improv stage.

Its possible the audience was a wider group than just you.
 
OK, this thread has somehow become a thread where we discuss Patine's chances of reproducing biologically and Berzerker going on about the war against drugs, uhm…

A Supreme Court Fight Might Be Exactly What America Needs
From the courts to Congress, we might need fewer embalming norms and more room for victories and defeat.
By Ross Douthat

Spoiler :
In the brief window between the death of Ruth Bader Ginsburg and the announcements from Republicans like Mitt Romney and Cory Gardner that they would consider a replacement before the November election, several writers floated a grand bargain, in which Republican and Democratic senators would agree to de-escalate, trading a G.O.P. promise not to confirm a Ginsburg replacement before the election for a Democratic promise not to pack the court if Joe Biden wins.

The goal of these proposals was a kind of stabilizing stasis, in which the balance of the court would remain where it stood before Ginsburg’s passing — tilted 5 to 4 toward Republican appointees, with more complicated divisions case by case. And in online and offline conversations, the idea was extended to encompass a larger truce — no Republican replacement for Ginsburg, and no radical moves of any kind from Democrats in a Biden presidency, meaning no abolition of the filibuster and no partisan push to add new Democratic-leaning states.

The people who floated these ideas were mostly, like me, conservatives who opposed Donald Trump’s election. So I know how they think, and in the evening hours after Ginsburg’s death lit up social media I was thinking similarly: A Supreme Court seat isn’t worth the Republic collapsing around our ears.

But I woke up the next morning feeling differently. In certain ways, yes, American politics needs stabilization, reason, calm. It certainly needs a president who actually tries to preside over the nation, instead of flouting every norm of decency, treating half the country as his enemy, and delegitimizing an American election because he fears he might not win.

In other ways, though, it is precisely our stalemates and our stasis, a “stability” created by gridlock and dysfunction, that has maddened our debates, made Trumpism possible and hysteria the norm.

In the rhetorical arena, the world of cable news and social media, there’s gasoline enough for every fire. But in the arena of policy, where judges and legislators and presidents and voters interact, we may need to experience a little more shock therapy, the curative fever that comes when frozen conflicts finally heat up.

Consider abortion, the issue that hangs over the looming confirmation battle as it has hung over confirmation battles for decades. America doesn’t have an abortion settlement: We have a permanent conflict that’s been prevented from resolving itself because it’s been artificially frozen from above.

We did have a decade of normal political debate on the issue in the 1960s and early 1970s, with elections and lawmaking and shifting, unsettled coalitions. But Roe v. Wade put an end to that, locking us into a status quo in which the issue warps judicial politics, public opinion barely changes — stuck at around 20 percent pro-life, 30 percent pro-choice, 50 percent unsure — and the anti-abortion movement cycles through failed attempt after failed attempt to change an anti-democratic ruling by democratic means.

This is a situation that cries out for a breakthrough, a change, not 50 more years of John Roberts and his center-right successors punting on the issue. As an abortion opponent, I want to believe that were the issue opened more to democratic debate, the small group of pro-life states would be able to create a model that restricted abortion and also supported pregnant women, which in turn would shift public opinion in a pro-life direction nationwide.

However, I will readily concede that it might turn out otherwise, that the prospect of abortion bans might consolidate a true pro-choice majority, which would either codify Roe in legislation or else make liberal court-packing popular and usher in a few extra liberal justices with a mandate to affirm abortion rights.

But in that case the pro-life movement would have its real political position clarified and its much longer-term cultural task made clear. And the clarifying power of defeat, no less than the opportunities of victory, would be preferable to the futile trench warfare we have now.

The imagined post-Ginsburg truce, however, would postpone those possibilities into an ever-more-distant future, leaving us stuck with a deranging status quo.

Meanwhile, for Democrats, giving up not just the threat of court-packing but also the possibility of a Senate without the filibuster and a Senate with two new states, Washington, D.C., and Puerto Rico, would have a similar effect: It would exacerbate liberal disillusionment with a legislative system in which even popular and incremental left-of-center ideas seem to have no chance of getting through.

Yes, the Senate is supposed to slow things down and force the parties to build consensus. That’s the case for maintaining the filibuster, and I believed it when I started at this job. But a long, unhappy decade later, it seems pretty clear that the combination of polarization, presidential aggrandizement and legislative abdication are creating obstacles to legislating far beyond what a reasonable system would impose.

And while these obstacles affect both parties, the Democrats currently have the more popular domestic policy ideas — not Medicare for All, but Obamacare for Slightly More — and a clear gap between their national support and their Senate representation. So a world where their party’s turns in the majority are rendered sterile in advance is a world calculated to make liberals as disillusioned with the Senate as social conservatives have been with the Supreme Court.

A world where Democrats can actually pass whatever bills Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema support, on the other hand, is also a world where the Republicans are forced to actually do policy to counter them, instead of obstructing while gesturing vaguely at think-tank white papers — the party’s health care strategy for a decade, and one that has gained basically nothing for conservative health policy ideas.

Likewise, a world in which the Democrats midwife new states into existence is not a world where Republicans suddenly can’t compete for the Senate anymore. It’s a world where Republicans would be forced to push somewhat more against our current rural-urban polarization, which could help make the G.O.P. a more diverse coalition, equipped to govern rather than just resist the liberal tide.

Also, it’s worth noting that new states don’t always play the role that partisans expect. (For instance, Republicans ushered in a bunch of Western states in the 19th century, only to see several of them vote for William Jennings Bryan soon after.) The District of Columbia might be a permanently Democratic state, but Puerto Rico’s destiny would be less certain.

And forcing more uncertainty on American politics would itself be a useful thing. It’s the grinding predictability of current partisan alignments, the microtargeted base-turnout strategies and the durability of coalitions even in the midst of a once-in-a century pandemic that simultaneously makes the stakes of every election feel existential and yet ensures that little in the way of dramatic policy change actually occurs.

The best thing about Donald Trump’s 2016 victory was the way it briefly seemed to smash these certainties, to prove that political consultants didn’t know half of what they thought, to demonstrate that swing voters could still be discovered and carefully calculated Electoral College maps unmade. If Trump had built on this in his presidency, if he had done outreach and defied Republican orthodoxies and tried to be a majority-building president, then he would have proved many of his skeptics wrong.

Instead, Trump has given us norm-breaking to no purpose save self-protection and self-enrichment, rhetorical excess that puts a ceiling on his support and a series of empty cultural battles that just lock people into their pre-existing teams.

Just because the president’s norm-breaking has been so often pointless or destructive, though, doesn’t mean that all political escalation is destined to polarize the country further. It just tells us that to the extent that America needs a reconfigured political system, a realigned politics, a transformed relationship between the branches of government, Trump has been the wrong re-founder for the task.

But the task itself is still essential. The norms that worked for American politics in the middle of the 20th century very clearly don’t work anymore, as our three-branch system has gradually decayed into a weird executive-judicial hybrid, with a weakened Congress hanging around to pass budgets and approve judicial nominees.

In an ideal world, maybe, we would arrest this decay through a revived bipartisanship. But a bipartisanship of stasis doesn’t offer anything except delay. The fights over an overly powerful court and a gridlocked Senate will go on till they reach some kind of transformative conclusion; it’s reasonable to want to get there sooner, and see what kind of republic awaits us on the other side.

To which a rejoinder might be that we should want to push forward, to escalate disputes, to renew our institutions through democratic conflict — but maybe we shouldn’t want to do it now, in the annus horribilis of 2020, with the coronavirus still rampant, our president shouting about voter fraud and his opposition fearing the literal end of the Republic if he’s re-elected. The point of embracing compromise and temporary stasis, in this view, wouldn’t be to postpone needed conflict for decades; it would just be to get us through this polarized moment, this awful year.

And this is the place where I’ve realized something odd about myself in recent days. My brand, I suppose, is conservative pessimism, but in sticking with the view that the United States is decadent and stagnant, our politics too unchanging rather than too tumultuous, I’ve ended up slightly more optimistic about the resilience of our country than almost anyone I know — from liberals who expect Trumpian dictatorship to conservatives worried about woke tyranny to more middle-of-the-road observers worried about secession, constitutional crisis, civil strife.

It’s not that I don’t see the things they’re worried about — I think Trump is dangerous, I would prefer not to live under the rule of a progressive speech police, I can recognize that American divisions run dangerously deep. But I also see some of these problems as reflecting not an excess of political combat but rather its increasing absence, and the strange ways that an age of stalemate encourages apocalyptic fears.

Especially an age of stalemate that’s also an age of growing isolation. As we’ve retreated into virtual spaces and solitary pursuits, subjected ourselves to the terrifying bombardment of social media headlines and segregated ourselves from people who vote the other way, the idea of letting the other party actually legislate, actually govern for a while, seems more terrifying than it would have generations back. And the big policy swings that used to characterize our politics — this is a country that once banned alcohol by constitutional amendment and then repented, all within 13 years! — seem not just alien but frightening, unimaginable, Republic-ending.

Hence the case for congressional escalation as shock therapy. The hope would be that once we’ve actually fought over abortion or reformed the Supreme Court or let 51 senators pass legislation, we’ll discover that a silent majority of the country can handle conflict better than people handle it on Twitter — and that in fighting battles that actually lead somewhere, some of the feeling of 2020’s apocalypse recedes.
It's certainly an interesting point about how power has shifted and blocks consolidated (and verticalised) in the US Congress to make the US a predominantly executive-judicial hybrid with the third majorbranch of government becoming a rubber-stamping house for budgets and appointments that just gets to say yes/no.
Interesting read, thanks Tak.

TL;DR - Let's end the political cold war, go ahead and have the political fight-to-the-death and hopefully we will all be able to shake hands and be friends after.
 
Its possible the audience was a wider group than just you.

There was no intimation of that. And, besides, if he's ridiculing and mocking me to other people on a public forum right in front of me, I believe that could be reportable. So, I think it's in his best interests to just assume I was the sole audience, wouldn't you say?
 
Don't talk about it be about it.

Well, I'm sick of this go nowhere conversation, anyways. @Lexicus makes a vicious, slanderous, and baseless false accusation against me that has gained him nothing, and only proved his posts can't be trusted by anyone with sense in their head, you're mocking me in transparently clumsy and disingenuous way, @AmazonQueen seems to feel the bad, tasteless joke should be spread, and @Gori the Grey is so lacking in substance to his arguments and reasoning he can only resort to the limp and desperate filler of correcting grammar. This conversation is just getting pitiful, and I'm departing until something worthwhile is said on the thread again - of ever.
 
Again, you speak from a superficial, Nietchzean, nihilistic, pretentious, vapid, Frankfurt school point of view, not understanding the story and it's meaning, but pretending to, and using that false insight to attack and pillory the faith of Christians (and not appreciating that it being Old Covenant and not New Covenant highly limits the "gotcha," value it could ever even have). Now I am done discussing Job with people who don't comprehend what it means, but think they can ignorantly weaponize it, and expect to be given the time of day in a serious discussion for doing so. I will no longer respond to such posts.
Tldl : you don't like my interpretation.

Typical religious nonsense, "oh you don't really understand", actually I do, and its horrific and there's no spin you can put on it that makes it not so. :rolleyes:
 
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