3rd and 4th Unique Components for VP - Official thread 88.10

[pineappledan]

Thanks for the summary. Easy to lose track of feedback. I just moved and I am still probably weeks away from a reliable internet connection and setting up my desktop so I can push a 4UC update, or any custom civ updates. I’m happy to say that the newest version hasn’t broken anything (except the Khmer, but that will be fixed if/when Morocco is fixed)

Could someone test the induna’s XP bonus for stacked units? I have a report that it is not working as intended.

 

[Hinin]

Here are the xp amounts after test. It seems the InDuna xp-bonus works well (+50% xp, rounded down). I also tested the xp-bonus when expending the InDuna, and there is also no problem.

Spoiler Picture :

Other things needing to be tested ?

 

[phantomaxl1207]

Khopesh have too high of a CS at 15. The next highest Spearman UU is the Hoplite at 14, and that is one the main strengths of the Hoplite.

Great Bombards absolutely devastate Cities. They could use a nerf.

 

[JohnnyNT]

Minor bug, Spanish Armada has CS properly adjusting with the invincible promotion (42/46) according to a new changelog, but the promotion description in game and in wiki shows old value (+6 CS when at full health instead of +4) .

I think it's line 85 of NewComponentTexts.xml

 

[pineappledan]

with the rework of the skirmisher line, the Iron Chariot now has the open terrain bonus/rough terrain malus of the skirmishers, despite being a melee unit. It is a flavorful element, but it isn't balanced with the base CP of the unit, so what do we do ? Also, the unit description needs to be reworked, since the unit doesn't have the "rough terrain movement malus" anymore

Fixed in new version

the CP of the Iron Chariot begins at 13, and not 12 as indicated on the unit card, that's kind of strange (not taking into account the unique promotions of course) ;

Bug with the lua. Will scale to 12/14/16 in new version

concerning the unique CP promotion of the unit, by the way, I don't really understand how it works : do I conserve the CP bonus even when trading away iron and horses (had a case where I had 2 15 CP Iron Chariots while having 4 horses, but trading 2 away) ?

You still had 2 horses for your iron chariots, so they still got 15 CS. In order to get 17CS, you need 2 horses and 2 iron. the code checks if you have at least X number of horse and iron separately in comparison to your X iron chariots. It does not simply sum those two numbers up and give you the full +4 if you have 2*(# horses + # iron).

the unique wall offers one less bonus CP to the city than the base Walls

Intended. The lamassu gives less defense but more offence. This is consistent with Assyrian military doctrine.

I think that the Oppidum should also, in a minor way (like maybe 25 % of the normal amount), boost the science produced when using a GScientist, since it already does that for the GEngineer and the GMerchant. That way, using a GS to create an Oppidum isn't a net loss in the long term.

it already does.

For the Scythed Chariot, the "Carnyx" promotion seems a little anecdotical to me. I understand that it is meant to provide a promotion that is not lost on upgrade, but I think we could find a more interesting kind of bonus.
Maybe, since the Celtic chariot was meant as a way for infantry to quickly move between places on the battlefield, we could instead provide the unit a defense bonus against melee attacks (something similar to the Turtle Ship), but in exchange we could lower the base CP a bit (like 7 instead of 9). This way, the Scythed Chariot would become a sort of anti-infantry skirmisher unit, but its weakness against ranged attacks would be more clearly defined. What do you think ?

I think it’s fine for now.

- The fact that you have to position the Langskib exactly on the same tile as an embarked unit to give the bonus makes it almost impossible for the AI to find a way to use that bonus. To maybe give it a chance, why not also give the bonus to adjacent units ? The goal is to provide ocean-crossing capabilities to Denmark anyway, so why keep it difficult to use ?

Perhaps instead of giving ocean movement, it could give embarked units +1 move and the ‘must end turn on coast’ promotion, so embarked units can enter deep ocean like a trireme?

The Kopesh has several problems right now, due to its design and its unit line :
- First, despite being designed as a unit without an "anti-mounted" bonus, it now has the "formation I" promotion. It should be removed.
- Second, as several persons has pointed out since the release of the mod, the Kopesh is in competition with the War Chariot for the execution of enemy units (the War Chariot gives yields when killing, while the Kopesh has a special promotion allowing it to kill more easily). I understand that giving player choices is something that we want when designing UCs, but in that case that choice actually hinders the free use of the two UCs. I think that providing the Kopesh a bonus opposite to what it currently has (so a combat bonus against units with more than 50 % health) is the most simple way to finally put an end to that problem that regularly comes back in the discussions

I’m pretty sick of hearing about the khopesh. I’m seriously considering replacing this unit with a Mamluk Lancer replacement just so we can stop talking about it.

I think the production/population bonus of the Grande Ecole is just too much (it's the same as the Steam Mill), knowing how France fares in the hands of human players. Since the building already gives production from using scientist specialists, why not reduce the production/population to something like 1/5 ?

Compare it to the skola, not the steam mill. The steam mill also has many more, smaller, varied bonuses, so I think it’s fine

The "Migration" promotion is quite good, but the fact that it only gives +1 movement to stacked settlers and workers gives the same kind of problems that the Langskib : it makes its use awkward and AI-unfriendly. Why not make the bonus given to adjacent (and stacked) units, plus maybe increase the bonus movement to +2 (although, if I remember correctly, there was a problem on that side when we did tests in beta versions of the modmod

It’s fine for now, IMO. Adding a check for all adjacent tiles is a lot more processing load.

The Chasqui, although now more useful and balanced, is still a bit bland in its design (although the model and the flavor are excellent). I was thinking that having a very land-focused Scout replacement unlocked at Sailing is a bit strange, so why not make it unlocked at Masonry ? It would be appropriate flavor-wise (since the Chasqui depended on the Incan infrastructures and the tambo relays) and also would put them on a more logical tech-line for the Incas (since the Terrace farms are also unlocked at Masonry). What do you think ?

I hate unlocking multiple UCs on the same tech. How about writing? The Chasqui were messengers, after all.

The Holkan is really dependant on the placement of Ancient Ruins to be relevant in the early game. Because nowadays every player begins with two units, the AR-hunt is even more fierce than before. Why not buff the Holkan a bit (either in CS, or in yield/AR, or even maybe by giving it a bit a yield when killing) ?

at minimum, the Holkan is a faster warrior. It can gain XP faster than a normal scout as well. I don’t think boosting CS beyond making it strong enough to defend against barbs is necessary, and I definitely don’t want to bloat their early yields more than they are. If you recall, their yields had to be reduced to their current form because they were snowballing Maya too hard if you got a lucky break on ruins.

However, I might give them back the treasure hunter promotion that the base pathfinder lost last year.

The Great Turkish Bombard still has the "+100 % CS against cities" bonus in addition to the "+150 % CS" it is supposed to have. Because of this, it is far too powerful when used. I understand it is meant to be a terrifying anti-city weapon, but that's a bit much, knowing its base RCS, no ?

Unintended bug gave them +500% vs cities instead of +300%. Fixed in next patch.

As said SuperNoobCamper on this page, I think that the Armada is too easy for Spain to spam because of its UA, and also is a bit too powerful CS-wise. Because of this, I suggest increasing its production/faith cost a little, while making its playmake potential a little more dependant on the "Invincible" promotion (lower the base CS of the unit by 1, or maybe 2, but increase the Invincible bonus by the same amount, so that the unit is less tanky in the long term, but keeps this "shock and awe" utility).

I disagree. I have fought Spain on several games and she’s fairly easy to deal with. The 46 CS on a full HP armada is only +1 from a sea beggar. The Armada’s -1 movement is also major.

I think that the Iziko appears like an early toned-down version of the Japanese Dojo, and so needs to be modified a bit.
First, since it is a more informal type of cultural site (less an infrastructure, more a gathering), why not reduce its production cost ?
Second, why not make the culture/lvl also scale with era, plus maybe give a bit of GG points so that InDuna can be spawned (and so expended) more frequently ?

Similar, but still very different mechanically, because the Zulu get the culture in every city with an Iziko.

scaling with era would be broken, because you can get 5 levels on new units easily in late game, which translates to 10 culture in every city for free, in addition to gaining XP normally.

Minor bug, Spanish Armada has CS properly adjusting with the invincible promotion (42/46) according to a new changelog, but the promotion description in game and in wiki shows old value (+6 CS when at full health instead of +4) .

fixed.

 

[ElmerGG]

crashes on Strategic View. Took me a day to figure out the cause but this mod alone causes the crashes. Any fixes?

Here's the database log:

Spoiler :

[78626.000] columns StrategicViewType, TileType are not unique
[78626.000] While executing - 'INSERT INTO ArtDefine_StrategicView(StrategicViewType, TileType, Asset) VALUES(?,?,?)'
[78628.171] no such table: ContentPackage.LocalizedText
[78628.171] no such table: ContentPackage.LocalizedText
[78628.187] no such table: ContentPackage.LocalizedText
[78629.343] no such table: ContentPackage.LocalizedText
[78631.531] columns StrategicViewType, TileType are not unique
[78631.531] While executing - 'INSERT INTO ArtDefine_StrategicView(StrategicViewType, TileType, Asset) VALUES(?,?,?)'
[78632.453] no such table: ContentPackage.LocalizedText
[78632.453] no such table: ContentPackage.LocalizedText
[78632.453] no such table: ContentPackage.LocalizedText
[78638.421]
-- SQLite Memory Statistics --
Memory Usage:
[Cur] [Max]
Malloc: 6246512 75897184
PageCache: 6 12
LookAside: 0 0
Scratch: 0 1

Static Buffer Overflows:
[TooLarge] [NoSpace]
PageCache: 5831784 62968920
Scratch: 0 0

Largest Allocations:
Malloc: 262144
PageCache: 1172
Scratch: 6640

Prepared Statements:
Current: 6
------------------------------
[78638.953]
-- SQLite Memory Statistics --
Memory Usage:
[Cur] [Max]
Malloc: 6247688 75897184
PageCache: 6 12
LookAside: 0 0
Scratch: 0 1

Static Buffer Overflows:
[TooLarge] [NoSpace]
PageCache: 5832960 62968920
Scratch: 0 0

Largest Allocations:
Malloc: 262144
PageCache: 1172
Scratch: 6640

Prepared Statements:
Current: 6
------------------------------

Edit: More troubleshooting. Finally determined the cause of strategic view crashes. This mod is incompatible with Late Game Unit Pack. For some reason both of them active somehow ruins strategic view

 

[Hinin]

Fixed

Nice. I'll try to ckeck it out as soon as possible.

Intended.

You're the chief, chief.

I think it’s fine for now.

I also think it's not a pressing matter, but talking about it is still useful I think. Do you have others ideas on how to replace the carnyx promotion ?

How about writing? The Chasqui were messengers, after all.

Good idea. It's at least more logical with the general direction of the Incan tech tree.

Perhaps instead of giving ocean movement, it could give embarked units +1 move and the ‘must end turn on coast’ promotion, so embarked units can enter deep ocean like a trireme?

It's an interesting proposition. You would still have to wait renaissance for long ocean travel, but finding small passages between landmasses becomes possible, and embarked units with 4 movement become able to follow the Langskib more easily. Plus, it's thematic with the way Northmen traveled from island to island during the 9/10th century. The fact that the bonus applies only to stacked units makes it still something that only human players can make use of, but I understand your concern about the processing load.

I’m pretty sick of hearing about the khopesh. I’m seriously considering replacing this unit with a Mamluk Lancer replacement just so we can stop talking about it.

What do you have in mind for the Mamluk Lancer ?

Compare it to the skola, not the steam mill. The steam mill also has many more, smaller, varied bonuses, so I think it’s fine

Well, at least pls change the historical part a bit. As I said, there is an actual misinformation in it.

However, I might give them back the treasure hunter promotion that the base pathfinder lost last year.

I think it's a good compromise.

I disagree. I have fought Spain on several games and she’s fairly easy to deal with. The 46 CS on a full HP armada is only +1 from a sea beggar. The Armada’s -1 movement is also major.

I personally think that the Sea Beggar is an overpowered unit with too much bonus (a lot of bonus CP, two very powerful promotions, unlocked earlier, no downside), but that's only my opinion.

Similar, but still very different mechanically, because the Zulu get the culture in every city with an Iziko.

scaling with era would be broken, because you can get 5 levels on new units easily in late game, which translates to 10 culture in every city for free, in addition to gaining XP normally.

The fact that the bonus scales with cities and not eras, plus the number of promotion you obtain on each unit, makes the bonus powerful in itself (and the GG bonus I proposed far too powerful). Sorry for talking before thinking.

What about the production cost reduction ? I think the Zulus need at least a little buff right now, and there don't seem to be anything coming for them in the near future in base VP.

 

[Alpakinator]

Roman unique resource - Figs have now different building that upgrades their yield (together with coffee, tea, tobacco and bananas). Grocer or Coffee House used to give them big bonuses. Quite a while ago these bonuses were moved to Customs House/Hanse/Pogost stage 1. Because of this with 3rd and 4th component enabled, neither Grocer nor Customs House improves Figs yields. Customs House gives extra gold/production only to tea, coffee, tobacco and bananas.
I really wanted to play Rome (Latifundiums are amazing) so i fixed this. To do this, i went to "Figs.sql" file found in "\(over) More Unique Components for VP (v 59)\Rome\Figs\Figs.sql" and changed:

INSERT INTO Building_ResourceYieldChanges
(BuildingType, ResourceType, YieldType, Yield)
VALUES ('BUILDING_COFFEE_HOUSE', 'RESOURCE_ROME_FIGS', 'YIELD_PRODUCTION', 1),
('BUILDING_COFFEE_HOUSE', 'RESOURCE_ROME_FIGS', 'YIELD_GOLD', 1),
('BUILDING_COFFEE_HOUSE', 'RESOURCE_ROME_FIGS', 'YIELD_FOOD', 1),
('BUILDING_GROCER', 'RESOURCE_ROME_FIGS', 'YIELD_PRODUCTION', 1),
('BUILDING_GROCER', 'RESOURCE_ROME_FIGS', 'YIELD_GOLD', 1),
('BUILDING_GROCER', 'RESOURCE_ROME_FIGS', 'YIELD_FOOD', 1);

into this:

INSERT INTO Building_ResourceYieldChanges
(BuildingType, ResourceType, YieldType, Yield)
VALUES ('BUILDING_HANSE', 'RESOURCE_ROME_FIGS', 'YIELD_PRODUCTION', 1),
('BUILDING_HANSE', 'RESOURCE_ROME_FIGS', 'YIELD_GOLD', 1),
('BUILDING_HANSE', 'RESOURCE_ROME_FIGS', 'YIELD_FOOD', 1),
('BUILDING_MINT', 'RESOURCE_ROME_FIGS', 'YIELD_PRODUCTION', 1),
('BUILDING_MINT', 'RESOURCE_ROME_FIGS', 'YIELD_GOLD', 1),
('BUILDING_MINT', 'RESOURCE_ROME_FIGS', 'YIELD_FOOD', 1),
('BUILDING_RUSSIA_POGOST_1', 'RESOURCE_ROME_FIGS', 'YIELD_PRODUCTION', 1),
('BUILDING_RUSSIA_POGOST_1', 'RESOURCE_ROME_FIGS', 'YIELD_GOLD', 1),
('BUILDING_RUSSIA_POGOST_1', 'RESOURCE_ROME_FIGS', 'YIELD_FOOD', 1);

"Mint" in game files is Customs House in game BTW.
Also Descriptions of Coffee House, Grocer, Mint, Hanse and Pogost are obsolete so that would need changing in the next release too.

I really appreciate your mod. It makes civilizations so much more interesting and complex. It impoves Vox Populi a lot, even though Vox Populi alone is outstanding already.
Should i post these kinds of bugs here or on GitHub? It seems to be dead for over a year so i figured i'd put it here.

 

[pineappledan]

Here is fine. Thanks for pointing that out. I'm wondering if I wouldn't rather that the bonuses stay on the grocer though? Moving the bonus 1 tech level sooner is a buff to Rome. What do other people think?

 

[Gizmoman]

Here is fine. Thanks for pointing that out. I'm wondering if I wouldn't rather that the bonuses stay on the grocer though? Moving the bonus 1 tech level sooner is a buff to Rome. What do other people think?

It feels more like a grocer resource rather than a trade resource, but I don't know.

 

[Alpakinator]

Yeah, it fits Grocer more. Those figs are good enough already. If you spawn on plains with a bunch of wheat, plantation luxuries, and pick a plantation pantheon it's great.

 

[pineappledan]

Mamluk
350
Unlocked at Metallurgy
38
4Moves
-50% foreign religious pressure when garrisoned in a city (same as inquisitor)
Vur Ha! - +25% vs unit with more than 50 hp. +1Movement if the unit has attacked This turn (ie. Mamluk can always retreat after attacking).

 

[Drakle]

View attachment 561763
Mamluk
350
Unlocked at Metallurgy
38
4Moves
-50% foreign religious pressure when garrisoned in a city (same as inquisitor)
Vur Ha! - +25% vs unit with more than 50 hp. +1Movement if the unit has attacked This turn (ie. Mamluk can always retreat after attacking).

So you put the promotion that everybody asked to put on the Khopesh, on the Mamluk.

Anyway acting like defensive inquisitors is very odd. Since Mamluks were recruited slave troops, that were mostly Christian. They officially converted to Islam, but they often maintained relations with their home region, even sending funds back for churches.

And Mamluk Egypt wasn't really fending off religious pressure.

Also, does Egypt really need an inquisitor? AI Egypt often misses getting a religion,.

I really think the recruitment mechanic would be a better idea for a feature.

Also, I still think it would be better as a Knight.

 

[pineappledan]

Anyway acting like defensive inquisitors is very odd. Since Mamluks were recruited slave troops, that were mostly Christian. They officially converted to Islam, but they often maintained relations with their home region, even sending funds back for churches.

Depends on what Mamluks you’re talking about. Many of them were Turkic Muslims, especially the most famous ones at the height of Mamluk power. Circassian, Georgian and Coptic Mamluks, nominally all Muslim as well, but converted from Christianity, came later.

And Mamluk Egypt wasn't really fending off religious pressure.

They were during the crusades under Saladin and the Ayyubid caliphate. The Ayyubids were notable for their vigorous promotion of Sunni Islam, as compared to the more lax fatimids. The later Mamluk sultanate also conquered Christian Makuria, present day Sudan, which is majority Muslim today.

The unit assets and design are pulled from JFD’s Ayyubid civ.”, and I would like to acknowledge/preserve some of that design if possible.

Also, does Egypt really need an inquisitor? AI Egypt often misses getting a religion,.

It doesn’t, though any civ getting a pressure-blocking unit in renaissance is only an incidental benefit, even a religious civ. It’s not a huge deal. However, Egypt does have a modest faith from the burial tomb.

I really think the recruitment mechanic would be a better idea for a feature

The Qizilbash has a recruitment mechanic (faith purchase), and I want to ensure there isn’t too much overlap. I want to make sure the Mamluk is at least a little different from other lancer replacements (Hakkapelliitta, Winged Hussar, Sipahi, Qizilbash, Prussian death’s head hussar, and the Timurid Tumen)

Also, I still think it would be better as a Knight.

not including Egypt or custom civs, there are:
3 lancer replacements (Qizilbash, hakkapeliitta, winged hussar)
4 spearman replacements (immortal, Pictish warrior, hoplite, Sabum kibitum)
5 knight replacements (cataphract, conquistador, naresuan’s elephant, black tug, mandekalu cavalry)
So, all things equal, adding a Mamluk lancer spreads things out better.

the Mamluks really became a major power with the Ayyubids in 1171, and the Mamluk sultanate lasted until 1517. That’s a wide swathe that gives a lot of leeway. The battle of Ayn Jalut, arguably the most famous Mamluk victory, was in 1260, and stressed light cavalry tactics, more representative of the lancer than knightly heavy cavalry. I would also prefer to stretch Egypt later, since they are otherwise stacked into the first 3 eras.

 

[Drakle]

The Qizilbash has a recruitment mechanic (faith purchase), and I want to ensure there isn’t too much overlap. I want to make sure the Mamluk is at least a little different from other lancer replacements (Hakkapelliitta, Winged Hussar, Sipahi, Qizilbash, Prussian death’s head hussar, and the Timurid Tumen)

No, I meant recruitment as in my prior suggestion

Generally, it is just a boring UU. Maybe try something from a different era of Egypt. Like Mamluks as a Knight replacement, which have a mechanic around importing of warriors, probably connected to city-states in some way. Like a bonus for city-state alliances, or instant influence with a random nearby city-state upon building one. Along with a battle promotion of some kind.

not including Egypt or custom civs, there are:
3 lancer replacements (Qizilbash, hakkapeliitta, winged hussar)
4 spearman replacements (immortal, Pictish warrior, hoplite, Sabum kibitum)
5 knight replacements (cataphract, conquistador, naresuan’s elephant, black tug, mandekalu cavalry)
So, all things equal, adding a Mamluk lancer spreads things out better.

the Mamluks really became a major power with the Ayyubids in 1171, and the Mamluk sultanate lasted until 1517. That’s a wide swathe that gives a lot of leeway. The battle of Ayn Jalut, arguably the most famous Mamluk victory, was in 1260, and stressed light cavalry tactics, more representative of the lancer than knightly heavy cavalry. I would also prefer to stretch Egypt later, since they are otherwise stacked into the first 3 eras.

Well, one of those was you moving the mandekalu cavalry from its spot as a horseman.

And if anything, if we are using time, then Naresuan's elephant should be moved to a lancer, since their namesake ruled from 1590 to 1605. Much later than the Ottoman conquest of the Mamluks. Not that actually ended them, since the Ottomans just left them around Egypt until the French came.

And Mongol tactics were more lancer based. But I wouldn't move them.

 

[pineappledan]

mechanic around importing of warriors, probably connected to city-states in some way. Like a bonus for city-state alliances, or instant influence with a random nearby city-state upon building one.

You’d have to flesh that out for me a little. I can’t picture how that would work. Also, it would pull Egypt in a new direction; they aren’t a diplo civ, so it would be hard to justify.

And if anything, if we are using time, then Naresuan's elephant should be moved to a lancer, since their namesake ruled from 1590 to 1605. Much later than the Ottoman conquest of the Mamluks.

I generally like sukritact’s idea of renaming the unit to chang suek. As you say, it’s a pretty anachronistic knight replacement if you tie it specifically to naresuan, but it’s not like Thai people weren’t using war elephants before 1600.

Well, one of those was you moving the mandekalu cavalry from its spot as a horseman.

speaking of anachronism.
i made that change for both balance and Historical reasons:

• Mandekalu got special mention in the “things that are busted” thread recently. Unique horsemen with no penalty that early is very difficult to balance.
• They were knights in vanilla, so they only got moved there because G removed the companion cavalry. The 4UC mod adds an Assyrian horseman, and I re-added the companion cavalry with the Greece/macedon split.
  
• The Songhai were an empire from 1464 to 1591, but both of their base UCs appear in the ancient era, and I think that’s just wrong.

 

[Drakle]

You’d have to flesh that out for me a little. I can’t picture how that would work. Also, it would pull Egypt in a new direction; they aren’t a diplo civ, so it would be hard to justify.

3rd and 4th Unique broadens the play style of a lot of civs. Giving Egypt a little diplo, is nowhere as big a change, as say the Iroquis UW that adds a major city state-focused push. Of course, Iroquis should have had city-state stuff.

And it doesn't have to be influence. It could be a lump sum of a random nearby city-states normal yields, like if Egypt had tributed the city-state at full power (but without the influence loss). With a cooldown. Or unique random promotions depending on the terrain or type of the random city-state.


Anyway, currently playing a game of Indonesia.

The Kampong is really good. Went God of the Sea because of my coastal start with a crab monopoly and a lot of fish and other sea tiles. The big issue, of course, is getting tiles, since the normal city border expansion is loath to expand to blank coast tiles. I've had to buy a lot, and they are really expensive in terms of gold, even with going Progress and selling resources like crazy to the AI. But all of these combined, make my cities lead in terms of average food and production, even while expanding a lot. Very solid.

I'm also trying to take Rome, which borders a massive lake. I want to take it, and fill it with Kampongs. Haven't had much luck.

However the Prau I don't particularly like. It feels like a worse Quinquereme, except also more expensive in terms of production. Since they are both early replacements, most other civs don't have any boats in the water. Making city attacks much more useful as a mechanic. In boat vs boat duels, the no ZOC and extra movement is somewhat helpful, and the flank attack is useful. Heavy Assault is still decent for ship to ship combat. Haven't seen a Prau vs Quinquereme fight to compare.

But the clincher is Reconnaissance. It is very easy as Carthage to have a bunch of level 2-4 boats, before launching the first offensive war against another civ. But the Prau gets nothing at all, despite being a scouting boat. Also in terms of scouting, it really didn't take off until I grabbed the Great Lighthouse. A lot of the time I couldn't quite see over the rifts, without having my scout tag along to stand on islands, but once I got the wonder, it got much better.

I launched a naval offensive against Rome with 4 Prau and 2 Penecosters, and I ended up finding the Penteconter far more useful. I ended up only taking one of Rome coastal cities, and lost a Prau because it got caught in the city when it got retaken the next turn.

If I had launched the same fight, with just 4 Quinquereme I would have flattened Rome.

I know the Quinquereme is a very strong UU. It just feels like the Prau either needs something non-combat related as a bonus or be a bit better refined in terms of combat and/or scouting. Or just straight-up having Reconnaissance

 

[pineappledan]

However the Prau I don't particularly like. It feels like a worse Quinquereme, except also more expensive in terms of production. Since they are both early replacements, most other civs don't have any boats in the water. Making city attacks much more useful as a mechanic. In boat vs boat duels, the no ZOC and extra movement is somewhat helpful, and the flank attack is useful. Heavy Assault is still decent for ship to ship combat. Haven't seen a Prau vs Quinquereme fight to compare.

I also hate the unit model, and a proper outrigger boat model isn't forthcoming.

I have been considering replacing the prau with a Djong (unique galleass), and changing the Xiafan Guanjun to the red-sailed model

 

[pineappledan]

And it doesn't have to be influence. It could be a lump sum of a random nearby city-states normal yields, like if Egypt had tributed the city-state at full power (but without the influence loss). With a cooldown. Or unique random promotions depending on the terrain or type of the random city-state.

You could add an extra effect to a city-state tribute (minor tribute only; there is no event for major tribute), but that's very hard to make it feel like it's attached to the Mamluk itself, and not to the empire as a whole. CS intimidation doesn't upweight specific units, for instance.

the only things I could think of would be something like these:

• Half of the Gold from CS tribute is added as progress towards a training a new Mamluk in the Capital (if you have the required tech)
• All Mamluks gain XP whenever you successfully demand Gold tribute from a City State (could be abused for infinite XP with how tribute works now)
• All Mamluks Heal whenever you successfully demand Gold tribute from a City State (once again, could be abused for infinite heal because of the low tribute requirements)

Here is what I'm thinking for for the Indonesian Djong:
Unlocked at Guilds
200 (+25 from Galleass)
15, 24 (+1/+1)
2 Range (up from 1)
4 moves (up from 3)
Cannot move After Attack
Can Enter Deep ocean
Cetbang - (unique promotion, dunno)

So, effectively Indonesia gets a galleass replacement that moves and fires like an early pre-frigate, and so they must be countered with Caravels.
I would like for them to have something to carry forward, and I think the fact that the Indonesians were mass-producing and using breech-loading cannons 200 years before the Europeans were is just so cool that it deserves a mention somewhere. Maybe I keep their RCS as the base 23 and give them logistics instead?

 

[Drakle]

Cetbang - (unique promotion, dunno)

One idea. The ships could carry a lot of people. Maybe it grants a temporary Marine bonus to any embarked units nearby. It would help for island-hopping campaigns to boost the supporting troops. Maybe not the War Canoe and Amphibious promotions, to not step on the Songhai toes.

Or if you want the promotion to actually be Cetbang, maybe instead of firing in a turn, the ship can do small damage to all units in its radius. Lots of swivel cannons aimed at individual targets, instead of all focused on one.