A case of Western propaganda

Have you ever heard of Immigration? They could immigrate if they want to be Russian. They could have done this democratically, but they decided to do it by violence.

So I take it you're a supporter of ethnic cleansing?
They did want to do it democratically. The government didn't let them.
Yes. And besides there's a couple of more points to consider.

1. They do immigrate. And they do in quite numbers. The count since the beginning of June reportedly is about 240'000. On 26-Jun the reported overall amount was closing 500'000. The migration service has troubles processing that many papers, so the exact numbers are hard to be confirmed and confirmed ones are often partial (say, <City_Name> city accepted so many so far, no info on other regions) and obsolete.

2. It takes to have Ukrainian mentality to wish to migrate altogether with your house, your backyard, your street and your job. The easiest thing to do it is to redraw the border on the map. That's what the whole thing of independence is about.
 
So I take it you're a supporter of ethnic cleansing?
They did want to do it democratically. The government didn't let them.

Just like how Crimea democratically voted for re-unification?
 
I think calling the removal of the Yanukovitch government a coup is just plain silly.
 
More correctly a coup d'etat.

a sudden attempt by a small group of people to take over the government usually through violence

Calling the non-violent removal of Yanukovitch by parliament with the popular support of a majority of the populace a 'coup' just doesn't fit.

The 'illegality' of his removal is also questionable.

I'm not sure why you'd want to support a leader who authorised the use of live fire against protesters either.
 
More correctly a coup d'etat.
Yep, I have independently checked it and found the discription fitting.



Calling the non-violent removal of Yanukovitch by parliament with the popular support of a majority of the populace a 'coup' just doesn't fit.
Umm... apart that the protesters used to throw molotov cocktails at the police and occupied administrative buildings in Kiev, and even burned some, it was non-violent then. All the real violence unleashed later. And still, throwing molotovs at the police and occupying and burning administrative buildings does involve a measure of violence, doesn't it?

At least people in Donetsk in Luhansk were proclaimed terrorists for only occupying administrative buildings alone.

The 'illegality' of his removal is also questionable.
Yes, I also had questions on that, so I did my homework to find answers. Here they go:
Ukrainian Constitution (version of 1996, effective on 21-Feb-2014) clause 108.
The President of Ukraine performs his duties until newly elected President assumes office. Presidential authority can stop prematurely under the following conditions:
1) retirement;
2) inability to perform the duties due to health reasons;
3) deposing within appropriate impeachment procedure;
4) death.
Because Yanukovich a) had time until Feb-2015, b) wasn't going to retire, c) was in good health condition, d) was pretty much alive, the only way available to depose him was impeachment.

Here's how it was supposed to go the constitutional way:
Clause 111. The President of Ukraine can be deposed under the impeachment procedure in case he has committed state treason or other crime.

The consideration of the deposing under the impeachment procedure can be initiated by constitutional majority of the Supreme Rada of Ukraine [that's the parliament - Daw].

To investigate the case the Supreme Rada of Ukraine creates special investigatory committee including special attorney and special investigators.

Conclusions and suggestions of the investigatory committee are to be reviewed by the Supreme Rada of Ukraine.

Based on the grounds presented by the investigatory committee, the Supreme Rada of Ukraine may charge the President if the charge is supported by no less than 2/3 of all the Supreme Rada members.

The decision on deposing the President may be made if supported by 3/4 of all the Supreme Rada members after the Constitutional Court of Ukraine has processed the case and made its formal positive conclusion on constitutional procedures compliance with regard to the process of the case investigation and processing, and after the receipt of formal conclusion from the Supreme Court of Ukraine stating that the actions the President is charged for do contain evidence of state treason or other crime.
Obviously, the Maidanists had no time for this constitutional nonsense. So, on 21-Feb-2014 they made a deal with Yanukovich. The deal said that Yanukovich withdraws the Police from Maidan and Maidanists disarm and leave the administrative buildings they had occupied, and then they sit and talk on compromise to suite everyone.
The deal was signed by Yanukovich from one side, and from the other side it was signed by:
Mr. Klichko (now Kiev mayor),
Mr. Arseniy Yatsenuk (now prime minister - again), and
Mr. Oleg Tyagnibok (just a very nice guy from a very nice party).

The deal was witnessed and verified by:
Mr.Frank-Walter Steinmeier (German Foreign Affairs Minister),
Mr.Rados&#322;aw Sikorski (Polish Foreign Affairs Minister),
Mr.Éric Fournier (head of Continental Europe Dept. at the French Foreign Affairs Ministry)

All serious people.

Thinking that the acute crisis is over, Yanukovich left for Kharkov (because he is the president of a country, so he has the country to run, and he can't eternally sit in his chair in Kiev as if he was nailed to it). However, before he left he did his part of the deal: the police was ordered to withdraw from Kiev.

And next thing happens is that on 22-Feb-2014 (i.e. in less than 24 hours after the deal is signed) the Supreme Rada of Ukraine announces him missing and self-abstaining from ruling the country, and votes for 3 things:

1. Deposing of Yanukovich,
2. Assigning Mr.Turchynov (its Speaker) to be acting president,
3. Altering constitution to include in clause 108 a bunch of additional provisions including ousting, thus post factum validating the already performed act of deposing Yanukovich.

This last thing btw is signed by Mr.Turchinov as acting president already.

So, there was a brief moment in Ukrainian history when it had 2 presidents simultaneously on 22-Feb-2014:
- Yanukovich in Kharkov under Constitution version of 1996, and
- Turchinov in Kiev re-writing constitution to make already happened illegal things look legal to those outsiders who won't bother to check it up.

At this he fascinatingly succeeded as far as I can see :goodjob:

Now, back to the question: if that's not a coup (OK, coup d'etat), what is it?
 
Umm... apart that the protesters used to throw molotov cocktails at the police and occupied administrative buildings in Kiev
You're saying his removal was the riot? An obviously duff equivocation.

Yes, I also had questions on that, so I did my homework to find answers. Here they go:
You didn't link to a source, which I found slightly suspicious so I looked up the Ukrainian constitution 2004 and it's history myself. Two things strike me as most relevant here:

Article 108 (2004) does not say what you claimed it does. Clause 1 is 'resignation' not retirement.

Secondly, the 2004 amendments that you are relying on were themselves declared unconstitutional by "The Constitutional Court of Ukraine... the sole body of constitutional jurisdiction in Ukraine" (to quote the constitution itself). The act of parliament itself referred to in order to to claim that the 2004 amendments were reinstated and in force on the 21st February is obviously itself open to charges of unconstitutionality.

Violence was not part of the process, neither was the process driven by a small party, but by popular opinion. It therefore meets neither of the two stated attributes of a coup and cannot be considered as such.

What happened was a situation so anarchic that is is even debateable what constitution was in force was resolved to the satisfaction of most of the population. Calling it a coup is to show obvious bias.
 
First thing first, you should use version 1996 as the history you've referred to says: "On October 1, 2010, the Constitutional Court of Ukraine overturned the 2004 amendments, considering them unconstitutional." Since then, and till amendments made by Turchinov in Feb-2014 version 1996 was in effect.

You're saying his removal was the riot? An obviously duff equivocation.
Well, the guys he made the deal with on 21-Feb claimed they were the riot leaders. Apparently they weren't after all... :dunno:


Article 108 (2004) does not say what you claimed it does. Clause 1 is 'resignation' not retirement.
The original text is in Russian/Ukrainian, and the original word can be translated probably as both the retirement and resignation.

Article 109 defines &#1086;&#1090;&#1089;&#1090;&#1072;&#1074;&#1082;&#1072; as happening immediately after the President personally reads his &#1079;&#1072;&#1103;&#1074;&#1083;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1077; (which I would translate here as announcement given the context, the wiki says it's "announces the statement" which does not seem to make a big difference) at the assembly of the Rada.

So it's something voluntary anyway.

Secondly, the 2004 amendments that you are relying on were themselves declared unconstitutional by "The Constitutional Court of Ukraine... the sole body of constitutional jurisdiction in Ukraine" (to quote the constitution itself). The act of parliament itself referred to in order to to claim that the 2004 amendments were reinstated and in force on the 21st February is obviously itself open to charges of unconstitutionality.
Wait a second. I am not relying on the 2004 amendments. I am based on the version of 1996. Is that correct?

Violence was not part of the process, neither was the process driven by a small party, but by popular opinion.
Well... the guys don't seem exceptionally harmless, neither they were indeed. And I wish you admit the opinion turned out to be not quite so popular, especially in the East and in Crimea.

But OK, you've convinced me, I won't call the thing coup any more.

What happened was a situation so anarchic that is is even debateable what constitution was in force was resolved to the satisfaction of most of the population.
Umm... not so sure. First, the debates on what constitution was effective then is our problem here as outsiders. I believe it was not a matter of knowledge to people doing things in Ukrainian Rada, but a matter of if they cared about it a bit or not. Second, satisfaction of most of population caused the dissatisfied part of it to fall aside together with their land. A bit too steep a price it seems.

But OTOH, may be they would have had civil war in the West instead if things went the other way around. :dunno:
Calling it a coup is to show obvious bias.
Perhaps. Yanukovch was far from being perfect actually. But he at least won his internationally acknowledged elections in the whole country in 2010 after his predecessor peacefully and constitutionally left the office, which makes him far more legitimate then the current one. And his reluctance to use force against the Maidanists for months compared to the ATO thing almost makes him a good guy.
 
I think we can both agree that the violence has been a bad thing and Kiev certainly seems to have dragged its feet over the referendum on the Eastern regions. Yet another example of our species being depressingly dumb, but I wouldn't hurry to put the blame anywhere specific.
 
I lost whatever respect I had for Der Spiegel...they lowered their standards down even further than Bild.
 
By the way
Since of 10.09.2014 the German press council - a private institution founded to basically scorn particular bad grievances by the press (as usual regarding private initiatives to prevent public action) - scorned the Spiegel for the cover of the OP.
If the pawns of some official institution are agreeing with me I can rest assured that I must have been on to something.
 
I thought Der Spiegel was a good news magazine.
The key word there may be 'was'.

That.
Spiegel has spent the last 40 years living down a once exorbitant reputation.

It's pretty much average polemic hyped-bs nonsense by now.
I thought that was commonly agreed upon. Apparently "commonly" didn't include Terx. :)
 
I have trouble taking it seriously simply (and I admit this is grossly unfair) I associate it with a snooty clothing store, and who wants to take news articles from that kind of place seriously?
 
I have trouble taking it seriously simply (and I admit this is grossly unfair) I associate it with a snooty clothing store, and who wants to take news articles from that kind of place seriously?

That's actually a very good starting point, for by now the Spiegel is essentially mostly about men middle aged embracing their inner uninformed [c-word] and being upset about dem Muslims or dem Greeks or dem tax dodging celebrities or whatever stupid thing it is that week while they shield their face from the other people in the dentist's waiting room.
Kinda like Time magazine.

Which is fairly annoying but could be good actually.
All we have to do now is to get young women to embrace their inner dicks and read the FAZ now and we have made significant progress towards a post gender society.

Dear FAZ editorial board,

In light of the continued sucktitude of the Spiegel i propose you ditch politics and economic news and make the paper just wall to wall acticles in the tone and rhetorics of an old age conservative intellectual firebrand about how this years Prada is really terribly overappreciated. And things like that.
Trust me. It'll be amazeballs.

Sincerely
metatron
 
But this is actually shocking to me.
Only a little bit. It's not having much an effect, other than reinforcing the intended one.

Can't be propaganda unless the government is pushing the paper to print that.

Or am I wrong about what propaganda is?
There's no particular reason to exclude other international organizations.

This fits with what I said, but you lumped everyone into that 'consumers'. Consumers who do have an interest in quality news certainly exist, it's just that they have been very successfully competed for so the print and TV media is left with those who aren't.

There's also the formation of consumers with preferences for that kind of media.

Why do people say that when when we are holding Putin to account for what happened, we mean that he ordered the strike? :confused: The fact of the matter is that Putin gives support to the rebels, both financially and with supplies for the fight. He could have not done a thing and this situation would be dead and buried and no plane would have been shot down because there would be no more fighting sinc the rebels would have lost a long time ago.

I wonder if I fancy a review of Australia's relations with Imperial Britain.
 

Dear FAZ editorial board,

In light of the continued sucktitude of the Spiegel i propose you ditch politics and economic news and make the paper just wall to wall acticles in the tone and rhetorics of an old age conservative intellectual firebrand about how this years Prada is really terribly overappreciated. And things like that.
Trust me. It'll be amazeballs.

Sincerely
metatron

Tell me you actually sent that.
 
There are three news outlets in the UK worth mentioning: the Independent, the Guardian and the BBC.

Reading something other than those three is like getting your news from graffiti scrawled inside a toilet cubicle.
Reading news media these days resembles panning for gold in a river bed. There may be some small nuggets here and there, but there's plenty of dirt around it to be washed out first.

You implied they have credits to begin with?

But reading Pravda's news along with nude women...

Insomuch as people read them and put stock in what they say, they do have credits of a sort.
I must have missed all the scantily-clad women in the issues of the Economist I've read over the years.
The Economist specializes in alternative pornography.

I'm not sure why you'd want to support a leader who authorised the use of live fire against protesters either.
Most national governments (I don't think that's changed for the UK;)) maintain the legality of deadly force in response to an armed mob engaging in conflict with law enforcement and military personnel (and this puts aside the question of who actually ordered them to fire).
 
It's pretty much average polemic hyped-bs nonsense by now.
I thought that was commonly agreed upon. Apparently "commonly" didn't include Terx. :)
No, it did not it.

By now, in deed, a pattern has emerged on my part.

I make a point of making the departure of my naiveties a long, hard and embarrassing one. :(

Still, I think Spiegel is getting worse rather than staying the same. Which means it must have been relatively better, at least. While the standard may be low to begin with, I kinda feel things are still worsening compared to stay 10 or even 3 years ago.
 
Call it propaganda if you want, but to me it's not really propaganda unless the state is involved.

Does the German government in any way own or control this publication? If so, then this could very well be propaganda. If not, then it's just a cover story designed to sell.

You're basically talking about tabloids here. They will print anything.

"Putin ate my baby"
"Putin has a twin brother on the moon"
"Putin is half shark"
"Putin is German and will be running for election in Germany in 2016"
 
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