A fun game of Kublai!

[Fippy]

I'm more likely to accept Archery with hunting, but i so hate teching both

 

[sampsa]

I'm more likely to accept Archery with hunting

Ah yes, less disgusting then indeed.

 

[krikav]

Map looks like it lends itself somewhat to warrior defense too, lots of small hammers in capital due to PH settlement and the brow sheeps.
With a mine, one should be able to crank them out rather quick.
Then again... seeing the enterance to a tundra/ice hellscape that there is no telling how large it is, paired with the fact that you start with map knowledge that:
1) It's iso. and 2) It's tough. tips the scales heavily to archery.

Besides, you need archery to invade with keshiks!

 

[Donald Duck1]

Spoiler :

For what it's worth, on my 2nd or 3rd attempt I built a barracks after worker. The cover-promoted warriors allowed delaying archery a bit, saving a lot of hammers on replacements.

 

[krikav]

@Donald Duck1 That is a good and valid strategy which works in alot of situations!

 

[sampsa]

T42

Spoiler :

Agri-AH-mining-pottery-(writing). Without CRE I'd never go writing so quickly. Chose to not road 1W of capital for free and was rewarded with a forest growth. After improving food, built a road to settle 1T faster, then a superstronk plains mine, considered building a 2nd one N of cap but just couldn't do it so mined a green non-river hill. Capital builds were worker-warrior-(barracks)-settler@3-barracks-warrior-warrior-warrior-settler. I just realized that barbs won't enter before I have 3 cities, so some time to set up some fog busting. Should double every spot I guess, cover warriors can't take double archers anyway. I start to think BW before writing is much better. I think I'd even want to chop warriors so that the defence holds. Oh well. Maybe CRE libraries are really good in isolation though.

edit: there is a prick in the west, would be so much easier if scout could just fog bust that area, but now need to settle 3rd to lure it into attacking my cover warrior in the forest.

T48

Spoiler :

I just realized barbs do enter. So was it that they enter when average number of cities passes 3 globally, not on your continent like I recalled?

 

[krikav]

Looks nice @sampsa especially that PH-mine, that one looks so nice!

I did a second attempt too, SiP.

Spoiler T57 :

I had alot of forest growth too!

Felt soo much safer this time around.

Haven't looked at how it compares yet will do late today.
But it _feels_ much better.

 

[sampsa]

T60

Spoiler :

@krikav Your game looks good indeed, even if I believe mostly in expansion.

Looks nice @sampsa especially that PH-mine, that one looks so nice!

Too bad they looted it.

I think my intuition on BW was wrong. I haven't chopped a single forest yet, not sure if I'm taking slavery even. For what, with no ? Going monarchy, can't stand these tiny cities.

 

[krikav]

@sampsa

Spoiler :

Not sure about SiP, but I had an intuitive feel that it would have been good once I started the game first time around. I liked the settling pattern of SiP and second city. Might have to move palace in a 100 turns but thats ok.
Went AH->Archery->Mining->Agri this time.

Too bad with the pillaged mine, did one come from the north or did they just bypass the city? I find that it's not that easy to steer the barbs, they don't seem to be as suicidal as Monty.
Look at my T47 screenshot, making a wall of defenders there to not give any path forward.

Yeah, i too think BW is kind of iffy, the floodplains takes some time, and also just moving the workers around is problematic due to rivers, hills and forest.
Slavery has some value as an emergency button though. Nice to have a hammer invested in a defender in cities ready to whip if a forward defender dies when it shouldn't.

Do you see any queues for alpha here? In my first attempt I found myself building archers for military police as there was simply nothing useful to put hammers into. But that could have been due to bad development earlier.
Considering if it would be worth it to go alpha to build research and aim to bulb optics. Math is a pre-req but with so many forests around, and delayed chopping anyway, math might not be such a waste.

 

[sampsa]

@krikav

Spoiler :

Too bad with the pillaged mine, did one come from the north or did they just bypass the city? I find that it's not that easy to steer the barbs, they don't seem to be as suicidal as Monty.
Look at my T47 screenshot, making a wall of defenders there to not give any path forward.

Three barbs entered simultaneously and with warriors it's harder to create walls like that, they simply die to two attackers too often. Though maybe could've sacrificed one. I also wasn't really ready because I thought they can't enter yet.

Do you see any queues for alpha here? In my first attempt I found myself building archers for military police as there was simply nothing useful to put hammers into. But that could have been due to bad development earlier.
Considering if it would be worth it to go alpha to build research and aim to bulb optics. Math is a pre-req but with so many forests around, and delayed chopping anyway, math might not be such a waste.

Intuitively, no. I think monarchy+units will pay back better with cottageable land, though I'm definitely not an iso expert. Maybe there is a case for not rushing to optics-astro line at all? Maybe even going for an academy.

T70

Spoiler :

Barb axes... Can't skip archery forever then I guess. Not in love with how this is going, even if the expansion is pretty nice, libraries online soon etc. Barbs are costing me a lot of worker turns and now also the I thought I saved by not going archery.

 

[krikav]

Ok, comparisson T57 (T58) try1 vs try2:

Spoiler :

I was suprised by this, I thought I where crushing the first attempt, but there are things to be said for both.

3 workers in the first try instead of 2, but 1 more warrior and one more archer in the second try.

Cottages are abit more mature first time around, abit more gold in the bank and about a turn ahead in tech, also closer to an academy guy, food bar in capital is full and a settler is underway.

Only tangible things that are clearly superior in second try is that the library in Beshebalik also is finished. (Well, and that it has a barracks, but thats hardly a gain).
Whats clearly superior though, even though it isn't as concrete, is the superior natural fogbusting from culture, and the much securer position overall.

 

[krikav]

@sampsa

Spoiler :

GSci/Academy etc:
In iso, I find myself making an academy in almost every single game.
The first GSci comes fast enough, and it's almost always easy to guarantee GSci2 and GSci3 before around T130/T140, it's just to have the third city library ready before T90.
What do you do differently when you skip academy in iso? I'm guessing you have a easier time abit later, when I'm usually scrambling for my fourth to make a timely GA.


Alpha/Math/Monarchy:
I didn't think alpha/math and optics bulb instead of monarchy, but in addition to monarchy.
I think it's as fast as just going straight for optics as you bulb it, but you lose academy.

But when you mention it, I guess ignoring monarchy could have some merits here too, settle 5 (6?) cities pretty tightly and stagnate on a good mix of food/specialists and grass/plains-cottages.

Not sure about delaying astro. No islands, and although the land is good it isn't super. And there is no happines at all and can't build warriors for all cities.
If I had this amount of land in my normal iso games, I would be pretty happy about myself, but here it's low sea level so I think that probably changes things.

And your game:

Spoiler :

I think skipping archery requires that one establishes total dominance of the island rather fast. Even when spears starts to spawn causes nightmares with warrior defence.
If the island is to big, or something other complicates things, the value in warriors is in that you can delay archery not avoid it.

Your T70 still looks better than my first T70 situation was, save for that nasty axe.

 

[krikav]

Oh, barbs entering...
You said something about them not entering before third city..?
Thats certainly not the case.
The barb invasion wave starts when the average number of cities reaches a certain threshold, can't remember exact number but it depends alot on how fast the AIs settle their cities, and it plays a huge part in what makes deity so much tougher when it comes to barbs.

 

[sampsa]

Oh, barbs entering...
You said something about them not entering before third city..?
Thats certainly not the case.

Yep, that was some major . I think what I had in mind is barb cities? They are allowed to be generated when the (amount of cities on continent/amount of leaders on continent => 3)? I'm not surprised if even this is complete nonsense.

 

[sampsa]

In iso, I find myself making an academy in almost every single game.

Makes sense, I mean it will be a long game and especially here, -generation starts very early.

What do you do differently when you skip academy in iso? I'm guessing you have a easier time abit later, when I'm usually scrambling for my fourth to make a timely GA.

If skipping academy, I'd use the saved food to expand more and to grow more, which needs monarchy certainly. Yep a bit easier to get the post-bulbs GA, but it's not easy to say how big the impact is. But I do think that on this map an academy is good, simply because it's possible to get it so early thanks to CRE.

 

[krikav]

@sampsa
I'll try math->alpha and then straight to optics then, with the intent of bulbing optics and not going academy. Will be fun to compare!

Spoiler T57 overview+plan :

After BW, I'll go for math. Will probably chop at least two forests to get two more workers out in a hurry. Then pre-chop.
Post-math, get 4 more cities rapidly, starting with the westernmost first (as the rice/sheep isn't utilized properly now).
Then possibly the northwest one because it's safe, then wheat which should be safe by then, and lastly the southern sheep, which I'm not sure how to place, but I need one more coastal city for sure.
Then Alpha and then straight to optics which will be bulbed.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler To T80 (soon T83) :

Built one worker in Beshebalik and chopped out one in Karakorum and did some pre-chops, now math is in and the chopfest begins!

Having peaks in culture is really nice, the tile 1E of clam is visible and archer can push forward.

I have yet to revolt to slavery, and I don't think I will either. Turfan is a city that kinds of needs slavery... I want the library there, but I also need to either pre-whip something for overflow, or save the forests for a caravel. But slavery means one turn of anarchy, and also costs me 1gpt at minimum.
So I just let poor Turfan slow-build the last of it's library instead.

The archer that will soon be known as axeslayer taunts the barbarian foe into making a suicidal attack.
The northern archer is injured and is moving north to where a city will be placed, and a fresh archer is meeting up to handle the barb archer.

Not sure if this barb city is good or bad... Probably good? I can train some siege against it, and/or take it when it's abit more mature.
But I was sort of planning to settle on that PH and chop out a caravel there @ optics.

Consider this spot instead. Rather bleak city though.. Just a brown hilled sheep. And not even CS makes it much better with only one green tile.

Think this is a good way to settle the south. One city for the clam that also reaches some nice green tiles, and then one city for the sheep+marble and some forests.
That leaves room for a good lategame/endgame city in the middle too. Anyone else thinking differently?

This is poor turfans fate.
It hurts my eyes and my soul to see food not being worked, but what can I do?

 

[Nick723]

@krikav Overall looks very promising!

Not sure on your rationale for saving those forests for caravels however? They are an easy whip and then you could chop the library and probably get there sooner anyway.

I actually think with this happy cap, food tiles are pretty underwhelming. If a city has more food ooo than it needs to work 2 scientists then it doesn’t add much. Eg. In turfan better off working rice, one plains cottage and 2 scientists and making use of the sheep elsewhere.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T83 :

Look @sampsa ! It seems like all the "No chop"-guys have been right all along.

Situation at alphabet.
Generating 46 bpt sustained now, of which 10 is building research.
I think this should jump up to about 60 rather quickly as Turfan, Ninghisa and Old-Sarai matures.
I need to generate 2672 beakers to be able to bulb optics, so that will likely happen sometime between T120 and T130.
I think I can manage to get the third GSci at T132 so if the stars align I could be able to pull off a T133 Astro or something like that.

Now workers will need to put down the last few urgent cottages, and then start to pre-road and pre-chop the post-optics city spots.

 

[krikav]

@Nick723
The rationale:

Spoiler :

I don't want to revolt to slavery, because I don't need to do any whipping at all, except for maybe this library, and maybe some pre-whipping to get overflow into caravels.
I don't want the turn of anarchy as it would slow me down.
And slavery cost in upkeep too, right now it's 1 gold per turn, but it will likely increase soon.

The point with forests (and pre-whipped overflow) is that you can get 60+ hammers overflow into caravels on the same turn as you discover optics.
Then they fly out of the harbour on the turn after optics.

If you want to whip caravels, you have to on optics turn put hammers into them, and then whip them on the turn after optics and they are leaving the harbour two turns after optics disovery.

Regarding the food:

Spoiler :

Yes!
This is precicely why I thought it was so urgent to settle Turfan. Neither of the other two cities needed the rice, and that food was essentially being wasted.
The bottleneck I'm facing now is 100% commerce, so it does makes sense to not work the food...
But it _still_ hurts my eyes and my soul!