A New Dawn Bug Reports and Feedback

[Spobe]

I notice the same sort of problem with the Food Processing Plant overtaking Bakery

Yeah, it's exactly what I described in my previous post.

 

[BobTheBull]

AndarielHalo is incorrect about the effects of grocer and supermarket. Grocer gives at most 7 extra commerce (added to base commerce) from resources, +1 happiness and +1 unhealthy (for tobacco) and +25% gold, calculated after base commerce is added up.

Supermarket gives +1 food, +4 health from resources and -2 unhealthy from tobacco, for a net of +2 health, and +3 happy from coffee, tea and tobacco.

The net difference is +1 food, +1 health, +2 happy, -7 base commerce and -25% gold. The net loss in gold will be (BC-7*.25), so the larger base commerce is the lower the overall percentage will be, while with a very low BC the percentage loss will be high. There is also a loss of research, culture and espionage due to the -7 loss of base culture, although not nearly as much as gold loss.

For example, if you have 100 BC with 35% tax rate, 45% research and 20% culture the result would be:

(100*.35)*1.25 = 43.75 gold with grocer.
(100-7)*.35 = 32.55 gold with supermarket, a loss of 25.6%.

(100*.45) = 45 research with grocer.
(100-7)*.45 = 41.85 research with supermarket, a loss of 7%.

Note these are simplified calculations; actual in game calculations are much more complex. In an in game test I found actual changes of -26.8% gold, -18% research, -9.5% culture and -11% espionage. Some of this was due to changes in base contributions from specialists after constructing the supermarket. It was getting too complicated so I have not pursued the minute differences in calculation between turns other than SM, which do seem to hold up.

Note also that the actual change numbers you get while hovering over supermarket are all off, with no discernible pattern I could see. They do not correspond to actual changes in base or total results in any category.

That's how it works in general. As to why I don't know. By building supermarket you pick up food, health and happiness, which at the stage in the game it becomes available are quite useful. You could say you have the option to trade off the financial benefits for other needed benefits. At that point there are other buildings which can replace the lost benefits. Since this is supposed to be an upgrade of the grocery it does seem questionable. You can restore the bonus resources and icommerce bonus to the supermarket if you think that is more appropriate.

 

[AndarielHalo]

AndarielHalo is incorrect about the effects of grocer and supermarket. Grocer gives at most 7 extra commerce (added to base commerce) from resources, +1 happiness and +1 unhealthy (for tobacco) and +25%, calculated after base commerce is added up.

Supermarket gives +1 food, +4 health from resources and -2 unhealthy from tobacco, for a net of +2 health, and +3 happy from coffee, tea and tobacco.

The net difference is +1 food, +1 health, +2 happy, -7 base commerce and -25% gold. The net loss in gold will be (BC-7*.25), so the larger base commerce is the lower the overall percentage will be, while with a very low BC the percentage loss will be high. There is also a loss of research, culture and espionage due to the -7 loss of base culture, although not nearly as much as gold loss.

For example, if you have 100 BC with 35% tax rate, 45% research and 20% culture the result would be:

(100*.35)*1.25 = 43.75 gold with grocer.
(100-7)*.35 = 32.55 gold with supermarket, a loss of 25.6%.

(100*.45) = 45 research with grocer.
(100-7)*.45 = 41.85 research with supermarket, a loss of 7%.

Note these are simplified calculations; actual in game calculations are much more complex. In an in game test I found actual changes of -26.8% gold, -18% research, -9.5% culture and -11% espionage. Some of this was due to changes in base contributions from specialists after constructing the supermarket. It was getting too complicated so I have not pursued the differences between turns other than SM.

Note also that the actual change numbers you get while hovering over supermarket are all off, with no discernible pattern I could see. They do not correspond to actual changes in base or total results in any category.

That's how it works in general. As to why I don't know. by building supermarket you pick up food, health and happiness, which at the stage in the game it becomes available are quite useful. You could say you have the option to trade off the financial benefits for other needed benefits. At that point there are other buildings which can replace the lost benefits. Since this is supposed to be an upgrade of the grocery it does seem questionable. You can restore the bonus resources and icommerce bonus to the supermarket if you wish.

Too much math, can't read, though you said I'm incorrect. Thus, them's fightin words.


But another real problem I'm having unrelated is, late in the game, the game is crashing if I scroll around the map too much, or if I click on the minimap ONCE. It also freezes if I try to zoom out to get a global view.

 

[Spobe]

AndarielHalo is incorrect about the effects of grocer and supermarket. Grocer gives at most 7 extra commerce (added to base commerce) from resources, +1 happiness and +1 unhealthy (for tobacco) and +25% gold, calculated after base commerce is added up.

Supermarket gives +1 food, +4 health from resources and -2 unhealthy from tobacco, for a net of +2 health, and +3 happy from coffee, tea and tobacco.

The net difference is +1 food, +1 health, +2 happy, -7 base commerce and -25% gold. The net loss in gold will be (BC-7*.25), so the larger base commerce is the lower the overall percentage will be, while with a very low BC the percentage loss will be high. There is also a loss of research, culture and espionage due to the -7 loss of base culture, although not nearly as much as gold loss.

For example, if you have 100 BC with 35% tax rate, 45% research and 20% culture the result would be:

(100*.35)*1.25 = 43.75 gold with grocer.
(100-7)*.35 = 32.55 gold with supermarket, a loss of 25.6%.

(100*.45) = 45 research with grocer.
(100-7)*.45 = 41.85 research with supermarket, a loss of 7%.

Note these are simplified calculations; actual in game calculations are much more complex. In an in game test I found actual changes of -26.8% gold, -18% research, -9.5% culture and -11% espionage. Some of this was due to changes in base contributions from specialists after constructing the supermarket. It was getting too complicated so I have not pursued the minute differences in calculation between turns other than SM, which do seem to hold up.

Note also that the actual change numbers you get while hovering over supermarket are all off, with no discernible pattern I could see. They do not correspond to actual changes in base or total results in any category.

That's how it works in general. As to why I don't know. By building supermarket you pick up food, health and happiness, which at the stage in the game it becomes available are quite useful. You could say you have the option to trade off the financial benefits for other needed benefits. At that point there are other buildings which can replace the lost benefits. Since this is supposed to be an upgrade of the grocery it does seem questionable. You can restore the bonus resources and icommerce bonus to the supermarket if you think that is more appropriate.

...Which is remedied by what I prescribed a couple of posts back.

 

[BobTheBull]

What you said, AndarielHalo, was that supermarket caused -50 resource, -100 culture and -30 gold. I am pointing out the actual losses are much less, although you do lose in each category. The -30 for gold is the closest. And no, this does not make any sense.

If the math is too much for you, just take my word that you will lose 25-30% gold, 15-20% research and ~10% culture and espionage with typical settings for overall rates for each of those in a game. I did that because this topic has come up several times without any specific numbers. I noticed that the mouse over popup was reporting actual figures would be much less and wanted to find out exactly how it worked. I did and reported it; I also found out the popup is not very close to actuality, which makes me wonder if other popups are also wrong. Is this a true bug?

 

[BobTheBull]

Went back and reread what spobe said, especially about some upgrade paths not being fully developed and that makes sense. To fix the grocer upgrade:

Copy the <CommerceModifiers> section and paste it into the supermarket block and copy the entire <BonusYieldChanges> block into the supermarket block. Grocer also gives 2 merchant specialists (that's what made the specialist contribution go down), so copy <SpecialistsCount> block as well. Now you have a supermarked with the +1 food, +3 health, +2 happiness without reducing any of the other benefits. Previously I said +1 health, but SM gives a net +2 health, +4 from resources -2 from tobacco; Grocer gives -1 health from tobacco, so the net difference is +3. These gains did hold up in in game testing.

The only other difference is flavor; grocer flavor is gold, while SM flavor is growth. Never understood what flavor does nor found any explanation other than the AI uses it to determine what to build, so I would not mess with that without knowing more.

Of course, you then need to do the same with modified SM and Hypermarket. Maybe if I get some time this weekend I will look at the upgrade paths specifically mentioned and "fix" them and post the modified xml file here. If anyone knows other upgrade paths needing fixing please post it here.

 

[os79]

Easier for you just to look at Building Upgrades page in Civilopedia. If you are using RAND 1.75 and later, then you should be fine with posting your ideas.

 

[AndarielHalo]

What you said, AndarielHalo, was that supermarket caused -50 resource, -100 culture and -30 gold. I am pointing out the actual losses are much less, although you do lose in each category. The -30 for gold is the closest. And no, this does not make any sense.

If the math is too much for you, just take my word that you will lose 25-30% gold, 15-20% research and ~10% culture and espionage with typical settings for overall rates for each of those in a game. I did that because this topic has come up several times without any specific numbers. I noticed that the mouse over popup was reporting actual figures would be much less and wanted to find out exactly how it worked. I did and reported it; I also found out the popup is not very close to actuality, which makes me wonder if other popups are also wrong. Is this a true bug?

That just creates a worse problem of mis-reporting things! Earlier in the game, there were tons of buildings that reported giving - despite decreasing maintenance. I completely ignored the Village Halls/their respective upgrades which had wild-ass accusations from - to - - - and ended up being either total lies or their own random-ass distribution of citizens.



I've found that Fascist is the greatest government type to use, because it offers NO war weariness, and Checkpoints, which bump some commerce and give yet more experience to new infantry units. Federal is totally useless given its +100 War weariness, and Democracy was tempting for all of two turns, when all the district offices promised NEGATIVE Maintenance, and ended up reporting that they would cause -



And even if the reported losses for a Supermarket are much less than reported, THEY ARE STILL LESS. This is not logical by any stretch of the imagination; go to a local grocery store, then go to a big-ass supermarket. How the hell does the grocery store offer MORE than the supermarket in terms of commodities? Leaving aside the fact that the Grocer shouldn't even be REPLACED by the Supermarket, but supplemented, the idea that a goddamn GROCER is somehow superior to a MODERN SUPERMARKET is mind-bogglingly stupid. Like a Springfield 1855 being considered superior to an M1 Garand

 

[generalstaff]

And even if the reported losses for a Supermarket are much less than reported, THEY ARE STILL LESS. This is not logical by any stretch of the imagination; go to a local grocery store, then go to a big-ass supermarket. How the hell does the grocery store offer MORE than the supermarket in terms of commodities? Leaving aside the fact that the Grocer shouldn't even be REPLACED by the Supermarket, but supplemented, the idea that a goddamn GROCER is somehow superior to a MODERN SUPERMARKET is mind-bogglingly stupid. Like a Springfield 1855 being considered superior to an M1 Garand

That was something that I didn't get either, and which pained me when adding UBs which replace Grocer and Supermarket. It is the second most thing which bothered me (the most being the fact that Early Buildings and Civics Buildings aren't easy for me the mod to my liking, but that has to do with the modder side of me).

It shouldn't be Hypermarket replaces Supermarket replaces Grocer.
It should be Hypermarket requires Supermarket requires Grocer; no replacement.

If the problem is balance, then raise the beaker costs of techs 10-20%, as well as unit upgrade costs. Since the Grocer adds extra gold and commerce, that should be the the best fix for it. The extra health from the Supermarket shouldn't matter much by the time the Hypermarket is available due to the nature of the Future era.

 

[AndarielHalo]

I have two questions unrelated to my prior complaining:


1) Is there a way to make it easier for vassal states to break away from their overlords? I hate having to disable vassal states because a vassal will remain fanatically loyal to their conqueror even after being completely exploited and forced to pay obscene tribute on a regular basis.


2) Nuclear fallout is WAY too frequent in occurring. In this game, I have used maybe 10 nuclear weapons in total; three atomic bombs and a bunch more ICBMs, and now, even after 30 years and close to 200 or 300 turns, I'm getting radioactive dust destroying plot improvements EVERY SINGLE TURN.

 

[BobTheBull]

I gotta agree with generalstaff. After studying the upgrade tree, grocer, SM and HM should require the previous building but not replace it. You might also want to give the latter two a 5-10% commerce bonus which will apply on top of the 25% for grocer, but leave everything else as is. Make sense to me, and I garantee ya we have all three in New Orleans.

The grocer seems to be the most egregious case for upgrades, as losing >25% gold, plus significant losses of research, culture and espionage is crazy. The latter three have nothing to do with grocers and supermarkets. Overall, if you upgrade all your cities to SM's you take a significant economic hit for the entire empire. I'm no economist, but that's just wrong.

Food processing plant is just behind grocer. Again, they should exist side by side. Food processing plants are completely different operations from bakeries, and we have both here as well.

Don't see what connection there is between artesian wells and canneries. They should just be separated. The rest of the building upgrades seem pretty OK to me.

@AndarielHalo

1) There is a section for strategies in the Sevopedia, close to the bottom of the list. In this there is an explanation of Vassal mechanics. It explains the conditions under which the vassal can break the relation, but states that currently there is no way for the master to break it, so be careful in acquiring them. Still, you might find something you can do to get the vassal to break off.

2) Haven't gotten that far so don't know much about fallout in RAND. But, I'm a little confused; you say 30 years and close to 200-300 turns. That many turns would be a lot more than 30 years. But, if you did use that many nukes, and that's a lot, you certainly would expect a lot of radiation fallout for many years; the half life of uranium is 250,000 years. In previous civ's workers could clean up fallout. I believe this is still available.

 

[AndarielHalo]

@AndarielHalo

1) There is a section for strategies in the Sevopedia, close to the bottom of the list. In this there is an explanation of Vassal mechanics. It explains the conditions under which the vassal can break the relation, but states that currently there is no way for the master to break it, so be careful in acquiring them. Still, you might find something you can do to get the vassal to break off.

2) Haven't gotten that far so don't know much about fallout in RAND. But, I'm a little confused; you say 30 years and close to 200-300 turns. That many turns would be a lot more than 30 years. But, if you did use that many nukes, and that's a lot, you certainly would expect a lot of radiation fallout for many years; the half life of uranium is 250,000 years. In previous civ's workers could clean up fallout. I believe this is still available.

This suggestion of "be careful in acquiring them" does not apply to EVERY SINGLE AI IN THE GAME EVER who chooses to acquire them no matter what, to the point where by the 1500s, the game has devolved to Me, a few nothings, and one superpower with over 9000 vassal states that NEVER break away.


For the second, I altered the years-per-turn to be less wildly ******** and I exaggerated---it's closer to 100-200 turns. And that many nukes honestly can't be that much that fallout starts appearing EVERY TURN, EVERYWHERE. And not ONCE every turn, but MULTIPLE TIMES every turn. I have to double my workforce just to clear fallout that appears nowhere near where nuclear weapons were used. I recognize that nuclear fallout can spread thousands of miles, but I'm pretty sure we didn't have nuclear fallout in Brazil, Finland, South Africa, and New Zealand when nuclear weapons were used in World War II

 

[Spobe]

Easier for you just to look at Building Upgrades page in Civilopedia. If you are using RAND 1.75 and later, then you should be fine with posting your ideas.

I... Said several posts ago that it's easily spotted by viewing the Building Upgrades page in the Civilopedia.

Poor Spobe. Nobody seems to listen to him.

 

[Spobe]

Went back and reread what spobe said, especially about some upgrade paths not being fully developed and that makes sense.

At least somebody finally did.

Like you showed in your post, it's pretty easy to fix, especially when you can see exactly what's wrong in the Building Upgrades page.

 

[Spobe]

That was something that I didn't get either, and which pained me when adding UBs which replace Grocer and Supermarket. It is the second most thing which bothered me (the most being the fact that Early Buildings and Civics Buildings aren't easy for me the mod to my liking, but that has to do with the modder side of me).

It shouldn't be Hypermarket replaces Supermarket replaces Grocer.
It should be Hypermarket requires Supermarket requires Grocer; no replacement.

If the problem is balance, then raise the beaker costs of techs 10-20%, as well as unit upgrade costs. Since the Grocer adds extra gold and commerce, that should be the the best fix for it. The extra health from the Supermarket shouldn't matter much by the time the Hypermarket is available due to the nature of the Future era.

Yes, but we can get the same results without having a bunch of needless extra building clutter by simply keeping the same bonus commerce values (and adding a few more for the Hypermarket, such as movies, alcohol, etc.) and boosting them so that it's not necessary to have said clutter of buildings. For instance, the Grocer gives +1 commerce to various bonus resources. The Supermarket, then, should give +2 to the same ones as well as the additional meats that have been added to the lineup (not just for health anymore!), and the Hypermarket should give +3. And keep in mind that the Hypermarket should keep the health bonuses provided by the Supermarket, since it would obviously still sell those products.

Effective. Efficient. Solved.

 

[generalstaff]

Yes, but we can get the same results without having a bunch of needless extra building clutter by simply keeping the same bonus commerce values (and adding a few more for the Hypermarket, such as movies, alcohol, etc.) and boosting them so that it's not necessary to have said clutter of buildings. For instance, the Grocer gives +1 commerce to various bonus resources. The Supermarket, then, should give +2 to the same ones as well as the additional meats that have been added to the lineup (not just for health anymore!), and the Hypermarket should give +3. And keep in mind that the Hypermarket should keep the health bonuses provided by the Supermarket, since it would obviously still sell those products.

Effective. Efficient. Solved.

I see what you did there.

Having the Grocer -> Supermarket -> Hypermarket path being the same as the Harbor ->...International Port path. Having each upgrade keep the bonuses of the building before it is another good solution. The only issue with that is the same issue that came up with the Harbor upgrade path, it makes some civ's UBs comparatively weak since their UB bonus would be upgraded out. Personally, that is a minor issue which does not bother me, but it has been brought up before with no good solutions found.

 

[AndarielHalo]

How do you cut down on the frequency of radioactive dust/fallout occurring? Because it's getting extremely excessive now, even though nuclear weapons haven't been used in decades. Every turn, between 5 and 10 regions around the entire world become affected by fallout.

 

[Spobe]

I see what you did there.

Having the Grocer -> Supermarket -> Hypermarket path being the same as the Harbor ->...International Port path. Having each upgrade keep the bonuses of the building before it is another good solution. The only issue with that is the same issue that came up with the Harbor upgrade path, it makes some civ's UBs comparatively weak since their UB bonus would be upgraded out. Personally, that is a minor issue which does not bother me, but it has been brought up before with no good solutions found.

It's really too minor to worry about, since so many civs have had their UUs steamrolled by new units in RoM:AND. The Heavy Tank/IS2 totally kills the Panzer, and it comes literally a few turns after. There are more, but that one is particularly glaring.

 

[Flay]

any news about the new devDCM and AND?

 

[JosEPh_II]

Thanks for that. Now, how do I disenable Mastery?

At game set up screen for a New game. Can't be done once you've started already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by generalstaff View Post
That was something that I didn't get either, and which pained me when adding UBs which replace Grocer and Supermarket. It is the second most thing which bothered me (the most being the fact that Early Buildings and Civics Buildings aren't easy for me the mod to my liking, but that has to do with the modder side of me).

It shouldn't be Hypermarket replaces Supermarket replaces Grocer.
It should be Hypermarket requires Supermarket requires Grocer; no replacement.

If the problem is balance, then raise the beaker costs of techs 10-20%, as well as unit upgrade costs. Since the Grocer adds extra gold and commerce, that should be the the best fix for it. The extra health from the Supermarket shouldn't matter much by the time the Hypermarket is available due to the nature of the Future era.

Yes, but we can get the same results without having a bunch of needless extra building clutter by simply keeping the same bonus commerce values (and adding a few more for the Hypermarket, such as movies, alcohol, etc.) and boosting them so that it's not necessary to have said clutter of buildings. For instance, the Grocer gives +1 commerce to various bonus resources. The Supermarket, then, should give +2 to the same ones as well as the additional meats that have been added to the lineup (not just for health anymore!), and the Hypermarket should give +3. And keep in mind that the Hypermarket should keep the health bonuses provided by the Supermarket, since it would obviously still sell those products.

Effective. Efficient. Solved.

And here you have the exact example of why I didn't like killtech's method for upgrades. This is his handy work in full bloom. He preferred % over +/-. He convinced Afforess to use it and now others are seeing it (the problem) too. But both killtech and afforess have moved on. And I got blamed as a troublemaker for my protests. Which is why I stopped testing AND.

JosEPh