A New Dawn Bug Reports and Feedback

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I did 20 test games myself (standard size, 8 players), and I wound up with one AI with 5 or more religions half the time. I'm not sure if this is more a problem with the religion system or just one civilization being tech leader. I did note that Maya is in an excellent position to grab Kemetism at the start of the game, since they start with Ritualism + Stone Tools, the prereqs for Ceremonial Burial.

Well, with 8 players only it's not very surprising I think. I've tried with 12 and I'm doing some more testing, I'll let you know.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

You have a good point on the skippability of Matchlock. I didn't realize how self-contained the Renaissance military techs are. That was there in the original tech tree, though. It could be that you just noticed it. One thing that I did change was that Flintlock and Riflinghad absolutely astronomical flavor values: Flintlock had Military flavor 55 and Production flavor 25, and Rifling had Military flavor 35. I thought that was a mistake because I had only seen a handful of other techs above 10 (Mountaineering had 35's, so I toned those down, but I left Corporation and Derivatives with Gold flavor at 15) so I reduced them to 10. How do flavor values play into AI tech choices?

I don't remember exactly the code but I guess those value were set so high to help AI research some military tech that for some reason was being skipped

One thing that does come to mind for fixing Matchlock somewhat is to move the exit of Explosives from Refining to Steam Power. That would mean you would need the entire Gunpowder-Matchlock-Flintlock-Explosives line to get into Steam Power and from there into the rest of the Industrial Era.

I don't think that would solve the problem; the main problem is that Matchlock is being discovered very late and Flintlock is being discovered right after Matchlock because other techs have been discovered in the meantime before Matchlock.
We could do some test restoring original flavour values; those value haven't been changed since AND 1.75 so I guess Afforess was their original author.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Well, with 8 players only it's not very surprising I think. I've tried with 12 and I'm doing some more testing, I'll let you know.

It's Very easy to split the Poly/Mono/Buddha string so that a Tech leader will Not get all 3 of these religions. It involves the OR and AND preg techs to be changed.

Just got back from the trip and will post some possible alternatives tomorrow or the next day.

Off the top of my head removing Poly as a preq for Mono is the simplest change to start with. And for Mon after removing Poly insert Ceremonial Sacrifice and remove Writing. Kemet comes too early now too as it is Not an older religion than Mono (nor is Hindu older either). Same for Zorast. In fact zorast is combo of Mono, Islam, and another religion so it's waaaay to early in the tech tree.

JosEPh

 

[Vokarya]

It's Very easy to split the Poly/Mono/Buddha string so that a Tech leader will Not get all 3 of these religions. It involves the OR and AND preg techs to be changed.

I didn't see that happen very often. Judaism especially stood alone a lot in my testing. I wrote down who had which religions when I reached turn 400. I'd really need some time to sift through the combinations. I see Hellenism-Buddhism a lot as a combination, but those two techs are both right at the beginning of the Classical Era.

EDIT: You do have a point about a player sweeping up all of those religions. I did notice that when I did my testing, it was very rare to see anything be researched that wasn't on the most direct path to Mathematics.

Off the top of my head removing Poly as a preq for Mono is the simplest change to start with. And for Mon after removing Poly insert Ceremonial Sacrifice and remove Writing. Kemet comes too early now too as it is Not an older religion than Mono (nor is Hindu older either). Same for Zorast. In fact zorast is combo of Mono, Islam, and another religion so it's waaaay to early in the tech tree.

Zoroastrianism is ancient. Maybe you are thinking of Baha'i? Kemetism is another one that I see standing alone often. It's a very ancient religion (Pyramid Texts date to 2400 BCE) so I'm not sure what else it could be moved to.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I didn't see that happen very often. Judaism especially stood alone a lot in my testing. I wrote down who had which religions when I reached turn 400. I'd really need some time to sift through the combinations. I see Hellenism-Buddhism a lot as a combination, but those two techs are both right at the beginning of the Classical Era.

Same here in my test games.

In fact zorast is combo of Mono, Islam, and another religion so it's waaaay to early in the tech tree.

Not really, Zoroastrianism is definetly older than Islam and it's origin is probably older than Judaism.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

One thing that does come to mind for fixing Matchlock somewhat is to move the exit of Explosives from Refining to Steam Power. That would mean you would need the entire Gunpowder-Matchlock-Flintlock-Explosives line to get into Steam Power and from there into the rest of the Industrial Era.

More on the Matchlock issue. No matter what, Matchlock is being skipped until late renaissance. The only way to prevent this is in my view to move Gunpowder and/or Matchlock earlier in the tech tree.
One way could be switching Political Philosophy and Matchlock in the tech tree. After all, as per your schema Political Philosophy should come AFTER Matchlock. So Matchlock could be a prereq for it. What do you think?

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

About beelining to Math: I need to test some more but I guess the issue is not math in itself. I guess AI simply looks for the fastest path to get to the following era (ancient-->classical), and the same should apply to other later techs as well.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Same here in my test games.



Not really, Zoroastrianism is definetly older than Islam and it's origin is probably older than Judaism.

I did have Ba'hai mixed with Zorast. But Zorast is Not older than the Origin of Judaism. Judaism's foundation can be traced back over 5400 years. Not even Kemet is older than Judaism's origin.

That being an aside, the prereq's for almost all the Religions in AND can be tweaked to give a better spread.
1st is to remove Poly as a preq for Mono and to add Ceremonial Sacrifice to Mono.
2nd Priesthood needs to be moved to before any religion in the Tech tree and give the Religious Civic Prophets.
3rd Writing needs removed as a prereq from the path of the 1st 5 religions.
4th Poly needs to be renamed to Hinduism. Or Poly should not found Hindu but open a path for the religions that have a patheon of gods (such as Hindu, Helenism, and Buddhism, etc)
5th Writing and Alphabet should be a prereq for Christianity, Islam, Confuscism and Taoism.

I need a tech tree document so it would be easier to point out where these changes are needed and to show how they change the path options in the tech tree.

@Vokarya,
Did you make a tech tree doc like what was done in C2C for AND? And if so may I have a copy or a link to it?
@45*38'N,
This is an area that I had considerable input over in C2C and is very much needed in AND as well Impho. I hope you don't shut me out of this process like Afforess did over the Civics. Otherwise what good am I as a team member.

Also down the road I would like to see 3 or 4 more religions added, Tengrii, Shinto, possibly MesoAmerican and/or Andeanism.

JosEPh

 

[Vokarya]

More on the Matchlock issue. No matter what, Matchlock is being skipped until late renaissance. The only way to prevent this is in my view to move Gunpowder and/or Matchlock earlier in the tech tree.
One way could be switching Political Philosophy and Matchlock in the tech tree. After all, as per your schema Political Philosophy should come AFTER Matchlock. So Matchlock could be a prereq for it. What do you think?

Possibly. I'll have to look at how that will affect the rest of the Renaissance. Right now, Matchlock and Political Philosophy are on the same level, so pushing up Political Philosophy pushes up everything else attached.

When does the AI normally research Naval Cannon? I was thinking that requiring Matchlock for NC would work if the AI is going after NC, but if not. NC currently just requires Metallurgy.

 

[buck beach]

Really tough to follow changes through this mods development and to this point I know I have missed plenty. Not a big fan of criticizing any of the tweaks or whining about this or that, but, somewhere along the line the cities were allowed to expand to a 3 square radius without achieving Social Contract and building the Metropolitan Administration.

I think you (collectively) have done a good job with AND2 but my fear is that it will be expanded too much or be made into a big sandbox by making it too easy like some other mods or super cluttering up the building and unit queues.

I am in awe of your abilities and I know it is a really tough job given all the great ideas floating around out there.

Buck

 

[c0dy]

The forever "Waiting for other Civilizations..." bug reared it's head in one of my games.
I am using revision 663 from repo with large map and standard speed. If someone could tell me how to fix it or fix it for me, that'd be nice. Attached game file as .zip

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I did have Ba'hai mixed with Zorast. But Zorast is Not older than the Origin of Judaism. Judaism's foundation can be traced back over 5400 years. Not even Kemet is older than Judaism's origin.

AFAIK Judaism could have been founded about 2000 BC (more or less like Zoroastrianism) (source); Kemetism is a new name but ancient egypt religion has its roots around 3000BC (source Wikipedia).

That being an aside, the prereq's for almost all the Religions in AND can be tweaked to give a better spread.

I concur this is our main goal.

1st is to remove Poly as a preq for Mono and to add Ceremonial Sacrifice to Mono.
2nd Priesthood needs to be moved to before any religion in the Tech tree and give the Religious Civic Prophets.
3rd Writing needs removed as a prereq from the path of the 1st 5 religions.
4th Poly needs to be renamed to Hinduism. Or Poly should not found Hindu but open a path for the religions that have a patheon of gods (such as Hindu, Helenism, and Buddhism, etc)
5th Writing and Alphabet should be a prereq for Christianity, Islam, Confuscism and Taoism.

More or less I agree, although for example making Polytheism as a prereq for Hindu, Hellenism and Buddhism should cause the same problem as Writing now. Moreover, I don't think Buddhism has a pantheon of gods.

@45*38'N,
This is an area that I had considerable input over in C2C and is very much needed in AND as well Impho. I hope you don't shut me out of this process like Afforess did over the Civics. Otherwise what good am I as a team member.

Don't worry, I don't want to shut you out
I also think that religions could be improved and your suggestions seem reasonable to me. But tech tree is Vokarya's playground, so I'll let him answer on the religion issue.

Also down the road I would like to see 3 or 4 more religions added, Tengrii, Shinto, possibly MesoAmerican and/or Andeanism.

I'm not 100% sure this is a good idea. Right now there are 11 religions and most people play with 15 civs more or less. Having 15 religions would definetly mean more religions per civ, which is not necessarily a good or desirable thing. But I'm open to discussion. Vokarya, what do you think?
And what do other players think?

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Really tough to follow changes through this mods development and to this point I know I have missed plenty. Not a big fan of criticizing any of the tweaks or whining about this or that, but, somewhere along the line the cities were allowed to expand to a 3 square radius without achieving Social Contract and building the Metropolitan Administration.

I'm not 100% sure expanding to 3 square radius depends on Metro Admin. It should depend on the cultural level; i.e. a city could expand to 3 sq radius when it reaches "influential" culture. Then, if you've discovered Social Contract, you can build Metro Admin. Nothing should have been changed here.

@c0dy, I'll loot at your save.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Possibly. I'll have to look at how that will affect the rest of the Renaissance. Right now, Matchlock and Political Philosophy are on the same level, so pushing up Political Philosophy pushes up everything else attached.

When does the AI normally research Naval Cannon? I was thinking that requiring Matchlock for NC would work if the AI is going after NC, but if not. NC currently just requires Metallurgy.

Not sure about NC, I'll have a look, but I've definetly seen Frigates (from NC) before any civ had arquebusiers (which is odd to me).

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I was thinking that requiring Matchlock for NC would work if the AI is going after NC,

From a quick test, it looks like it's working. I'll test more but it could be the correct solution.

 

[Vokarya]

From a quick test, it looks like it's working. I'll test more but it could be the correct solution.

That's good. It's probably the most elegant solution possible; nothing else needs to be changed at all.

 

[Vokarya]

I'm not 100% sure expanding to 3 square radius depends on Metro Admin. It should depend on the cultural level; i.e. a city could expand to 3 sq radius when it reaches "influential" culture. Then, if you've discovered Social Contract, you can build Metro Admin. Nothing should have been changed here.

@c0dy, I'll loot at your save.

I think it depends on the game-start option Larger Cities. I'm not completely sure of this, but I believe the effect is supposed to be if it's ON, cities that reach Influential culture status automatically expand to radius-3, and if it's OFF, then you need Metropolitan Administration to reach radius-3.

 

[Vokarya]

I did have Ba'hai mixed with Zorast. But Zorast is Not older than the Origin of Judaism. Judaism's foundation can be traced back over 5400 years. Not even Kemet is older than Judaism's origin.

That being an aside, the prereq's for almost all the Religions in AND can be tweaked to give a better spread.
1st is to remove Poly as a preq for Mono and to add Ceremonial Sacrifice to Mono.
2nd Priesthood needs to be moved to before any religion in the Tech tree and give the Religious Civic Prophets.
3rd Writing needs removed as a prereq from the path of the 1st 5 religions.
4th Poly needs to be renamed to Hinduism. Or Poly should not found Hindu but open a path for the religions that have a patheon of gods (such as Hindu, Helenism, and Buddhism, etc)
5th Writing and Alphabet should be a prereq for Christianity, Islam, Confuscism and Taoism.

I need a tech tree document so it would be easier to point out where these changes are needed and to show how they change the path options in the tech tree.

@Vokarya,
Did you make a tech tree doc like what was done in C2C for AND? And if so may I have a copy or a link to it?
@45*38'N,
This is an area that I had considerable input over in C2C and is very much needed in AND as well Impho. I hope you don't shut me out of this process like Afforess did over the Civics. Otherwise what good am I as a team member.

Also down the road I would like to see 3 or 4 more religions added, Tengrii, Shinto, possibly MesoAmerican and/or Andeanism.

JosEPh

Can we do this in stages? I'm thinking of doing this first:

• Change Monotheism to require Masonry + Priesthood + Sacrifice. That pulls Writing out of Monotheism. It also gives you 5 religions that you can get to without Writing (Kemetism, Judaism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Hellenism).
• Change Code of Laws to require Alphabet + Monarchy. That puts a little more distance between the Ancient Era and Confucianism.

I don't think Tengrii is a good religion to add. I don't see that as having enough of an impact on its own to warrant being added. I probably wouldn't do more than 2-3 more religions. Shinto would be nice, but I'd like to see it in the Medieval Era, as that's when Shinto seems to become more formalized and distinct. The Classical Era is pretty crowded religion-wise, so I would try not to put any more religions in that era. I also think you have a point about where Hinduism is, but I don't see a good technology in the Classical Era to key Hinduism to, other than possibly Aristocracy, and that's a stretch.

I think the placement of Monotheism and Judaism doesn't reflect the religion's origins so much as when Judaism became really established; the founding of the Kingdom of Israel (circa 1000 BCE, close to the transition from Ancient Era to Classical Era), so I'd like to stick with that. We would still be moving it a level earlier in the tech tree if we pull out Writing. I think it's similar to how we have Christianity not showing up until the early Medieval Era. By strict reading, it should appear in the mid-to-late Classical.

I believe both Prophets and Divine Cult need to be shuffled around. Prophets is currently at Mysticism and Divine Cult at Ceremonial Burial. Where do you think they should go? I can handle Prophets at Priesthood and then maybe Divine Cult at Sacrifice. If we do this, we should probably give Mysticism something else, as it would be reduced to just Stonehenge + Hemp/Tobacco.

Do you think this would work for a first run?

 

[c0dy]

About my bug above, I turned on "Show enemy moves" and "Show friendly moves" to see where the hang up was and the whole turn processed... only odd thing I saw was Zulu putting like 15-20 ships in their capital even though I have a limit to 5 units/tile on.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Can we do this in stages? I'm thinking of doing this first:

• Change Monotheism to require Masonry + Priesthood + Sacrifice. That pulls Writing out of Monotheism. It also gives you 5 religions that you can get to without Writing (Kemetism, Judaism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Hellenism).
• Change Code of Laws to require Alphabet + Monarchy. That puts a little more distance between the Ancient Era and Confucianism.

I don't think Tengrii is a good religion to add. I don't see that as having enough of an impact on its own to warrant being added. I probably wouldn't do more than 2-3 more religions. Shinto would be nice, but I'd like to see it in the Medieval Era, as that's when Shinto seems to become more formalized and distinct. The Classical Era is pretty crowded religion-wise, so I would try not to put any more religions in that era. I also think you have a point about where Hinduism is, but I don't see a good technology in the Classical Era to key Hinduism to, other than possibly Aristocracy, and that's a stretch.

I think the placement of Monotheism and Judaism doesn't reflect the religion's origins so much as when Judaism became really established; the founding of the Kingdom of Israel (circa 1000 BCE, close to the transition from Ancient Era to Classical Era), so I'd like to stick with that. We would still be moving it a level earlier in the tech tree if we pull out Writing. I think it's similar to how we have Christianity not showing up until the early Medieval Era. By strict reading, it should appear in the mid-to-late Classical.

I believe both Prophets and Divine Cult need to be shuffled around. Prophets is currently at Mysticism and Divine Cult at Ceremonial Burial. Where do you think they should go? I can handle Prophets at Priesthood and then maybe Divine Cult at Sacrifice. If we do this, we should probably give Mysticism something else, as it would be reduced to just Stonehenge + Hemp/Tobacco.

Do you think this would work for a first run?

Yes, I think this is a good place to start. And I actually agree about Christianity and add in Islam to that mix too, they both could come a bit later than they do now.

I also think Kemet and Zorast need to move back a column for their respective entrance into the game.

I'm not adverse to doing this in stages.

As for Tengrii, Genghis Khan and his horde would disagree, and so do I. And glad you think Shinto would work. Tokugawa thinks so too.

I won't be posting more about what I'd like to see today because I have to go out of town for the day. But these suggestions work towards my goal of creating diverging paths to found religions and not have them fall like dominoes as they do now.

JosEPh