A New Dawn Bug Reports and Feedback

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

And I actually agree about Christianity and add in Islam to that mix too, they both could come a bit later than they do now.

I strongly disagree on this one, to tell the truth; Christianity already appears after more than 1/3 of the game is gone; and Islam sometimes is founded almost at 40% of the game in terms of turns. In my latest game Christianity was founded in 1094 AD and Islam in 1286 AD which is way too late in my view. I think they are placed more or less correctly right now. I was wondering about moving them earlier in the game but I can live with the way they're working now. With the new tech tree I've never ever seen Christianity founded before 400 AD (on Blitz gamespeed, which I use as a test speed) and Islam before 700AD. I think this could be considered good enough.

As for the rest of the discussion about religions, I totally agree with Vokarya at the moment.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I strongly disagree on this one, to tell the truth; Christianity already appears after more than 1/3 of the game is gone; and Islam sometimes is founded almost at 40% of the game in terms of turns. In my latest game Christianity was founded in 1094 AD and Islam in 1286 AD which is way too late in my view. I think they are placed more or less correctly right now. I was wondering about moving them earlier in the game but I can live with the way they're working now. With the new tech tree I've never ever seen Christianity founded before 400 AD (on Blitz gamespeed, which I use as a test speed) and Islam before 700AD. I think this could be considered good enough.

As for the rest of the discussion about religions, I totally agree with Vokarya at the moment.

And I have to disagree with your assessment.

The problem isn't so much their respective placement but the research rate and pinning dates on them. Which will never pan out as Afforess stated time and time again. You do remember he pulled Dates completely from the Mod at one time. He only put them back in to appease those that clamored over their absence.

Too many factors in the game and Mod to say Christianity (for Example) Must come about at 33 AD. All that does is make balancing a never ending chore.

JosEPh

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Too many factors in the game and Mod to say Christianity (for Example) Must come about at 33 AD. All that does is make balancing a never ending chore.

JosEPh

To tell the truth, balance was working pretty well in this sense when I've made my changes to AND 2.0 before jtanner took over the project. It took me a long time but in the end Christianity was being founded between 100BC and 450AD, which is quite good to me. No matter which settings you were using.
And no, problem isn't about pinning techs and religions to their right date, which is something I would do only very approximately as I said; but I think that founding a religion when 40% of the game has passed is totally useless. Islam is often useless, in this sense.

 

[Arakhor]

And that is precisely why I think late-game (modern) religions are a pointless idea.

 

[BlindKitty]

Well, I think there is a way to make late-game religions useful, but it would be even harder to balance, I'm afraid; that is, late game religions would have to offer better bonuses. This way changing religion, even pretty late, would make sense - and actually, I feel that it would be better than watching Egypt, for example, stick to Kemetism well into Future era...

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Well, I think there is a way to make late-game religions useful, but it would be even harder to balance, I'm afraid; that is, late game religions would have to offer better bonuses. This way changing religion, even pretty late, would make sense - and actually, I feel that it would be better than watching Egypt, for example, stick to Kemetism well into Future era...

That's something that's been already discussed a long time ago and the idea was rejected. At least it wouldn't work for people using "Choose religion" option.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

That's good. It's probably the most elegant solution possible; nothing else needs to be changed at all.

More on the matchlock-flintlock-etc issue.
AI is now skipping flintlock until late; I've seen AI having Cannons (Nationalism), while still having heavy swordsmen and arquebusiers. I guess musketmen (flintlock) should come a bit earlier or cannons (nationalism) should come a bit later; I suppose flintlock should be somehow a mandatory prereq for Nationalism or one of its prereq techs, while at the moment it's an OR prereq (with rifling). What do you think?

 

[BlindKitty]

Well, with Choose Religion option it would be a really bad idea, that's true. Also, I didn't know it was discussed already - sorry.

Also, I think that making flintlock prerequisite for Nationalism would make a lot of sense, especially seeing as Naval Cannon - Matchlock switch seemingly resolved that issue.

And I have had an idea - is there a way to send replays? Well, I guess I could make a save on last turn or something... My computer is often on for prolonged periods of time when I'm not really using it very much, and so I thought that if you need more test games, I could throw the comp on autoplay on any given set of rules and send you the results. Would that be of any help?

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Also, I think that making flintlock prerequisite for Nationalism would make a lot of sense, especially seeing as Naval Cannon - Matchlock switch seemingly resolved that issue.

I'm not sure if it can be a prereq or if it's better to change something else; I'll let Vokarya answer on this one.

And I have had an idea - is there a way to send replays? Well, I guess I could make a save on last turn or something... My computer is often on for prolonged periods of time when I'm not really using it very much, and so I thought that if you need more test games, I could throw the comp on autoplay on any given set of rules and send you the results. Would that be of any help?

I was thinking of something of that kind for testing but I need to think about it a bit more. My original idea was to ask some players to let the AI autoplay some whole games and post some saves (let's say every 100 turns, for example), to check everything is working. More or less this is what I do for testing purposes.
But this will have to wait a bit as we polish a little more the latest revision; maybe we'll also have to add Vokarya's new changes but I don't know how long it will take for this. At least I'd like to add the "No nukes" option before starting the test session.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Are you going to give different temples different effects?

 

[c0dy]

What about an option that would allow a certain number of units on city tiles, keeping it separate from normal tiles? I like to play with about 5 units/tile but it seems a bit easy to take cities since they don't have their own strength like in Civ V.

Along those lines, I noticed if you receive units from another civ, the game allows stacking beyond the unit/tile limit. And some civs seem to be able to break that rule, at least on their cities.

And +1 about the flintlock/cannon issue. I saw cannons long before musketmen with opponents, even though I went the way of getting flintlock first.

 

[SnoopDogg23]

Can we do this in stages? I'm thinking of doing this first:

• Change Monotheism to require Masonry + Priesthood + Sacrifice. That pulls Writing out of Monotheism. It also gives you 5 religions that you can get to without Writing (Kemetism, Judaism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Hellenism).
• Change Code of Laws to require Alphabet + Monarchy. That puts a little more distance between the Ancient Era and Confucianism.

I don't think Tengrii is a good religion to add. I don't see that as having enough of an impact on its own to warrant being added. I probably wouldn't do more than 2-3 more religions. Shinto would be nice, but I'd like to see it in the Medieval Era, as that's when Shinto seems to become more formalized and distinct. The Classical Era is pretty crowded religion-wise, so I would try not to put any more religions in that era. I also think you have a point about where Hinduism is, but I don't see a good technology in the Classical Era to key Hinduism to, other than possibly Aristocracy, and that's a stretch.

I think the placement of Monotheism and Judaism doesn't reflect the religion's origins so much as when Judaism became really established; the founding of the Kingdom of Israel (circa 1000 BCE, close to the transition from Ancient Era to Classical Era), so I'd like to stick with that. We would still be moving it a level earlier in the tech tree if we pull out Writing. I think it's similar to how we have Christianity not showing up until the early Medieval Era. By strict reading, it should appear in the mid-to-late Classical.

I believe both Prophets and Divine Cult need to be shuffled around. Prophets is currently at Mysticism and Divine Cult at Ceremonial Burial. Where do you think they should go? I can handle Prophets at Priesthood and then maybe Divine Cult at Sacrifice. If we do this, we should probably give Mysticism something else, as it would be reduced to just Stonehenge + Hemp/Tobacco.

Do you think this would work for a first run?

Vokayra et al.

Do you mean having Monotheism require Masonry + Priesthood + Ceremonial Burial instead of Sacrifice Cult? I think that makes more historical sense. I agree with your other thoughts, including keeping Divine Cult at Sacrifice Cult. Frankly, I don't see the value in Sacrifice Cult as a technology in general, unless we put Chichen Itza there along with Divine Cult. (Chichen Itza isn't currently at Sacrifice, right?) If we moved Chichen Itza to Sacrifice, it would make sense to have Sacrifice require Masonry (again, I assume it doesn't currently require it--it would be helpful to have a flow chart of this new tech tree, as suggested earlier in the thread!).

As for giving something else to Mysticism, why not move the Fire Pit in? That makes intuitive sense (assuming it's not already there). Also, I wonder if it's absolutely necessary to add anything to Mysticism after taking away Prophets, as it is a starting tech for certain civs.

Looking forward to your thoughts, the flowchart (if possible), and figuring this all out.

Snoop

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Are you going to give different temples different effects?

I don't have any plan about it, but I don't know what Vokarya thinks about it.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

About the unit-per-tile limit: if I'm not mistaken, the limit is for land units only. Units aboard ships, ships themselves and air units don't count toward the limit. I usually play with a 15 units per tile limit and it works good enough.

 

[JosEPh_II]

On religions this is a Must, Poly must be pulled as a Prereq for Mono. And Poly's tech tree position (column) may need changed as well. And Buddhism must not have either Poly or Mono or the same set of Prereqs as either of the two.

The tech tree pathing must not and should not create funnels for founding religions like we currently have for these 3 bang bang religion techs. That is my whole point, which I hope is understood.

@Tolni,
I don't think we need temples to give different effects as the religions themselves do this. (Although some seem to get more favors and better conditions than others) But that is another story for another time and thread.

JosEPh

 

[Vokarya]

More on the matchlock-flintlock-etc issue.
AI is now skipping flintlock until late; I've seen AI having Cannons (Nationalism), while still having heavy swordsmen and arquebusiers. I guess musketmen (flintlock) should come a bit earlier or cannons (nationalism) should come a bit later; I suppose flintlock should be somehow a mandatory prereq for Nationalism or one of its prereq techs, while at the moment it's an OR prereq (with rifling). What do you think?

I've always thought that Cannons should be moved from Nationalism to Explosives. That makes more sense to me. That would force getting Flintlock and Explosives before unleashing those units. Do you want to try that out?

 

[Vokarya]

Vokayra et al.

Do you mean having Monotheism require Masonry + Priesthood + Ceremonial Burial instead of Sacrifice Cult? I think that makes more historical sense. I agree with your other thoughts, including keeping Divine Cult at Sacrifice Cult. Frankly, I don't see the value in Sacrifice Cult as a technology in general, unless we put Chichen Itza there along with Divine Cult. (Chichen Itza isn't currently at Sacrifice, right?) If we moved Chichen Itza to Sacrifice, it would make sense to have Sacrifice require Masonry (again, I assume it doesn't currently require it--it would be helpful to have a flow chart of this new tech tree, as suggested earlier in the thread!).

Actually, I like having Sacrifice as a prerequisite for Monotheism. Otherwise, Sacrifice is totally skippable until you reach the Medieval Era and need it for Holy War (and you can skip HW until you need Divine Right in the Renaissance). Chichen Itza is already at Sacrifice (and also requires Masonry, so it doesn't need to be a tech prereq).

 

[Vokarya]

On religions this is a Must, Poly must be pulled as a Prereq for Mono. And Poly's tech tree position (column) may need changed as well. And Buddhism must not have either Poly or Mono or the same set of Prereqs as either of the two.

The tech tree pathing must not and should not create funnels for founding religions like we currently have for these 3 bang bang religion techs. That is my whole point, which I hope is understood.

After we make the changes to Monotheism, you won't have Polytheism and Monotheism together. But currently Meditation (Buddhism) is Monotheism's only mandatory outbound link, and at least one of Dualism/Polytheism/Monotheism is a required tech for Scriptures, which is also required for Meditation, and Meditation is also Scriptures' only mandatory outbound, so I don't want to cut those links because it will lead to skippable techs.

When I was testing religion founding, Judaism stood alone a lot. It wasn't always going to an AI tech leader. So I don't think that Judaism is as bad as it looks. Part of it is that Scriptures is a pretty expensive tech between Monotheism and Meditation, so that gives a gap between religion-founding techs.

 

[Vokarya]

I don't have any plan about it, but I don't know what Vokarya thinks about it.

I don't see a driving need to do that. You'd have to balance all of them against each other and factor in Choose Religions as well.

 

[Vokarya]

I was doing some autoplaying to test out some of the tech tree changes we are discussing and I am getting a repeating CTD. If I press Enter at the end of the turn, the game crashes. Sometimes, but not every time, I get a Runtime Error message.

I am using a slightly modified Civ4TechInfos.xml file that is included in the zip archive.