A Victory for Edward Snowden?

[MobBoss]

The traitors are the ones who violated your rights. What he was, was the actual opposite of treason.

No. That's not what a traitor is at all. This guy released information that put my fellow soldiers more at risk. Perhaps even cost lives, although that is admittedly hard to prove. But it did make terrorists more aware of what we were doing to track and apprehend them, thus allowing them to attempt to counter it.

Because of that, even if a fraction of what he did was for the greater good, he will remain a traitor in my eyes. I'm convinced he could have accomplished what he did from within the system, as opposed to taking the path he did.

Yes, timing can be important. Would it make a difference to you if the "Edward Snowden" of the story was revealing Enigma encryption secrets or Nazi plans to gas the Jews? Would he still be a traitor in your eyes? Can Snowden be an American traitor and hero to others? Can he also be an American hero?

Must he be one or the other?

Would Vidkun Quisling be labeled a traitor if Nazi Germany had won the war?

If, in the future, we are defeated by radical Islam, or whomever/whatever, those that do so are free to label him in any fashion they choose. But as for me, he is indeed a traitor.

 

[JollyRoger]

That's not what a traitor is at all. This guy released information that put my fellow soldiers more at risk.

 

[Zelig]

This guy released information that put my fellow soldiers more at risk.

Should probably go after freedom of press and shut down The Guardian.

 

[MobBoss]

Should probably go after freedom of press and shut down The Guardian.

I don't have a problem with freedom of the press. I have a problem with someone trusted with sensitive information that could mean the lives of troops, and then it being stolen and offered to everyone - our enemies included.

 

[Zelig]

I don't have a problem with freedom of the press. I have a problem with someone trusted with sensitive information that could mean the lives of troops, and then it being stolen and offered to everyone - our enemies included.

Snowden has a better record in keeping the information from being stolen than the NSA.

 

[nc-1701]

I think that's actually sad to be honest. IMHO the guy is still a traitor.

I don't care to argue the point, though it certainly seems some are willing to take that flag, but I do think reactions Snowden and similar actions do show a very interesting generational divide. I'm not entirely sure why, but my generation seems to be much more supportive of SNowden/WikiLeaks or even the Silk Road guy than older ones. Even after accounting for political differences.

 

[Gary Childress]

I don't care to argue the point, though it certainly seems some are willing to take that flag, but I do think reactions Snowden and similar actions do show a very interesting generational divide. I'm not entirely sure why, but my generation seems to be much more supportive of SNowden/WikiLeaks or even the Silk Road guy than older ones. Even after accounting for political differences.

This is a really good observation. It's really like there are two worlds out there and both have at least some validity in their contrasting views. It's hard for me to say what the final verdict is on such things. As an American I'm sort of split on the issue of whether Snowden is a "traitor", "whistleblower" or what?

In a sense perhaps only history will give us a clear and final verdict. Then afterward everyone can sit back and say, "I told you so".

 

[Zelig]

I don't really get why there's any controversy over whether he's a traitor. Even if you think he's a justified hero, he's a traitor by definition, at the very least for "to reveal or disclose in violation of confidence".

 

[MobBoss]

This is a really good observation. It's really like there are two worlds out there and both have at least some validity in their contrasting views. It's hard for me to say what the final verdict is on such things. As an American I'm sort of split on the issue of whether Snowden is a "traitor", "whistleblower" or what?

In a sense perhaps only history will give us a clear and final verdict. Then afterward everyone can sit back and say, "I told you so".

He's not really a whistleblower. Whistleblowers get legal and lawful protections for bringing forward such issues. Had Snowden actually worked from within the whistlelbower system he would have been afforded those protections. Instead he chose to put himself in the spotlight and do what he did.

I don't really get why there's any controversy over whether he's a traitor. Even if you think he's a justified hero, he's a traitor by definition, at the very least for "to reveal or disclose in violation of confidence".

Precisely.

 

[Perfection]

Had Snowden not done this, I wouldn't know things that I feel I have the goddamn right to know.

The government should act with transparent processes and procedures in order to be accountable to the American people.

 

[PhroX]

If a government doesn't want its people to know what it's doing, it probably shouldn't be doing those things....

 

[Kozmos]

No. That's not what a traitor is at all. This guy released information that put my fellow soldiers more at risk. Perhaps even cost lives, although that is admittedly hard to prove. But it did make terrorists more aware of what we were doing to track and apprehend them, thus allowing them to attempt to counter it.

Because of that, even if a fraction of what he did was for the greater good, he will remain a traitor in my eyes. I'm convinced he could have accomplished what he did from within the system, as opposed to taking the path he did.

There are individuals who tried to go through the system. (can't recall their names, they are usually put as footnotes nowadays) They were ignored.

I'm pretty sure terrorists were aware of what NSA is doing. Dumb terrorists were weeded out anyway via natural selection drone strikes. Things like Five Eyes were not secret believe it or not. Furthermore the sheer bulk of data they were collecting actually hindered effective operations.

 

[Gary Childress]

I don't really get why there's any controversy over whether he's a traitor. Even if you think he's a justified hero, he's a traitor by definition, at the very least for "to reveal or disclose in violation of confidence".

"Traitor" seems like such a pejorative term though. Was Oskar Schindler a "traitor" because he went against the Nazi cause of exterminating the Jews? If we go with a simplistic definition of "traitor", which you seem to be advocating, then I would assume he was. Not saying Snowden is on the level of Schindler but obviously "traitor" can be a relative term, sort of like "freedom fighter" in some cases. The difficulty is in sorting out what the truth is.

 

[Zelig]

"Traitor" seems like such a pejorative term though.

I've never really seen it that way.

Was Oskar Schindler a "traitor" because he went against the Nazi cause of exterminating the Jews?

Yup.

 

[warpus]

I'm convinced he could have accomplished what he did from within the system, as opposed to taking the path he did.

How, though? And how come nobody ever does so via official channels? I reckon because it's rather impossible.

 

[Gary Childress]

I've never really seen it that way.



Yup.

So are you a "traitor" because (I assume) you don't support ISIS?

 

[Gary Childress]

How, though? And how come nobody ever does so via official channels? I reckon because it's rather impossible.

...And my understanding is that Snowden reported it to the Press, which is not quite like reporting it to the KGB I would assume. If he reported it to the KGB or something similar then I would call him a sure fire "traitor".

 

[PhroX]

"Traitor" seems like such a pejorative term though. Was Oskar Schindler a "traitor" because he went against the Nazi cause of exterminating the Jews? If we go with a simplistic definition of "traitor", which you seem to be advocating, then I would assume he was. Not saying Snowden is on the level of Schindler but obviously "traitor" can be a relative term, sort of like "freedom fighter" in some cases. The difficulty is in sorting out what the truth is.

I would say both Schindler and Snowden are traitors. However, I don't consider being a traitor to neccesarily be a bad thing. If that which you are betraying isn't worthy of your loyalty, then being called a traitor should be taken as a complement.

 

[Samson]

So are you a "traitor" because (I assume) you don't support ISIS?

Surely you need some sort of connection to the entity you are opposing for it to be treason? Or else everyone in the 1st or 2nd world was a traitor in the cold war, because there was always one side whom they were against.

 

[Gary Childress]

I would say both Schindler and Snowden are traitors. However, I don't consider being a traitor to neccesarily be a bad thing. If that which you are betraying isn't worthy of your loyalty, then being called a traitor should be taken as a complement.

I've never heard anyone call someone a "traitor" as a compliment.