[RD] Abortion, once again

To the extent this betrayal of the confidences of the Court was intended to undermine the integrity of our operations, it will not succeed. The work of the Court will not be affected in any way. We at the Court are blessed to have a workforce – permanent employees and law clerks alike – intensely loyal to the institution and dedicated to the rule of law. Court employees have an exemplary and important tradition of respecting the confidentiality of the judicial process and upholding the trust of the Court. This was a singular and egregious breach of that trust that is an affront to the Court and the community of public servants who work here.

Here you have it folks: a cabal of 9 *******s (okay, 8 *******s and KBJ - I'm never forgiving Kagan and Sotomayor for their votes in the Nestle child slave case) working in secret. That's democracy & freedom.

@Lexicus - I replied to your post 2 minutes before it was made apparently - must be the new 5G connection :lol:

I guess I accidentally hit "reply" there, not sure how exactly.
 
The notion that there has been and continue to be discussions about when to grant civil rights and declare personhood is false. Civil rights go to a living, breathing human being who has been born. Period.

??? you seem to be unilaterally declaring your stance on when personhood happens to be the correct one. while the majority of the country agrees with allowing abortions in at least some capacity, the same is not true for claiming there is no such thing as personhood prior to birth.

What this represents is a step in reducing the rights of half of America by having the government inserting itself into a woman's right to control her own body. What did the anti vaccine people say, "my body, my choice"? Apparently, conservatives think that only applies to men.

very convenient, to first define something as not-a-person with no rights, and then pretend that such unilateral statement isn't absolutely mandatory for entire quoted line of reasoning to function. the moment one considers the fetus to be a person, it stops being a functional argument.

i get that you want to pretend that there isn't room for discussion on this, but it is the central issue. the point of debate that matters to policy. there are a lot of things children at varying ages can/can't do legally at various points in time, including some you list. that does not mean they aren't people.

but actually no, the discussion of personhood is not settled, period. it's the central question around policy that legislation is going to have to address again, and if they want to keep their seats they had best represent as many of their voters as possible. which probably means using a definition different than yours.

This could undo a great deal of what has been accomplished in the area of civil rights.

doubtful, it would require specifically taking away civil rights via passing law. unless you believe a "great deal" of civil rights don't have broad support in the us right now?

As for your other point... Congress could theoretically make a federal law legalizing and standardizing the regulations on abortion nationwide

i think this would only work if scotus allowed it to work. it's not a power the constitution defines as within federal purview, though as you said that only matters insofar as scotus thinks it matters.

But going back to my above point, my characteristically cynical view, is that the SCOTUS Justices generally first decide what result they think is "right", "desirable", "practical", "workable", etc., then they work backwards to craft a legal framework to justify the desired result.

this unfortunately is quite common, both for scotus and in general. certainly makes legitimacy take a hit.

I've been thinking about the Right to Privacy, which is perhaps the one, great unenumerated right upon which many other things rest, such as the right to marry. iirc, the whole right to privacy is founded on the 3rd and 9th amendments, neither of which mentions a right to privacy (nor of course any of the subsequent rights that are founded on the right to privacy).

this seems to be a bit of a reach, especially wrt 3rd amendment. there are many reasons other than privacy that forcibly quartering people in houses is undesirable. that also implies imposition on property rights, and given that you're quartering military and the context in which the revolutionary war was fought, likely implies non-zero direct danger/threat of harm that would otherwise not exist to the non-soldiers in the house.

i'm also not convinced "right to marry" has anything to do with "privacy". marriage is a legal contract first and foremost. absent that contract and (for some/many) religious connotations, marriage would be nothing but another word for "significant other". imo a binding legal contract is kind of the opposite of a private endeavor, there are pieces of information that must be included for it to function that would not be needed w/o it.

This challenge and ruling seemed inevitable, given the sheer success of the Republicans plus Trump in the last cycle. I just hope that people have prepared on-the-ground resources to enact the Plan B ...

legislation can be/should be plan a all along.
 
We won the ACA in 2010. Which is still huge enough to defend even if Obama hasn't done anything for us in the last minute enough to not throw him rhetorically under the bus. Because Blue Dogs that are extinct. And the Kinzingers that democrats are finishing off this year too.

Right, watered-down legislation for which the Dems got no political credit whatsoever regardless of its actual merit.
 
The “ideological purity” in question here is for things like whether or not I am to be afforded basic human rights. If the cost of getting a democratic majority that won’t gut the ACA is that I am to be put to the sword, why would I ever support that? Seems to be a point frequently missed on abortion as well: if your “majority” consists of 40 pro-choice Democratic senators and 20 pro-life ones then that can’t meaningfully be called a majority if abortion access is your primary political concern. Why should any one with those political interests ever join on to that coalition?
 
this seems to be a bit of a reach, especially wrt 3rd amendment. there are many reasons other than privacy that forcibly quartering people in houses is undesirable. that also implies imposition on property rights, and given that you're quartering military and the context in which the revolutionary war was fought, likely implies non-zero direct danger/threat of harm that would otherwise not exist to the non-soldiers in the house.
The 3rd Amendment is not founded on a right to privacy. The right to privacy is inferred from the 3rd Amendment. But you're right, it's a bit thin. There simply is no right to privacy explicit in the Constitution. Without the 9th Amendment, in a world where our rights are determined solely by the Constitution, we wouldn't have a right to privacy at all. But the reason we have the 9th Amendment is because we don't want our rights determined solely by the Constitution.

i'm also not convinced "right to marry" has anything to do with "privacy". marriage is a legal contract first and foremost. absent that contract and (for some/many) religious connotations, marriage would be nothing but another word for "significant other". imo a binding legal contract is kind of the opposite of a private endeavor, there are pieces of information that must be included for it to function that would not be needed w/o it.
Cornell Law School cites Nolo's Plain English Law Dictionary:
1) The right not to have one's personal matters disclosed or publicized; the right to be left alone.
2) The right against undue government intrusion into fundamental personal issues and decisions.
When we talk about privacy in an everyday sense, we usually mean #1. But when we're talking about the Right to Privacy in a legal sense, we're using the second definition.
 
Right, watered-down legislation for which the Dems got no political credit whatsoever regardless of its actual merit.

Some people certainly still campaign against it. So why not give the ACA some credit without making the old McCain sometimes-Republican do it for you. ;)
 
Without the 9th Amendment, in a world where our rights are determined solely by the Constitution, we wouldn't have a right to privacy at all. But the reason we have the 9th Amendment is because we don't want our rights determined solely by the Constitution.

yes, the 9th is a lot better for arguing privacy than the 3rd. real question then becomes to what extent people have a right to privacy, and which actions invalidate a given amount of privacy.

it's actually not trivial to define a "right to privacy", legally. consider a scenario where someone reveals their address publicly on the internet. to what extent do they then have the right to demand others destroy that information? if that extent is "none", then their address/location is de facto no longer part of their privacy. once you involve the degree to which people use phones/make purchases/move around publicly, the line for privacy blurs quickly.

as an aside, it was always a bit of a farce to slot in abortion under "privacy rights". if you assume the fetus is not a person, it's the same as any other procedure. if you assume the fetus is a person, then normally one's right to keep living would supercede a desire for privacy. thus personhood is the question, and answering it with privacy was a cop-out by scotus of its time.

When we talk about privacy in an everyday sense, we usually mean #1. But when we're talking about the Right to Privacy in a legal sense, we're using the second definition.

perhaps, but i don't think two people specifically requesting the government to create/enforce a contract between them is a scenario where one can reasonably claim the government is "intruding". no such request for a contract can possibly imply less "intrusion" than...not requesting a government-enforced contract in the first place.

the government discriminating/not doing the contract based on gender/race/etc is against the law, but i don't think law or arguments along the lines of "privacy" should be the driving factor/consideration there...as opposed to say the 14th for example.
 
The “ideological purity” in question here is for things like whether or not I am to be afforded basic human rights. If the cost of getting a democratic majority that won’t gut the ACA is that I am to be put to the sword, why would I ever support that? Seems to be a point frequently missed on abortion as well: if your “majority” consists of 40 pro-choice Democratic senators and 20 pro-life ones then that can’t meaningfully be called a majority if abortion access is your primary political concern. Why should any one with those political interests ever join on to that coalition?
I know that this is somewhat off topic, but this statement captures a big part of why I think that Democrats should abandon gun-control entirely as a platform. The number of voters who are virtually single-issue, 2nd Amendment advocates, that would be inclined, or who could be swayed to support Democrats, but for the 2nd Amendment disputes, far outweigh... in my completely speculative, anecdotal estimation... the folks who are single-issue gun-control advocates, who would not just support Democrats anyway, based on other issues.

Along a similar/related vein... I would speculate that the voters Democrats lose, in single-issue voters, by failing to take a hardline pro-choice stance, far exceeds the moderate votes they would gain for say, voting rights reform, pathway to citizenship, student loan forgiveness, LGBTQ rights, abolition of the filibuster, etc. In other words, the Democrats are probably better off just taking a clear stance siding with pro-choice advocates, at the risk of alienating a miniscule number of "moderate" Democrats.
 
The way I see it, the federal government won't be able to make any federal abortion law.

The USA will therefore be divided into states where abortion is legal and states where abortion is illegal.

This will result in women travelling from states where abortion is illegal to states where abortion is legal to get abortions.
 
Disagreement isn't always a fight. Sometimes it's if the dress looks blue or gold. I think. But yeah, it's both. And it's definitely right to be cynical about the court. But it's still right too to expect more from Thomas than Pelosi, even if we can't or don't.
I can admit a decades long crack in my standard cynicism when it comes to Thomas... I've always held a very faint, glimmer of hope that he would one day pull a McCain and/or otherwise "I fooled you! I got pig iron! All pig iron!" ... someday, at least... Scalia's death came and went... and the glimmer went dimmer... now this news about his wife and, well... eh...

I still don't see him retiring... ever.
 
I know that this is somewhat off topic, but this statement captures a big part of why I think that Democrats should abandon gun-control entirely as a platform. The number of voters who are virtually single-issue, 2nd Amendment advocates, that would be inclined, or who could be swayed to support Democrats, but for the 2nd Amendment disputes, far outweigh... in my completely speculative, anecdotal estimation... the folks who are single-issue gun-control advocates, who would not just support Democrats anyway, based on other issues.

definitely seems true to me. pushing against the 2nd does seem to shove people to the republican party. not sure to what extent, but this as a policy issue would otherwise be separated from theory on how to run an economy or social issues. if both parties support 2nd equally it's not clear to me that gun rights advocates would still consistently stay red as a whole.

Along a similar/related vein... I would speculate that the voters Democrats lose, in single-issue voters, by failing to take a hardline pro-choice stance, far exceeds the moderate votes they would gain for say, voting rights reform, pathway to citizenship, student loan forgiveness, LGBTQ rights, abolition of the filibuster, etc. In other words, the Democrats are probably better off just taking a clear stance siding with pro-choice advocates, at the risk of alienating a miniscule number of "moderate" Democrats.

i'm less convinced by this one. if a single-issue voter is pro-choice, in contrast to the above it's not like they're going to defect to the less pro-choice (to put it mildly in many cases) republican party, so it's more a tradeoff in terms of whether they bother to vote at all. as long as they feel their outcome will be better than the republican option by enough to bother voting, the democrats get that vote w/o going more "hardline". i presume the cost in votes to be significantly less as a result.

This will result in women travelling from states where abortion is illegal to states where abortion is legal to get abortions.

this seems to be the logical conclusion, and i don't think states where it is illegal can do anything about it, as trying to would imply federal involvement.
 
Yeah. Thomas is not retiring.
 
The way I see it, the federal government won't be able to make any federal abortion law. The USA will therefore be divided into states where abortion is legal and states where abortion is illegal.

This will result in women with sufficient means/resources travelling from states where abortion is illegal to states where abortion is legal to get abortions, while poor women will be left to choose between risking injury/death in illegal clandestine abortions or having unwanted children, then choosing between abandoning those unwanted children, or enduring relatively great hardship to raise them.
FTFY
 

I see that you are messing about with the wording of my posts.

If you want to do that, please delete my name from the revised text.


Regarding the particular point you made, that occurred to me. I understand that was true
prior to RVW, but i think that things have changed both culturally and regarding mobility.

I rather think that the pro abortion people in states where abortion
is illegal will simply drive the poor women out of state.

Attempts to make that illegal will likely be bounced by SCOTUS.
 
one of the nice things about states is that if you strongly disagree with a set of laws in one state, you can go to a different one. you can even do this before the topic of abortion is relevant.
 
I can, technically, emigrate.

It is however, something I can't realistically do at the moment (or anytime soon), and not just for financial reasons. But financial reasons are still important.

Betting people's bodily autonomy on "they can just move" has historically been a poor argument, and remains so here.

Attempts to make that illegal will likely be bounced by SCOTUS.
The same SCOTUS proposing a repeal to Roe vs. Wade? I don't see this as likely :)
 
Back
Top Bottom