[RD] Abortion, once again

this seems to be the logical conclusion, and i don't think states where it is illegal can do anything about it, as trying to would imply federal involvement.

Regarding the particular point you made, that occurred to me. I understand that was true
prior to RVW, but i think that things have changed both culturally and regarding mobility.

I rather think that the pro abortion people in states where abortion
is illegal will simply drive the poor women out of state.

Attempts to make that illegal will likely be bounced by SCOTUS.

I want to hear from him why he thinks this is an acceptable remedy when the same excuse was used to justify the worst bigotry

There would likely be battles against those seeking abortions relocating on various dubious fringe grounds.


Delaying by demanding written permissions from all parents and guardians for an under age or mentally incapacitated individual

Imprisonment under spurious charges with denial of bail etc

But I doubt that this SCOTUS will go along with laws overturning Freedom of Movement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement_under_United_States_law

Law would punish helping Missourians get out-of-state abortions | STLPR (stlpublicradio.org)

Idk WTH you people are reading but if you think for a fudging moment they won't move to A) band movement across state lines to get abortions and B) move to enact a national ban the moment they get the potential power to enact it; then you are not paying any fudging attention at all. I would chop these positions up to ignorance but let's be fudging honest about it (this is going to get bounced but it needs fudging said here over and over again), you guys are bigots, your ideas are bigoted by nature, your positions are misogynistic by nature, and your premises of logic are always flawed because they fail to recognize basic facts because those facts lie outside your lived experiences.
 
Neither you nor I live in a region where "move to the laws you like" is anywhere near as possible as it is in the States. Now, obviously, the entire discussion agrees that 'resources are essential and thus this freedom is functionally regressive', but it's still true. If someone doesn't like where they live, they can move (with effort). And if that person can bring something of value with their immigration, then the receiving region should want them.
The laws I like are irrelevant. I was talking about the actual movement itself. I'm a fully-remote software developer in an age when a) recruiting is way up and b) remote is increasingly offered without question, upfront. I'm no longer in a position where I was earlier in my adulthood when it was completely pie-in-the-sky impossible, financially (though, uh, owning a house still seems to be on that list). And yet, moving still comes with significant barriers (of which finance is still one. It's simply not impossible anymore).

If the aim of your argument is merely to say "people can still move with effort", then that's not an argument I denied (though for a number of people it is literally impossible, regardless of effort, because money is a fixed resource and there are times no amount of postulating on a web forum can change that). So I'm kind of wondering the point, exactly, of your observations here.

I appreciate you want to keep the concept available generally, but contextually I don't see it as appropriate, for reasons already stated. This isn't the "government spending and taxation thread". It's the "abortion thread".
 
If the aim of your argument is merely to say "people can still move with effort", then that's not an argument I denied (though for a number of people it is literally impossible, regardless of effort, because money is a fixed resource and there are times no amount of postulating on a web forum can change that). So I'm kind of wondering the point, exactly, of your observations here.
My observation is that "you're free to move" will mean something different in the States than where we live. The amount of variance they can purchase per unit effort is quite a bit higher. Everyone recognizes that it's still hard. Whether you can (and whether you're wanted in the new region) will be variables.
I appreciate you want to keep the concept available generally, but contextually I don't see it as appropriate, for reasons already stated. This isn't the "government spending and taxation thread". It's the "abortion thread".
I'm not a lawyer nor am a I privy to the American pro-life movement, but my suspicion is that this will become a 'state-level' issue there, which means that migration will be a giant factor. But it also changes the nature of the fight, I think, where Americans will need to empower allies in at-risk regions far away from themselves. Technically, there are much larger regions in the world that need much more of my effort when it comes to women's rights, but (unfortunately) because the US exports there memes here, I view them as part of my defensive line.

But yes, I'm also keeping the knife sharp for use elsewhere.
 
My observation is that "you're free to move" will mean something different in the States than where we live. The amount of variance they can purchase per unit effort is quite a bit higher. Everyone recognizes that it's still hard. Whether you can (and whether you're wanted in the new region) will be variables.
It may mean something different state-to-state, nevermind country to country. The problem with that is purely semantics, on a web forum that people from all over discuss on. Generally speaking, it is deployed as either advice that is clueless of the actual barriers in place, or advice that is aware of them, and doesn't care about them enough.

But I guess we're back to human behaviour again, which is the meta thing I try to avoid :D My point is that the core of the message isn't accurate in the way people want to make it (in good faith), and it's pretty easily corrected / refuted. Especially by US posters.
 
It may mean something different state-to-state, nevermind country to country. The problem with that is purely semantics, on a web forum that people from all over discuss on. Generally speaking, it is deployed as either advice that is clueless of the actual barriers in place, or advice that is aware of them, and doesn't care about them enough.

But I guess we're back to human behaviour again, which is the meta thing I try to avoid :D My point is that the core of the message isn't accurate in the way people want to make it (in good faith), and it's pretty easily corrected / refuted. Especially by US posters.

It's pretty good advice, to move to where you more approve. Now, if you're the type that will drain welfare resources from the newer place, then expect to not be wanted. But if someone can make themselves into someone who 'adds value', then moving can even contribute to the longrun success of a worldview, where they move to. But, we don't expect ourselves to be the soldiers in our culture wars (so, might get outmuscled by those who do have that view). And we're very aware of barriers and also conflate them with forgoing desired comforts.

I'll have a different view of this than many, given the sheer number of ESL immigrants that exist is my society. Now, obviously they perceive the rewards for moving to be very high, but I surely suspect that the barriers are also much higher.

But, to swing back on topic, I think 'migration' will be more important to this question (in the US) than I'd predict as someone who has relatively equal laws between my provinces. That's just my prediction thinking in terms of decades.
 
So yeah, I guess you could say I'm prepared to take her word on that. Particularly when I suspect your underlying reason for contesting her claim is that you more-or-less agree with the draft opinion.
I'm glad we can agree it's hearsay and not a fact. And I suspect you're likely to defend her because you like what she's saying. So what? And I haven't read the entire draft opinion, I'd rather wait for the official opinions following a final decision
At the end of the day, what does it really matter who leaked the thing?
For all intents and purposes, it doesn't matter who leaked it beyond that person's life. Maybe after the investigation, who did it will be important and could shed light on the motive. We'll just have to wait and see
If you wanna pretend that the leak itself is a bigger issue than the court's abandonment of stare decisis,
Haven't pretended the leak is more or less important than it is, but there also hasn't been an official decision yet either. The leak has happened, the decision has yet to happen. And abandonment of precedent? Wasn't there a time in the US when Dred Scott was precedent? Or what about Plessy v. Ferguson?
the perjury committed by Trump's appointees,
I'll admit I'm not familiar enough with what you're referring to here to comment
or the suffering that will ultimately be inflicted on the innocent and vulnerable as a consequence of this decision, then you're pretty much telling us where you stand anyway.
Abortion inflicts suffering on the most innocent and vulnerable. As for where I stand? I've made quite clear my stance on abortion in this very thread
 
I'm glad we can agree it's hearsay and not a fact.

She is relating facts which she is in much better position than you are to know.
protip: this isn't a court and you don't magically win the point by typing the word "hearsay".

Abortion inflicts suffering on the most innocent and vulnerable.

Death is not the same as suffering. Indeed, isn't it the case that in your doctrine, the souls of the innocent ascend to the everlasting paradise of Heaven upon death?

And abandonment of precedent? Wasn't there a time in the US when Dred Scott was precedent? Or what about Plessy v. Ferguson?

I don't disagree with you, but then I don't pretend to believe the garbage about the court being impartial and sacred or whatever. The Court is an undemocratic cabal that must either have its authority drastically reduced, or have its activities subjected to meaningful public accountability. In any case, I dismiss the importance of the leak in order to suggest that I am not engaging in motivated reasoning about it. If a liberal clerk did leak the thing hoping to have it changed, my opinion is that it was a dumb and counterproductive thing to do.
 
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Death is not the same as suffering.
Is "abortion inflicts death on the most innocent and vulnerable" supposed to sound better...?
I don't disagree with you, but then I don't pretend to believe the garbage about the court being impartial and sacred or whatever. The Court is an undemocratic cabal that must either have its authority drastically reduced, or have its activities subjected to meaningful public accountability.
I don't think I've said anything about the Court being impartial, sacred, or whatever
She is relating facts which she is in much better position than you are to know.
So she's relating facts which cannot be independently verified?
 

Even if the law is passed, SCOTUS may overturn it.

Idk WTH you people are reading but if you think for a ******* moment they won't move to A) band movement across state lines to get abortions and B) move to enact a national ban the moment they get the potential power to enact it; then you are not paying any ******* attention at all. I would chop these positions up to ignorance but let's be ******* honest about it (this is going to get bounced but it needs ******* said here over and over again), you guys are bigots, your ideas are bigoted by nature, your positions are misogynistic by nature, and your premises of logic are always flawed because they fail to recognize basic facts because those facts lie outside your lived experiences.

I have given my analysis of what may happen if SCOTUS overturns RVW, and all you can do is call me a bigot etc.

Insults are not logical arguments or premises.
 
Is "abortion inflicts death on the most innocent and vulnerable" supposed to sound better...?

I suppose it depends on one's outlook. Use of the word "inflict" is not necessarily valid in this context. Visits would be a more neutral term.
 
I don't disagree with you, but then I don't pretend to believe the garbage about the court being impartial and sacred or whatever. The Court is an undemocratic cabal that must either have its authority drastically reduced, or have its activities subjected to meaningful public accountability. In any case, I dismiss the importance of the leak in order to suggest that I am not engaging in motivated reasoning about it. If a liberal clerk did leak the thing hoping to have it changed, my opinion is that it was a dumb and counterproductive thing to do.
I heard an old classmate on CNN this morning arguing the precedential angle for upholding Roe, and I cringed, because of exactly the points @João III raised. I'm not all that impressed with the Stare Decisis argument in this context.

There were other arguments she and others raised later that were more compelling... but the "we've relied on this right for so long", and/or "the Court has continually upheld this right" arguments are unsound.
 
From the NYT a few hours ago. This also points to a conservative leak.

A Supreme Court in Disarray After an Extraordinary Breach

The leak of a draft majority opinion overruling Roe v. Wade raises questions about motives, methods and whether defections are still possible.
By Adam Liptak
May 3, 2022Updated 1:03 p.m. ET
WASHINGTON — Sources have motives, and the leaked draft opinion overturning Roe v. Wade raises a question as old as the Roman Empire. Cui bono? Who benefits?

Not the Supreme Court as an institution. Its reputation was in decline even before the extraordinary breach of its norms of confidentiality, with much of the nation persuaded that it is little different from the political branches of the government. The internal disarray the leak suggests, wholly at odds with the decorum prized by Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr., was a blow to the legitimacy of the court.

Relations among the justices, too, on the evidence of questioning at arguments and statements in opinions, have turned fraught and frosty. “Will this institution survive the stench that this creates in the public perception that the Constitution and its reading are just political acts?” Justice Sonia Sotomayor asked when the challenge to Roe was argued in December, as it became clear that five justices were ready to overrule the decision.

The fact of the leak cannot be separated from its substance. Only a move as extraordinary as eliminating a constitutional right in place for half a century could transform the court into an institution like any other in Washington, where rival factions disclose secrets in the hope of obtaining advantage. “Until now, a leak of this kind would have been unthinkable,” said Peter G. Verniero, a former justice of the New Jersey Supreme Court. “The protocol of our highest court has been seriously ruptured. The leaking itself reflects another sad step toward casting the court as a political body, which, whatever your preferred jurisprudence, is most unhealthy for the rule of law.”

The court sustained collateral damage in March, when it emerged that Virginia Thomas, the wife of Justice Clarence Thomas, had sent incendiary text messages to the Trump White House in the weeks leading up to the Jan. 6 attack and that Justice Thomas not only had failed to disqualify himself from a related case but also had cast the sole noted dissent.

The harm from the leak was more direct, raising questions about whether the court is capable of functioning in an orderly way.

Justice Samuel A. Alito Jr.’s draft opinion is dated Feb. 10, or almost three months ago. Under the court’s ordinary practices, additional drafts have circulated since then, as Justice Alito refined his arguments, made changes to accommodate his allies, responded to criticisms in one or more draft concurrences or dissents — and, crucially, worked to make sure he did not lose his majority.

The draft was marked “opinion of the court,” meaning it was intended to reflect the views of at least five justices. Politico, which obtained the document, reported that five members of the court had voted to overrule Roe soon after the argument in December: Justices Alito and Thomas and the three members of the court appointed by President Donald J. Trump — Justices Neil M. Gorsuch, Brett M. Kavanaugh and Amy Coney Barrett.

Those five votes were in keeping with the questions those justices asked at the argument. They were also consistent with Mr. Trump’s vow to appoint justices who would overrule Roe, which established a constitutional right to abortion in 1973.
“That lineup remains unchanged as of this week,” Politico reported. Still, Justice Alito was no doubt worried that Chief Justice Roberts, who sketched out a middle-ground position at the argument, might threaten his majority. The chief justice suggested that the court could uphold the Mississippi law at issue in the case, which bans abortions after 15 weeks, but stop short of overruling Roe outright.

That position would have been viewed as extreme just a few years ago, as it would eliminate the key element of Roe and of Planned Parenthood v. Casey, the 1992 decision that reaffirmed what it called Roe’s “central holding” — that “a state may not prohibit any woman from making the ultimate decision to terminate her pregnancy before viability.”

Viability, the ability of the fetus to survive outside the womb, is these days around 23 weeks, meaning that Mississippi’s 15-week law is flatly at odds with Roe and Casey. But the chief justice’s approach, whether considered incremental or unprincipled, would have left abortion available, for now, to many people.

In an editorial last week, The Wall Street Journal expressed concern that Chief Justice Roberts was trying to persuade Justices Kavanaugh and Barrett to take his narrower approach. The point of the leak, then, may have been to lock in the five-justice conservative majority.
“I would be wary of jumping to a conclusion that the leaker is necessarily someone who opposes overturning Roe v. Wade,” said Richard L. Hasen, a law professor at the University of California, Irvine. Kermit Roosevelt, a law professor at the University of Pennsylvania, said the source was probably trying to increase the price of switching positions.

“In terms of who leaked it and why, it seems much more likely to me that it comes from the right in response to an actual or threatened defection by one of the five who voted to overturn Roe,” he said. “Leaking this early draft makes that more costly for a defector because now people will think that they changed their vote after the leak in response to public outrage.”

Professor Hasen said there was another benefit to the right from the disclosure of the draft opinion. “This kind of leak could in fact help the likely future majority overturning Roe if it deflects the conversation to the question of Supreme Court secrecy and the danger of leaks to the legitimacy of the process,” he said. “That’s better than a conversation about the potential illegitimacy of overturning longstanding precedent allowing reproductive choice. It also could be intended to soften the blow by signaling to everyone the earthquake to come.”

Even as Chief Justice Roberts said on Tuesday that he had ordered an investigation into what he described as an “egregious breach of trust,” it was not clear that the leak violated any law. As Chief Justice Warren E. Burger wrote in a footnote in his dissent in the Pentagon Papers case, which refused to block publication of a secret history of the Vietnam War, “No statute gives this court express power to establish and enforce the utmost security measures for the secrecy of our deliberations and records.”

Nonetheless, he noted, the court is not powerless to root out and punish the source: “I have little doubt as to the inherent power of the court to protect the confidentiality of its internal operations by whatever judicial measures may be required.” The reasoning in the draft opinion is what one would expect from Justice Alito, a fierce critic of Roe and Casey, said Richard W. Garnett, a law professor at Notre Dame. “It is unlikely that any observers or commentators familiar with the case are actually surprised by the possibility that Justice Alito has drafted a majority opinion stating that those decisions were ‘egregiously wrong,’” Professor Garnett said.

“In any event, however, for an employee or member of the court to intentionally leak a draft opinion would be a gross betrayal of trust, particularly if the leak were an effort to advance partisan aims or to undermine the court’s work and legitimacy,” Professor Garnett added. “Whatever our views on particular legal questions, we should all hope that the justices will not be swayed or influenced by such efforts.”

The Supreme Court confirmed on Tuesday that the draft opinion was authentic but cautioned that it did not “represent a final decision by the court or the final position of any member on the issues in the case.” Lynn Fitch, Mississippi’s attorney general, said in a statement, “We will let the Supreme Court speak for itself and wait for the court’s official opinion.”
 
I have date to keep. I know with who and where. Whatever else is true, death is not neutral. It's not a visit. It moves in. At least for our term, here.
 
but remember, the fundamental question here is when a person becomes a person. if you are killing a person, the things you are talking about are trivial/not worth considering weighed against it. if you are not killing a person, then the burden of travel isn't relevant...you're somewhere that doesn't consider whatever amount of progression that has happened to be killing a person yet.
Moderator Action: This thread is not about personhood. Do not go there. If you want to discuss that topic start a new thread. Clear?
 
No @Birdjaguar that is not clear at all. Above is literally the first post of this topic, which was made before the recent news. Personhood is the pro-life argument in a nutshell, so it's ridiculous to say it's OT when the topic is "abortion once again".
Thank you for your opinion, but...
Moderator Action: ...personhood is a controversial topic and one in which folks can get heated. It deserves its own thread rather than being mixed with the broader topic of Abortion. To have such a discussion all you have to do is open a thread on the topic. Forcing it into its own thread helps keep the discussion focused and with luck, more interesting and useful. My use of the word "clear" was directed at TMIT since it was his second attempt to add personhood to the discussion. It was added for emphasis. I used his specific post to make a general announcement about the topic. In the same manner I am using your post to clarify for everyone that I want any personhood discussions in their own thread and not this one. I have found that we have better discussions? when controversial things have their own space and are not mixed with other issues. That is why we stopped discussions about 2014 events the Ukraine war. Personhood is a fine topic. If it is so important to you, start a thread. Thanks.
 
American women can obtain abortions in Canada if Roe v. Wade falls, minister says

Families Minister Karina Gould worries Canadian women from border regions could lose abortion access in U.S.


American women will be able to obtain abortions in Canada if the United States Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade and returns abortion law to the state level, says Karina Gould, minister of families, children and social development.

In an interview with CBC News Network's Power & Politics on Tuesday, Gould was asked if American women would be allowed to access the procedure in Canada.

"I don't see why we would not," she told host Vassy Kapelos. "If they, people, come here and need access, certainly, you know, that's a service that would be provided."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-provide-abortion-access-american-women-1.6440238
 
Abortion cannot be discussed without personhood. Is it only a news thread, like the mass shootings one? Doesn't seem like it.
 
Abortion cannot be discussed without personhood. Is it only a news thread, like the mass shootings one? Doesn't seem like it.
Moderator Action: If you want to discuss person hood, start a thread on that topic. The SCOTUS report has far more to it than just personhood. You are the third person who wants to talk about it. If it means that much to you start a thread. I do not want to gum up the other aspects of the SCOTUS leak with a topic as controversial as personhood.
 
So it's a news thread.

Moderator Action: No, is just not a discussion of personhood thread. Birdjaguar.
 
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