[RD] Abortion, once again

[Synobun]

As expected, the Conservative party in Canada has censored its members from discussing the leak and the implications of a Roe v Wade repeal. They also refused to participate in a show of solidarity from the other parties.

 

[IglooDame]

I've never had too much of an opinion on Roe v Wade proper, but Alito's opinion is both scary and not. Sure precedent and stare decisis should rule, but... except for decisions like
Dred Scott v. Sanford, Plessy v. Ferguson, and Bowers v. Hardwick, right?

 

[Farm Boy]

Well, take it easy then.

 

[Cutlass]

I've never had too much of an opinion on Roe v Wade proper, but Alito's opinion is both scary and not. Sure precedent and stare decisis should rule, but... except for decisions like
Dred Scott v. Sanford, Plessy v. Ferguson, and Bowers v. Hardwick, right?

Constitutional case law is usually evolutionary. Except in extreme circumstances. An evolution of precedent is normal. Roe is a normal evolution from Griswold. Major breaks from precedent, without compelling need, now that's a radical thing. Hobby Lobby, Citizen's United, these were major breaks from precedent without compelling need. They are just politics realized through the judicial forum.

 

[Sommerswerd]

"War is the continuation of policy with other means." - Carl Von Clausewitz

War is politics by other means... So is politics war by other means?

Or is this a "war is peace", "freedom is slavery" situation?

 

[João III]

I've never had too much of an opinion on Roe v Wade proper, but Alito's opinion is both scary and not. Sure precedent and stare decisis should rule, but... except for decisions like
Dred Scott v. Sanford, Plessy v. Ferguson, and Bowers v. Hardwick, right?

Not to mention Buck v. Bell

 

[Lexicus]

I'm not all that impressed with the Stare Decisis argument in this context.

Nor am I, but people who take the idea of the Court's apolitical legitimacy seriously may have a different opinion.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

It's not the end of the world if Roe vs Wade is repealed. It's back to 1972 in some areas.

Says someone who will never, ever have to care about women's reproductive rights.

I remember way back when, when Stephen Harper was first prime minister. It wasn't long after Paul Martin (last Liberal PM we had before the Dark Decade) tabled legislation making same-sex marriage legal throughout Canada. Harper's supporters wanted him to repeal that legislation and make abortion illegal (or at least allow a debate in the House).

He said that if any backbencher wanted to speak on it, they could. But he would not entertain any legislation intended to repeal SSM or to criminalize abortion.

It's not that he actually gives a damn about women's reproductive rights. It's because he knew that he would be crucified, electorally speaking, in the next election.

Its not the end of the world it's not the end of the world and you can do a new roe vs Wade further down the line.

It might not be the end of your world. But it very well could be end of other people's worlds.

Keep in mind that you enjoy a perk that few other members here do: You don't share a land border with anyone. No other country can just drive over your border and enforce whatever they want to enforce. As posted a few comments ago, Canada has said American women can go across the border to access abortions here if they need to. And Minister Gould has pointed out that some Canadian women who live close to the border and access American health services (being too far away for it to be practical to access Canadian services) could find themselves in a bad situation.

I would hate to think that one of the standard questions asked by the customs agents of female drivers/passengers might be if they're pregnant and if so, are they crossing the border to obtain an abortion.

US politics have been so disturbing for many years now..
honestly it affects everybody. In european countries there are also Trumpists now. Covid took their paranoia levels to new heights.
Everything spreads fast with social media. So my point basically is that one countries problem can become worldwide fast.

And sure, posting on CFC will not change anything. But i can understand every frustration voiced, certainly feels like the world has become worse "recently".

This matters greatly in Canada not only because of reasons I stated earlier in this post, but because if something monumentally stupid or cruel becomes law in the U.S., there are some parties and provincial governments here who think, "Hey, what a great idea! Let's do that here!"

And so you have Reformacon MPs wearing MAGA hats at UCP rallies in Alberta. You have the premier of my province scampering hither and yon in the U.S., going on right-wing "news" interviews, spinning his lies about how horrible the "socialists" are here and how he has to "save" everyone from their "ideology."

He did make a point of saying there were no plans to restrict abortion access in my province. But he still doesn't give a damn about the women who have difficulty accessing it because they live in small towns or remote areas and the nearest hospital that offers it is hundreds of miles away, and he's all for pharmacists and doctors exercising their "conscience rights" to the point that they don't even have to refer the patient elsewhere.

Wokeism doesn't exist at any meaningful level. It's a right wing fabrication, where they take a local situation somewhere and stretch it until they manage to make it look bad.

"Wokeism." Yes, it's a fabrication, but that doesn't mean politicians can't spin it into something that gets insanely out of control.

The way I see it, the federal government won't be able to make any federal abortion law.

The USA will therefore be divided into states where abortion is legal and states where abortion is illegal.

This will result in women travelling from states where abortion is illegal to states where abortion is legal to get abortions.

And they (the states where it's illegal) can just legislate that as illegal too, on top of everything else.

Law would punish helping Missourians get out-of-state abortions | STLPR (stlpublicradio.org)

Idk WTH you people are reading but if you think for a ******* moment they won't move to A) band movement across state lines to get abortions and B) move to enact a national ban the moment they get the potential power to enact it; then you are not paying any ******* attention at all. I would chop these positions up to ignorance but let's be ******* honest about it (this is going to get bounced but it needs ******* said here over and over again), you guys are bigots, your ideas are bigoted by nature, your positions are misogynistic by nature, and your premises of logic are always flawed because they fail to recognize basic facts because those facts lie outside your lived experiences.

I was under the impression that it's perfectly legal to travel between states as long as you're not carrying contraband or violating parole or kidnapping people, or violating covid laws (if they exist). Are they going to have the pregnancy/abortion police every 10 metres to make sure women don't make it across?

If so, Gilead has come indeed, and I'm thankful to be on the north side of the 49th (though there are people in my province and in the Reformacon party who would happily hand out red dresses and white bonnets to the women of Canada).*

*Handmaid's Tale reference

As expected, the Conservative party in Canada has censored its members from discussing the leak and the implications of a Roe v Wade repeal. They also refused to participate in a show of solidarity from the other parties.

Of course. I imagine the Reformacon/UCP FB pages are quite lively now. I think I've been blocked from a couple of MLAs' pages, but at least I can still call my own a liar and idiot (in her pre-provincial politics career, she was on the Catholic school board here and saw nothing wrong with busing kids to an anti-abortion rally as a "field trip").

 

[Zardnaar]

Says someone who will never, ever have to care about women's reproductive rights.

I remember way back when, when Stephen Harper was first prime minister. It wasn't long after Paul Martin (last Liberal PM we had before the Dark Decade) tabled legislation making same-sex marriage legal throughout Canada. Harper's supporters wanted him to repeal that legislation and make abortion illegal (or at least allow a debate in the House).

He said that if any backbencher wanted to speak on it, they could. But he would not entertain any legislation intended to repeal SSM or to criminalize abortion.

It's not that he actually gives a damn about women's reproductive rights. It's because he knew that he would be crucified, electorally speaking, in the next election.


It might not be the end of your world. But it very well could be end of other people's worlds.

Keep in mind that you enjoy a perk that few other members here do: You don't share a land border with anyone. No other country can just drive over your border and enforce whatever they want to enforce. As posted a few comments ago, Canada has said American women can go across the border to access abortions here if they need to. And Minister Gould has pointed out that some Canadian women who live close to the border and access American health services (being too far away for it to be practical to access Canadian services) could find themselves in a bad situation.

I would hate to think that one of the standard questions asked by the customs agents of female drivers/passengers might be if they're pregnant and if so, are they crossing the border to obtain an abortion.


This matters greatly in Canada not only because of reasons I stated earlier in this post, but because if something monumentally stupid or cruel becomes law in the U.S., there are some parties and provincial governments here who think, "Hey, what a great idea! Let's do that here!"

And so you have Reformacon MPs wearing MAGA hats at UCP rallies in Alberta. You have the premier of my province scampering hither and yon in the U.S., going on right-wing "news" interviews, spinning his lies about how horrible the "socialists" are here and how he has to "save" everyone from their "ideology."

He did make a point of saying there were no plans to restrict abortion access in my province. But he still doesn't give a damn about the women who have difficulty accessing it because they live in small towns or remote areas and the nearest hospital that offers it is hundreds of miles away, and he's all for pharmacists and doctors exercising their "conscience rights" to the point that they don't even have to refer the patient elsewhere.


"Wokeism." Yes, it's a fabrication, but that doesn't mean politicians can't spin it into something that gets insanely out of control.




I was under the impression that it's perfectly legal to travel between states as long as you're not carrying contraband or violating parole or kidnapping people, or violating covid laws (if they exist). Are they going to have the pregnancy/abortion police every 10 metres to make sure women don't make it across?

If so, Gilead has come indeed, and I'm thankful to be on the north side of the 49th (though there are people in my province and in the Reformacon party who would happily hand out red dresses and white bonnets to the women of Canada).*

*Handmaid's Tale reference


Of course. I imagine the Reformacon/UCP FB pages are quite lively now. I think I've been blocked from a couple of MLAs' pages, but at least I can still call my own a liar and idiot (in her pre-provincial politics career, she was on the Catholic school board here and saw nothing wrong with busing kids to an anti-abortion rally as a "field trip").

What I'm saying is t electoral strategy involved was bad and has lead to this.

Electoral college and the constitution basically define what youan do in the US. Wade vs Roe was not set in concrete.

This isn't a big surprise once Trump appointed 3 SC judges.

My expectations for the US default are set very low and have been since mid 90's or so.

Even then I have to lower them to Rick bottom, pull out TNT, blow up a shaft, dig a bit deeper then get a borehole drill and the USA still goes lower.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

For some on here, this issue is just a thrilling intellectual challenge to be resolved with daring, counter-intuitive takes. They tend to be those - white, straight, cis, christian and/or wealthy - who have never needed to worry about being on the wrong side of power. Lucky them.

 

[EgonSpengler]

The Washington Post, 3 May 2022 - "Majority of Americans say Supreme Court should uphold Roe, Post-ABC poll finds"

From the poll:

Should the U.S. Supreme Court uphold or overturn Roe v. Wade?
Uphold - 54%
Overturn - 28%

Abortions should be...
...legal, in all or most cases - 58%
...illegal, in all or most cases - 28%

The decision whether a woman can have an abortion should be...
...left to the woman and her doctor - 70%
...regulated by law - 24%

Even people polled in the 26 states ready to enact restrictions on abortion tend to support legal abortions. In those 26 states,
30% support making abortions harder to get in their state
30% support making abortions easier to get in their state
34% say existing laws in their state should not be changed

Link to the 14-page pdf.

 

[Senethro]

Some great and incredible things have been accomplished through pragmatism and compromise and the people involved have been rightly praised for it.

And then some other people looked at those accomplishments and missed the point - that negotiation and compromise were the means, not the ends. They would rather fail in a virtuous way - repeatedly - with bad faith actors who are undermining negotiation while adhering to the forms.

You can't compromise with someone in a winning position as they need do nothing. You can't negotiate away your own existence (though some people will try on your behalf. I'm looking at trans-exclusive LGB advocacy here.)

So it gets pretty tiresome reading Dr Zardnaars Cureall to every ill being More Electoralism, More Moderation, More Adherence to the Polite Forms!

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Just sitting in their ivory tower, musing about issues that will never affect them

 

[sophie]

 

[IglooDame]

Image doesn't show for me...

 

[Zardnaar]

Some great and incredible things have been accomplished through pragmatism and compromise and the people involved have been rightly praised for it.

And then some other people looked at those accomplishments and missed the point - that negotiation and compromise were the means, not the ends. They would rather fail in a virtuous way - repeatedly - with bad faith actors who are undermining negotiation while adhering to the forms.

You can't compromise with someone in a winning position as they need do nothing. You can't negotiate away your own existence (though some people will try on your behalf. I'm looking at trans-exclusive LGB advocacy here.)

So it gets pretty tiresome reading Dr Zardnaars Cureall to every ill being More Electoralism, More Moderation, More Adherence to the Polite Forms!

More finding policy that appeals to a larger group of people in the right places.

As much hate as WV Senator gets you've only got 50 total that's not enough.

I know NZ may not have best education system but we can generally count and know things like 51/100 is good 60/100 is better.

What you're doing isn't working so well. Proof is in the pudding da?

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Glad you can be so flippant and blasé about the majority of the population losing basic bodily autonomy and civil rights

 

[Senethro]

More finding policy that appeals to a larger group of people in the right places.

As much hate as WV Senator gets you've only got 50 total that's not enough.

I know NZ may not have best education system but we can generally count and know things like 51/100 is good 60/100 is better.

What you're doing isn't working so well. Proof is in the pudding da?

Just completely missing the point.

 

[amadeus]

This is a video game forum.

 

[Senethro]

This is a video game forum.

Yah exactly. Where else am I going to say this crap? I've spent years cultivating the most boring workplace persona in order to survive, so where else am I going to be remotely authentic about how everything is really actually quite messed up and awful except where it doesn't matter?