Airliner shot down over disputed part of Ukraine

[Ziggy Stardust]

I don't think any evidence would be sufficient for some people.

The preliminary report from the Dutch team said MH17 broke up in mid-air after being hit by "numerous objects" that "pierced the plane at high velocity" from outside the cabin and above the level of the cockpit floor.

In full on BBC news: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28357880

What took them so long? Interesting question. Research on the ground in Eastern Ukraine was limited by continued fighting in the area. The debris was scattered over a 2km radius area. The so-called black boxes were initially not available. Thorough research of all data takes time. This is a preliminary report into what technically caused the crash.

That said Ukrainian cooperation, including the rebels, has been as good as could be expected under the circumstances. Identification of all bodily remains (repatriation of all of which too over 1 week) has, as far as I know, been concluded, giving all surviving relatives the possibility of closure.

Quite an extensive explenation of their findings, thanks for posting.

 

[red_elk]

As well as for some other people, anything would qualify as a sufficient evidence.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Evidence is not the same as proof.

There's lots of evidence, not none as you claimed.

 

[peter grimes]

To be fair, what proof would require a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt that it was Russian soldiers and not Ukrainian separatists that downed the plane? Even if there's a chemical signature that unambiguously shows it was a Russian-made SAM, that doesn't say anything about the guys that did it, right?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

And that's it? After about 2 months? What took them so long?

Two months is very fast.

Gather pieces of airplane scattered over large crash field.

Put pieces together like giant three dimensional jigsaw puzzle.

Run analysis on numerous pieces to determine whether damage came from incident source or hitting the ground. Theorize, test, theorize, test, theorize some more.

Frequently it takes a year or more to get a final conclusive report out of a crash analysis.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

To be fair, what proof would require a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt that it was Russian soldiers and not Ukrainian separatists that downed the plane? Even if there's a chemical signature that unambiguously shows it was a Russian-made SAM, that doesn't say anything about the guys that did it, right?

No proof is required. Russia is the source of all evil in Europe. Just ask the rest of Europe, they'll tell you.

 

[Agent327]

Two months is very fast.

Gather pieces of airplane scattered over large crash field.

Put pieces together like giant three dimensional jigsaw puzzle.

Run analysis on numerous pieces to determine whether damage came from incident source or hitting the ground. Theorize, test, theorize, test, theorize some more.

Frequently it takes a year or more to get a final conclusive report out of a crash analysis.

The final report is indeed expected in 1 year's time.

 

[Domen]

Indogermanic language family.

Wut ???

 

[Rashiminos]

Russians 'controlled BUK missile system'

From the article :

"Three eyewitnesses, all civilians, separately told Panorama that they saw a missile-launcher in rebel-held territory a few hours before the Boeing jet was hit.

[...]

The eyewitness told the BBC that the crew struck him as Russian soldiers: "Well-disciplined, unlike the rebels, and not wearing the standard Ukrainian camouflage uniform sported by government and rebel troops alike."

"They had pure Russian accents. They say the letter 'g' differently to us," he said.

In eastern Ukraine, most people speak Russian but the BUK crew did not speak Russian with a local accent.

His testimony was confirmed by a second eyewitness, who added that an officer in a military jeep escorting the BUK spoke with a Muscovite accent."

Of course it won't convince anyone who wants to not be convinced, but it's just yet another evidence that will be dismissed but still exists, of the Russian involvement in Ukraine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyewitness_testimony

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Which is why

Distinctive shrapnel damage to the plane points to a fragmentation weapon - such as a BUK - downing the plane.

The Kremlin had previously suggested that the missile was from a Ukrainian fighter jet.

Pro-Russian rebels have denied any possession of a BUK.

However, photographs and videos cast doubt on the claim by the Kremlin and pro-Russian rebels - that they did not have a BUK missile launcher on their territory.

Is more telling. Not conclusive of course. "Cast doubt" is a correct description.

Why would the Kremlin suggest a missile from a Ukranian figther jet? What's their evidence for that?

 

[Agent327]

None. The German secret service agency already debunked this in a typically thorough analysis of all available data as presented to the Bundestag/parliament. Also, since the rebels areknown to have shot down several Ukrainian planes both before and after the incident, the denial to have one (or more) Buk system makes little sense.

 

[Kyriakos]

None. The German secret service agency already debunked this in a typically thorough analysis of all available data as presented to the Bundestag/parliament. Also, since the rebels areknown to have shot down several Ukrainian planes both before and after the incident, the denial to have one (or more) Buk system makes little sense.

It's good that they are not a party invested in actually 'debunking' any pro-Russian claim, right?

Right. Reminds me of the equally important MI-6 report on Saddam having WMDs, and so Blair can sell the war

 

[gay_Aleks]

"we have just received info that pro-Ukrainian forces have developed a weaponized version of Ebola"

Bam, 100 million views. You don't have to thank me, Daily Mail!

 

[Agent327]

It's good that they are not a party invested in actually 'debunking' any pro-Russian claim, right?

Right. Reminds me of the equally important MI-6 report on Saddam having WMDs, and so Blair can sell the war

Wrong. If you were actually following the news, you might have noticed the BND also debunked Ukranian claims the Russians shot down the plane. But who cares about such details, right? Right.

Also, it wasn't Blair selling a war, but Blair being Bush's puppy dog. Damn, these facts can be so annoying to people with views, right? Right.

Also, 4 victims were Germans, while the majority were Dutch. So the Dutch investigation must also obviously be biased, right? I guess you also missed the preliminary report on the cause of what brought down flight MH17. Thanks so much for your concern.

 

[Agent327]

Finally some news concerning the official investigation into the downing of flight MH17:

Russian officer recognized on tape in Dutch MH17 investigation

by Steven Derix en Karel Knip

One of the individuals who may have been involved in the downing of flight MH17 according to the Dutch Public Prosecution Service (OM), was recognized by Ukraine as a former high ranking Russian intelligence officer.

It is the first indication that the Dutch Prosecution Service is considering the involvement of high ranking Russian (former) servicemen.

On Monday, the Public Prosecution Service published four tapped telephone conversations from the period surrounding the crash. The service did not reveal the callers’ identities, but explained that the conversations featured “separatists”. On Monday, chief prosecutor Fred Westerbeke spoke of “authentic recordings” that “were analyzed through and through”.

Full article (including video footage) here: http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2015/04/01...zed-on-tape-by-dutch-investigation-team-mh17/

 

[Cutlass]

Flight MH17: Four suspects charged with murder are named

Almost 300 people died when Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 was shot down above eastern Ukraine on 17 July 2014.



Key points

• Investigators giving update on probe into downing of Flight MH17
• Four suspects - three Russian, one Ukrainian - to be charged with murder
• Criminal case against suspects to begin in March 2020
• The Malaysia Airlines plane went down over eastern Ukraine in July 2014
• All 298 passengers and crew were killed
• Investigators say plane was downed by a Buk missile fired from eastern Ukraine
• What do we know so far? Click here

https://news.sky.com/story/mh17-cra...ur-with-murder-over-downing-of-plane-11744648

 

[Agent327]

Ironically, the offical Russian response was that the whole investigation has been biased, intending to find Russian guilt from the start. I guess that's slightly better than the Fake News reports coming out on the incident since the plane was shot down. Even more ironic that the initial findings were in fact supported by the Russian members of the Joint Investigation Team, who then changed their tune, saying their initial findings were 'a hypothesis'. Since then, of course, all Russian cooperation with the investigation ceased.

 

[Hrothbern]

Ukrain and Russia are in the process to exchange prisoners.
Alway good in de-escalating... right ?

But one of the prisoners to be handed over to Russia is an essential witness for the MH-17 process



It is always good to know who you can trust... right ?

Ukrain is I guess not one of them

 

[plarq]

Now that is interesting.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Ukrain and Russia are in the process to exchange prisoners.
Alway good in de-escalating... right ?

But one of the prisoners to be handed over to Russia is an essential witness for the MH-17 process



It is always good to know who you can trust... right ?

Ukrain is I guess not one of them

I am guessing they've already got all of the witness statements and information out of him that they can get. And it's not like Russia is ever going to acknowledge any wrongdoing or involvement so it probably won't hurt anything to turn him over at this point.