Alan Dershowitz on MSNBC

[Berzerker]

He appeared on Kasie's show this weekend and it got a bit heated. He's written a book arguing Trump shouldn't be impeached. Dershowitz said Rosenstein and Strzok should have recused themselves because they're major witnesses to the crime they're investigating. Maybe a lawyer around here can explain it better. But I think since Comey was informing them along the way, they're actually witnesses.

He argues impeachment needs a crime and it aint a crime for Trump to receive dirt on Hillary. Collusion is not a crime. His examples: leaks - Pentagon Papers, Snowden, Manning etc... You can receive stolen information, you just cant order or commit the theft. And the Trump campaign may not have gotten the actual dirt, the Russians sought a 3rd party for their publication.

Now Trump came close to doing that when he asked Russia to release Hillary's emails if they had them. And apparently he did that 2 days after this meeting in Trump Tower when his people met with the Russians. The meeting Trump denied knowing about. The meeting they've been lying about for months. So they must have told him they had dirt and 2 days later he "asks" them to release it and they show up on wikileaks. The leakers get praise or hate depending on who the dirt is about.

Anyway, it started getting a bit nasty when Dershowitz was accused of defending Trump. Dershowitz said this isn't about Trump, its about civil liberties and he'd be making the same argument if it was Hillary. Oh wait, what did she do? The Steele Dossier. Hmm... Can you pay a foreigner to give you dirt on your opponent in an election? I sure hope he wasn't involved in stealing any information.

So he likens this to an accordion as laws are being stretched beyond their purpose - narrowly interpreted restrictions. He quoted some guy who said, "show me the man and I will find the crime". Kinda like how 'collusion' became the media mantra. Yeah, they colluded with Russians. And that aint illegal. Hillary's campaign 'colluded' with someone to get dirt on Trump.

While I suspect Trump's financial entanglements are where the real crimes are hidden, as of now it looks like Trump did try to get dirt on Hillary and wikileaks was the outlet for the Russians. I dont know if the Trump campaign got a copy, but it aint impeachable if they did. Dershowitz was asked about campaign finance laws and obstruction of justice and dismissed them as below the standard for impeachment. They could get Don Jr for perjury though, he lied about the meeting to the Senate apparently under oath.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Yeah, I saw it. He made the most overt case I've seen him make that he's not defending Trump just civil liberties. He usually keeps that quiet because he likes the attention he's getting by taking a position that runs against the general media narrative (i.e. seeming like he is defending Trump).

I'm not a lawyer either, but his claim that "high crimes and misdemeanors" requires that an existing law be broken seems poorly founded. If the Constitution is giving Congress the right to impeach a president on those grounds, it's giving them the capacity to define what that is, it would seem to me. Otherwise it would read "any of the duly enacted laws of the republic" or something like that. Moreover, otherwise it's "he can't be charged with a crime while he's president, and he can't be impeached unless he's charged with a crime." Pure applesauce.

He is careful to stress that all of his views are based on the existing state of public knowledge, and that his position could change if more information came out.

 

[JollyRoger]

Obstruction of Justice is not below the standard for impeachment. Mueller is the one investigating - not Rosenstein or Strzok. Dershowitz has no idea what Mueller has, so he is just rattling off his presumptions of what the investigation has found and his opinion should be looked at in light of that lack of knowledge.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Anyway, it started getting a bit nasty when Dershowitz was accused of defending Trump. Dershowitz said this isn't about Trump, its about civil liberties and he'd be making the same argument if it was Hillary. Oh wait, what did she do? The Steele Dossier. Hmm... Can you pay a foreigner to give you dirt on your opponent in an election? I sure hope he wasn't involved in stealing any information.

Coupla of points
1) Paying an ALLY for research is different to asking a ENEMY to break in and Steal information
2) Who was it that started the Steel Dossier as opposition research ?
3) Who alerted the FBI with this information because it was deemed to be serious enough to be credible ?
4) Who was it that hax the US election servers ? Funnel money to the NRA ?, haxed US electrical system ? Spread disinformation on opponent ? was it the BRITISH ?

Dershowitz is correct and hes not the first to say Conspiracy charge is only possible IF the Russian broke into Clinton campaign at the request of Trump
Then again, Republicans impeached Bill Clinton after a six year investigation over an extra martial affair

 

[Broken_Erika]

Coupla of points
1) Paying an ALLY for research is different to asking a ENEMY to break in and Steal information
2) Who was it that started the Steel Dossier as opposition research ?
3) Who alerted the FBI with this information because it was deemed to be serious enough to be credible ?
4) Who was it that hax the US election servers ? Funnel money to the NRA ?, haxed US electrical system ? Spread disinformation on opponent ? was it the BRITISH ?

Dershowitz is correct and hes not the first to say Conspiracy charge is only possible IF the Russian broke into Clinton campaign at the request of Trump
Then again, Republicans impeached Bill Clinton after a six year investigation over an extra martial affair

The answer to you questions:
1: Her Emails!
2: Her Emails!
3: Her Emails!
4: BAAAAAAAAANNNNNNGGGHHHHAAAAAZZZZZIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!!!!

 

[FriendlyFire]

He is careful to stress that all of his views are based on the existing state of public knowledge, and that his position could change if more information came out.

I watched hes earlier interviews on the Faux he was an pretty much deep into the Mueller is a criminal and that Prosecutors not be allowed to charge wives of Enron for crimes and get them to flip

As the Cohen story starts to unravel, Mueller starts getting more indictments and more crimes are revealed. Dershowitz has toned back much of hes more ardent defense of Trump by attacking the FBI and Prosecutors
Hes position that Trump shouldnt be impeach and only voted out, but that horse left the barn with Clinton impeachment.

At least Dershowitz is aware of whats happening outside the Faux bubble and has taken step to keep Trump team at arms length. I wonder which way he will jump when Trump triggers a constitutional crisis to try and save himself

 

[onejayhawk]

Obstruction of Justice is not below the standard for impeachment. Mueller is the one investigating - not Rosenstein or Strzok. Dershowitz has no idea what Mueller has, so he is just rattling off his presumptions of what the investigation has found and his opinion should be looked at in light of that lack of knowledge.

We do have some idea, which is pretty much nothing. Otherwise, they would not be fishing in the tweet files or indicting Russians that did not have an impact on anything.

J

 

[Gori the Grey]

Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones.

How much Mueller has would fall into the category of unknown known. Mueller knows. None of the rest of us have any way of knowing.

The Dunkin Donuts change machine spit me out 67 cents after my purchase this morning. How many dollar bills did the cashier hand me?

 

[FriendlyFire]

We do have some idea, which is pretty much nothing. Otherwise, they would not be fishing in the tweet files or indicting Russians that did not have an impact on anything. J

Ken Starr says Hi

 

[onejayhawk]

Ken Starr says Hi

I met him once. Nice enough in person, but you expect that from a college President. Now he's a former college President.

In any event, he had much more to report than Mueller.

J

 

[FriendlyFire]

I met him once. Nice enough in person, but you expect that from a college President. Now he's a former college President.
In any event, he had much more to report than Mueller.J

Now Now J
Mueller is only just getting started, he has another four and half years to go
I too am looking forward to "Mueller cracking Trump Jnr like an egg"

 

[Berzerker]

Obstruction of Justice is not below the standard for impeachment. Mueller is the one investigating - not Rosenstein or Strzok. Dershowitz has no idea what Mueller has, so he is just rattling off his presumptions of what the investigation has found and his opinion should be looked at in light of that lack of knowledge.

It is when the obstruction is limited to lying about a legal activity... Now if Trump commits perjury that'd be different. But sure, Dershowitz said if they have a crime that we dont know about yet his opinion would change. But as J said, if Mueller's running thru Trump's tweets they cant have much.

I'm not a lawyer either, but his claim that "high crimes and misdemeanors" requires that an existing law be broken seems poorly founded. If the Constitution is giving Congress the right to impeach a president on those grounds, it's giving them the capacity to define what that is, it would seem to me. Otherwise it would read "any of the duly enacted laws of the republic" or something like that. Moreover, otherwise it's "he can't be charged with a crime while he's president, and he can't be impeached unless he's charged with a crime." Pure applesauce.

Congress cant define a non-crime as a crime to impeach a President, but I'd think a high crime or misdemeanor not just violates a law, but an important one.

Coupla of points
1) Paying an ALLY for research is different to asking a ENEMY to break in and Steal information
2) Who was it that started the Steel Dossier as opposition research ?
3) Who alerted the FBI with this information because it was deemed to be serious enough to be credible ?
4) Who was it that hax the US election servers ? Funnel money to the NRA ?, haxed US electrical system ? Spread disinformation on opponent ? was it the BRITISH ?

Dershowitz is correct and hes not the first to say Conspiracy charge is only possible IF the Russian broke into Clinton campaign at the request of Trump
Then again, Republicans impeached Bill Clinton after a six year investigation over an extra martial affair

1) Russia is not the enemy. The 1st Amendment doesn't have such caveats like ally or enemy and Trump didn't ask Russia to steal the emails, just to release them. 2&3) I dont know, but Hillary's campaign 'colluded' with a foreigner to get dirt on her opponent so it wouldn't surprise me if her campaign manufactured or enabled the leaks. 4) Russia...does it matter? Putin aint being impeached.

 

[Dachs]

Obstruction of Justice is not below the standard for impeachment. Mueller is the one investigating - not Rosenstein or Strzok. Dershowitz has no idea what Mueller has, so he is just rattling off his presumptions of what the investigation has found and his opinion should be looked at in light of that lack of knowledge.

Also he's salty that his freedom of speech is being violated by his former friends on Martha's Vineyard, who are now unwilling to extend him party invitations.

 

[FriendlyFire]

1) Russia is not the enemy. The 1st Amendment doesn't have such caveats like ally or enemy and Trump didn't ask Russia to steal the emails, just to release them. 2&3) I dont know, but Hillary's campaign 'colluded' with a foreigner to get dirt on her opponent so it wouldn't surprise me if her campaign manufactured or enabled the leaks. 4) Russia...does it matter? Putin aint being impeached.

1) Canada, the EU, Mexico and China are the enemy ! /s
2) Hint
Gaslight
Obstruct
Project <------ we are here now
3) Is that why Steele alerted the FBI and pass on the information ? LOCK HIM UP
4) But Russia is our friend now ? Its what friends do to friends /s

Come on Berzerker, I already said conspiracy charge requires Russia to have hacked Clinton at the request of Trump
As for the rest, Just messing with you Sorry if I came off like a stupid troll.

 

[Zkribbler]

We do have some idea, which is pretty much nothing.

How do you know this?

...indicting Russians that did not have an impact on anything.

How do you know this?

I can only surmise that J has a mole inside the Mueller team.

 

[Birdjaguar]

And then there will be money laundering.

 

[Berzerker]

How do you know this?

How do you know this?

I can only surmise that J has a mole inside the Mueller team.

Based on the track record of indictments. They're getting people for other stuff.

1) Canada, the EU, Mexico and China are the enemy ! /s

The enemy is who Congress declares war on according to the Constitution

2) Hint
Gaslight
Obstruct
Project <------ we are here now
3) Is that why Steele alerted the FBI and pass on the information ? LOCK HIM UP
4) But Russia is our friend now ? Its what friends do to friends /s

If Hillary paid for Steele's research, did she authorize leaking it to the FBI? She was leaking it... Thats why she called Trump a Russian puppet in a debate, she had the Steele Dossier and Putin had her emails. But so far I dont see any evidence Trump paid for it. Putin had it in for her regardless of the GOP nominee.

Come on Berzerker, I already said conspiracy charge requires Russia to have hacked Clinton at the request of Trump. As for the rest, Just messing with you Sorry if I came off like a stupid troll.

You didn't

And then there will be money laundering.

Yup... I dont know how far Mueller's mandate goes, but Trump's financing etc should be a goldmine

 

[FriendlyFire]

Clearly Marco Rubio is another Clinton Deep state agent LOCK HIM UP /s
The stuff unearth was so alarming that Steele himself alerted the FBI

Anyways Mueller will certainly unearth Trumps secrets, criminal activities I dont see why Trump is so Pro-Russian while attacking all of US traditional allies

During the Republican primaries, a research firm called Fusion GPS was hired by The Washington Free Beacon, a conservative website, to unearth potentially damaging information about Mr. Trump. The Free Beacon — which was funded by a major donor supporting Mr. Trump’s rival for the party’s nomination, Senator Marco Rubio of Florida

 

[Camikaze]

My understanding of 'high crimes and misdemeanours' from listening to Noah Feldman is that a) a 'high crime and misdemeanour' is not necessarily a crime, and b) a crime is not necessarily a 'high crime and misdemeanour'. It's about activities which constitute an abuse of office, so e.g. money laundering committed 10 years ago would not be an impeachable offence, because it has nothing to do with abuse of office.

 

[Zkribbler]

I don't see any evidence Trump paid for it.

Trump gave Putin his soul, backing Putin on Crimea & on eastern Ukraine, failing to enact Congress's sanctions, praising Putin & Russia's military "strength," refusing to acknowledge Russia's meddling in our campaign, giving Russia Israel's top secret info, parroting RT's talking points. Trump has made himself Putin's poodle.